A China-like Europe?

[Mirza Khan]

I've been reading my first book on Chinese history lately, and a question struck me-why didn't Europe have a China-like state? By this, I mean, a state that would extend over most or all of the territory in Europe, be overwhelmingly dominant (politically, religiously, militarily, and culturally) in its region, and, most important, have a strong tendency, after every collapse, to eventually re-form in roughly its old territory. The closest Europe had to such a thing was the Roman Empire, but it only covered half of Europe, and was never really put back together again after it broke apart, (though the idea certainly lasted a long time).

So, is the existence of an entity like I described possible in Europe? And what OTL state has the best chance of giving birth to it? (My idea was a Carolingian empire that escapes permanent division in the Treaty of Verdun and goes on to conquer Spain and Italy-it would probably call itself the "Roman Empire")

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

You have Rome or a longer-lasting Carolingian empire.

 

[stevep]

Mirza Khan

If you go for a Med based rather than a Europe based state then Rome came close and the idea of a universal state lasted for some time after the western empire collapsed.

Possibly the key point was the rise of Christianity, followed by that of Islam. The former made virtually certain the destruction of the old empire and virtually impossible the recreation of a replacement by it's fissile nature. Islam compounded this by it's conquest of much of the basin, but not completely so. Hence the former unifying factor of cheap, reliable sea travel became a hotly disputed region of conflict between multiple bitterly hostile factions.

In China, while often much of the population was non-Han, the culture and aspirations of