A different Finnish War
- Thread starter von Adler
- Start date
I wonder how Norway will be added, will it be as more provinces to the west or will it be more-or-less like the OTL personal union? Also, what constitutes Norway? just the OTL bit or will the Atlanic islands be included? They were brought into Denmark-Norway by Norway after all.
If there is a war in 1812 between France and Russia there is now a bigger chance that Sweden will interveen on France side. OTL when France attacked newly elected crown prince Bernadotte opted to stay out of the conflict when France invaded despite Napoleon promissed Finland back. He could see that if Finland were recovered there would be a new war with Russia down the line and instead made plans against Norway.
Nope, I do not think so. Gustav IV Adolf is staunchly anti-bonpartist and will not ally with Napoleon at all.
Up next will be the events in the Peninsular War and the Norwegian campaign.
I wonder if, now that the Russians are defeated, the British troops that were guarding the border will be withdrawn to take part in the Peninsular campaign. That would make sense, since all the Swedes really need the British for is naval support in the form of transports and warships. That would also give the Peninsular campaign an extra kick, since the British have been doing just as well as OTL without those extra troops.
Also, if they're going to annex Norway directly into Sweden, they will be facing some interesting times during an alt-1848. The Swedes will probably be forced to give Norway and Finland some autonomy, with local parliaments and control over domestic affairs. Sweden proper will probably swing back towards constitutional monarchy, as well.
Also, if they're going to annex Norway directly into Sweden, they will be facing some interesting times during an alt-1848. The Swedes will probably be forced to give Norway and Finland some autonomy, with local parliaments and control over domestic affairs. Sweden proper will probably swing back towards constitutional monarchy, as well.
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The winter lull.
The winter lull.
Despite more or less desperate Danish pleas for peace, Gustav IV Adolf refuses any envoys, stating that that since Denmark has chosen to side with the monster from Corsica, it must be punished, and Norway must be ripped from it, for Norway's sake, of course. The King, who has been less than popular for continuing his father's absolutist policies, is riding a wave of popularity after the victory in the war against the Russians. Swift justice dealt to those who sided with the Russians and a victory with land regained have restored the glory of Sweden and especially the King. Who cares now about a effiminate flair for the dramatic, false thirst for glory and upheaval on the countryside from the land shifts?
Field Marshal af Klercker, in the meantime, is doing his best to reorganise the Swedish army for the upcoming campaign against Norway. Weeding out drunkards and incompetents among the officer corps, quietly promoting non-comissioned officers to officer status despite less than noble blood or no connections to speak of. With Armfeldt, von Döbeln and Sandels as his co-conspirators, af Klercker is determined to reshape the Swedish army, using its strengths and compensating for its weaknesses.
The Swedish artillery is mobile, nimble and superb when using 'geschwinda' shots to directly support the infantry. During the winter, the officers debate wether or not artillery should be in central control or be left to battalion commanders. Central control seem to be the trend in Europe, but the continental armies use heavier artillery with much longer range - the Swedish 3pdrs using reduced powder 'geschwinda' shots have a max range of only abut 300 yards, and at that distance, hitting is iffy at best, as the 'geschwinda' shots are standardised and not made individually for each gun with its own characteristics. After some discussions, the officers agree that Swedish artillery should be decentralised attachements to battalions. Each infantry battalion should have one gun attached and the artillerymen should train infantrymen to help them handling the gun and act as replacements should the artillerymen face casualties when trying to fire point blank at the enemy (like at Svartholma).
The four officers are of differing views when it comes to the usage of troops. Sandels is decidedly manouverist and claims that light troops - Jägare and light cavalry - is essential to screen, recon and skirmish. He points to his own experiences against de Tolly behind the Russian lines as well as Bonaparte's great victory at Austerlitz, where his Hussars allowed him to move the main body of his army without being detected by the Russians or Austrians. While af Klercker agrees, his main concern is firepower. Decentralising the artillery is perhaps good, but better drill, to allow Swedish line infantry to stand muzzle to muzzle with the enemy is necessary. Also, establishing a heavy or at least medium artillery, or in lack of such, at least having a centralised artillery staff to handle supply and coordinating a 'grand battery' or moving attached guns from parts of the line where they are not needed to parts where they are needed needs to be focused upon. As the commanding officer, af Klercker of course gets what he wants. The army will train during the winter, and improvement of the rate of fire will be the primary goal.
Döbeln is primarily concerned with the defence of Finland and providing the army there with a full component of troop branches. There's too little cavalry and artillery in Finland, and the army there must be able to fight independently, as winter stops movement of reinforcements from Sweden. Döbeln is under no illusion that the Russians will not be back again. Providing the army with possible replacements is an issue too. Taken into effect, a Dragoon regiment is raised in the newly re-acquired Nyslott county while a company of the artillery regiment is moved to Åbo to provide Finland with artillery and the Finnish regiments with some men to train them in artillery usage. Of course supply production facilities - artillery repair workshops, powder production, ball casting, 'geschwinda' shot production facilities will of course also be established, but it will be a few years before all these are available. An artillery officer's school is attached to the Åbo Akademi university too.
The second step in Döbeln's plan is to formalise the femmänninge, varangering and militia system. From now on, the Swedish army will consist of several echelons.
First, the professionals. The Artillery, the Guard and the Supply and Administrative Service.
Then the indelta part-time soldiers. Men who get a small tenant farm for serving, and are drilled two days every two weeks, and a week every six months, with a larger two-week exercise yearly.
Then the varangering and femmänninge soldiers. Previously, when the indelta soldiers marched away, the administrative parts of their units would start commandeer men to train replacements, called femänninge (if raised as an independent unit) or varangering (if raised as replacements). The system will now be formalised so that there will be a "shadow" army of equal size that can either be used to replace the indelta soldiers who fall in combat or by disease (evicting the widow and children from the tenant farm) or to raise new units.
The militia system will be formalised and used nationally as nationalbeväringen. All able-bodied men are required to train with arms. Those that volunteer can be moved to the "shadow" army. Others are only required to fight if the enemy arrives at their home county.
Armfeldt agrees with Döbeln that the soldier material and training must increse. He also argues that the organisation of the army should be restructured. While the Swedish army is too small to organise corps like the French one, it should organise divisions along the lines of corps, so that they can act independently. His own troubles, leading inexperienced troops that were unable to disengage because no artillery or cavalry support could be brought in properly and the shameful rout that was the result at Svartholma must be avoided.
When spring 1809 arrives, a fit and strong Swedish army stands ready at the Norwegian border, and many changes have already started to have effect. Corruption, defeatism, incompetence and drunkenness is being weeded out. Many officers have been forced to retire, the supply service have been restructured and streamlined, the divisions re-organised to contain artillery, cavalry and jägare along the infantry and the men have been drilled, drilled again and drilled yet again. It is a confident army, decently well supplied, well-trained and well-equipped that replaces Moore's men along the border as the lobsters march south to be shipped out to be deployed in Portugal.
The winter lull.
Despite more or less desperate Danish pleas for peace, Gustav IV Adolf refuses any envoys, stating that that since Denmark has chosen to side with the monster from Corsica, it must be punished, and Norway must be ripped from it, for Norway's sake, of course. The King, who has been less than popular for continuing his father's absolutist policies, is riding a wave of popularity after the victory in the war against the Russians. Swift justice dealt to those who sided with the Russians and a victory with land regained have restored the glory of Sweden and especially the King. Who cares now about a effiminate flair for the dramatic, false thirst for glory and upheaval on the countryside from the land shifts?
Field Marshal af Klercker, in the meantime, is doing his best to reorganise the Swedish army for the upcoming campaign against Norway. Weeding out drunkards and incompetents among the officer corps, quietly promoting non-comissioned officers to officer status despite less than noble blood or no connections to speak of. With Armfeldt, von Döbeln and Sandels as his co-conspirators, af Klercker is determined to reshape the Swedish army, using its strengths and compensating for its weaknesses.
The Swedish artillery is mobile, nimble and superb when using 'geschwinda' shots to directly support the infantry. During the winter, the officers debate wether or not artillery should be in central control or be left to battalion commanders. Central control seem to be the trend in Europe, but the continental armies use heavier artillery with much longer range - the Swedish 3pdrs using reduced powder 'geschwinda' shots have a max range of only abut 300 yards, and at that distance, hitting is iffy at best, as the 'geschwinda' shots are standardised and not made individually for each gun with its own characteristics. After some discussions, the officers agree that Swedish artillery should be decentralised attachements to battalions. Each infantry battalion should have one gun attached and the artillerymen should train infantrymen to help them handling the gun and act as replacements should the artillerymen face casualties when trying to fire point blank at the enemy (like at Svartholma).
The four officers are of differing views when it comes to the usage of troops. Sandels is decidedly manouverist and claims that light troops - Jägare and light cavalry - is essential to screen, recon and skirmish. He points to his own experiences against de Tolly behind the Russian lines as well as Bonaparte's great victory at Austerlitz, where his Hussars allowed him to move the main body of his army without being detected by the Russians or Austrians. While af Klercker agrees, his main concern is firepower. Decentralising the artillery is perhaps good, but better drill, to allow Swedish line infantry to stand muzzle to muzzle with the enemy is necessary. Also, establishing a heavy or at least medium artillery, or in lack of such, at least having a centralised artillery staff to handle supply and coordinating a 'grand battery' or moving attached guns from parts of the line where they are not needed to parts where they are needed needs to be focused upon. As the commanding officer, af Klercker of course gets what he wants. The army will train during the winter, and improvement of the rate of fire will be the primary goal.
Döbeln is primarily concerned with the defence of Finland and providing the army there with a full component of troop branches. There's too little cavalry and artillery in Finland, and the army there must be able to fight independently, as winter stops movement of reinforcements from Sweden. Döbeln is under no illusion that the Russians will not be back again. Providing the army with possible replacements is an issue too. Taken into effect, a Dragoon regiment is raised in the newly re-acquired Nyslott county while a company of the artillery regiment is moved to Åbo to provide Finland with artillery and the Finnish regiments with some men to train them in artillery usage. Of course supply production facilities - artillery repair workshops, powder production, ball casting, 'geschwinda' shot production facilities will of course also be established, but it will be a few years before all these are available. An artillery officer's school is attached to the Åbo Akademi university too.
The second step in Döbeln's plan is to formalise the femmänninge, varangering and militia system. From now on, the Swedish army will consist of several echelons.
First, the professionals. The Artillery, the Guard and the Supply and Administrative Service.
Then the indelta part-time soldiers. Men who get a small tenant farm for serving, and are drilled two days every two weeks, and a week every six months, with a larger two-week exercise yearly.
Then the varangering and femmänninge soldiers. Previously, when the indelta soldiers marched away, the administrative parts of their units would start commandeer men to train replacements, called femänninge (if raised as an independent unit) or varangering (if raised as replacements). The system will now be formalised so that there will be a "shadow" army of equal size that can either be used to replace the indelta soldiers who fall in combat or by disease (evicting the widow and children from the tenant farm) or to raise new units.
The militia system will be formalised and used nationally as nationalbeväringen. All able-bodied men are required to train with arms. Those that volunteer can be moved to the "shadow" army. Others are only required to fight if the enemy arrives at their home county.
Armfeldt agrees with Döbeln that the soldier material and training must increse. He also argues that the organisation of the army should be restructured. While the Swedish army is too small to organise corps like the French one, it should organise divisions along the lines of corps, so that they can act independently. His own troubles, leading inexperienced troops that were unable to disengage because no artillery or cavalry support could be brought in properly and the shameful rout that was the result at Svartholma must be avoided.
When spring 1809 arrives, a fit and strong Swedish army stands ready at the Norwegian border, and many changes have already started to have effect. Corruption, defeatism, incompetence and drunkenness is being weeded out. Many officers have been forced to retire, the supply service have been restructured and streamlined, the divisions re-organised to contain artillery, cavalry and jägare along the infantry and the men have been drilled, drilled again and drilled yet again. It is a confident army, decently well supplied, well-trained and well-equipped that replaces Moore's men along the border as the lobsters march south to be shipped out to be deployed in Portugal.
Those reforms sound very good. With the British blockade on Denmark still continuing, the Swedes should be able to take Norway relatively easily.
First, thanks for an very interesting TL 
Why? Very much in this time of history was about keeping balance. OTL Sweden did not get promisses of Norway befor Finland were lost. A Sweden with both Finland and Norway is severly upseting the balance in the north.
I must say that I find this peace kinda hard to belive, if it does not also include Denmark-Norway. As I see it, both Russia and Britain would demand it.
Other than that, please carry on with your excellent TL.
Im wondering too
Yes, I agree. At this point Sweden can "absorb" Norway quite easily if they act apropriate...
PS: Could you please add a map of the gains in Finland after the peace?
Why? Very much in this time of history was about keeping balance. OTL Sweden did not get promisses of Norway befor Finland were lost. A Sweden with both Finland and Norway is severly upseting the balance in the north.
I must say that I find this peace kinda hard to belive, if it does not also include Denmark-Norway. As I see it, both Russia and Britain would demand it.
Other than that, please carry on with your excellent TL.
Im wondering too
Yes, I agree. At this point Sweden can "absorb" Norway quite easily if they act apropriate...
PS: Could you please add a map of the gains in Finland after the peace?
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The Brits want the war to end, they cannot be seen to sell out Sweden as they are trying to drum together another coaltion and woo Spain away from Napoleon and keep Portugal in their camp, yet they cannot pressure the Russians too much either as they want them in the next coalition against Napoleon. What do do? Promising Sweden Norway is a good way to give the Swedes something without alienating Russia too much.
Denmark is hardly in a position to oppose it, and they are allied to Napoleon and thus an enemy. British diplomacy at this time was not only aimed at balance, but also building a reputation as a trustworthy ally, to be able to build coalitions against any power that rises too far. It is a tradition of the British to reward their allies with their own or others territory in this era.
Prussia is currently over-run and under Napoleon's thumb. While Sweden is too small to punch at Prussia's level, propping it up is a replacement in northern Europe, even if temporary (the lighter weight also makes Sweden less likely to go on foreign adventures without British approval, which is good).
Denmark-Norway is not included, because they would not cede Norway with it unconquered. Russia is rather fed up with Napoleon and his allies, as they provided no help in the war and is not helping against the Ottomans either. Sweden has demanded Norway for peace, and Denmark has refused, still hoping for another peace.
Denmark is hardly in a position to oppose it, and they are allied to Napoleon and thus an enemy. British diplomacy at this time was not only aimed at balance, but also building a reputation as a trustworthy ally, to be able to build coalitions against any power that rises too far. It is a tradition of the British to reward their allies with their own or others territory in this era.
Prussia is currently over-run and under Napoleon's thumb. While Sweden is too small to punch at Prussia's level, propping it up is a replacement in northern Europe, even if temporary (the lighter weight also makes Sweden less likely to go on foreign adventures without British approval, which is good).
Denmark-Norway is not included, because they would not cede Norway with it unconquered. Russia is rather fed up with Napoleon and his allies, as they provided no help in the war and is not helping against the Ottomans either. Sweden has demanded Norway for peace, and Denmark has refused, still hoping for another peace.
Like what?
Even IOTL there was a bit of opposition and that was with Norway remaining Norway.
I recall a earlier time, the war where Sweden took Skane IIRC, they also took some Norwegian provinces...only for them to revolt away.
The Norwegians seem quite determined not to be Swedish.
The same area lost 1743 was regained 1808.
Von Adler...in this ATL you have neatly tied the the Anglo Danish Conflict and The Swedish-Russian Conflict into a single joint conflict so there can be no separate peace. Russia simply wouldn't accept it no matter how annoyed they are with the French. As for the Danes, they are allies of Napoleon more by accident of necessity rather than desire. They would have preferred a course of complete neutrality as I know you are well aware.
Demands for Norway would have been seen as perposterously outrageous at this point by all parties except Gustaf IV.
The British will not defend the border with Norway forever, and the Russians can sit on the defensive in Vyborg if needed and wait the Swedes out until the Brits become too impatient with the Swedes for the unreasonable demands.
If the Danes were asking for peace they would have obtained it on a basis of Status quo antebellum. and on condition they leave the Continental system.
If the Swedes had rejected it, the British would simply have walked and left them to their fate.
Its far more likely peace would not have come until the fall of Vyborg and the Swedes denied Norway would have insisted on Osel and Dago ( or in lieu of, heavy reparations as ransom to get them back). At least there they would control them so the demands are reasonable.
@von A
I think your TL is quite good and you should by all means do what you want with it. Im just nitpicking...
If Sweden behaves apropriatley and handles the takeover of Norway sensible, I do not think it is impossible to make the "merge" stick. If Gustaf IV can pull it of is a entierly different matter.
The keywords here are apropriatley and sensible...
Also keep in mind that the situation in TTL 1808 is wastly different versus OTL 1814.
Agree
I think your TL is quite good and you should by all means do what you want with it. Im just nitpicking...
If Sweden behaves apropriatley and handles the takeover of Norway sensible, I do not think it is impossible to make the "merge" stick. If Gustaf IV can pull it of is a entierly different matter.
The keywords here are apropriatley and sensible...
Also keep in mind that the situation in TTL 1808 is wastly different versus OTL 1814.
Agree
Why would the Russians not accept it? The Danes signed a separate peace with Sweden OTL, and the Russians had no great problems with that (perhaps because they were winning) and did nothing to give Denmark anything in their own peace later, when they took Finland. I have seen no evidence why the Russians, as unwilling allies of Napoleon as Denmark, would stick to the alliance with Denmark-Norway.
As for the demand of Norway, it was not outrageous in 1814, so why should it be in 1808? As I have explained, the British cannot afford to be seen abandoning allies at this time. Gustav IV Adolf is obnoxious, but he is also the only continental ally the British have that have consistently stood against Napoleon. If the British feed him to the sharks because he's being obnoxious, they will probably have problems forming a Sixth Coalition - at this time, the British army in Portugal is holding on for its dear life as Napoleon himself is rushing through Spain. What will the Portugese and Spaniards (including La Romana, who probably commands the only Spanish army in the field able to face the French) if the British throw their allies to the sharks? They would start looking for ways out, and the British know this.
As for the Russians, sure, they can wait, but the war is an embarrassment, they have a war against the Ottomans to fight, and the presence of the Royal Navy in the Baltic is doing major damage to their economy - they never really wanted the war in the first place and gets off rather cheaply. It was unlikely that they would be able to raise and move an army to Viborg before it fell, and taking their only two able commanders in the field and only larger trained force with them - the ~45 000 men in Estonia and Livonia were mostly garrison troops badly trained in field combat.
I assume that Vismar and Vorpommern would not
be traded away since there are no need for it.
be traded away since there are no need for it.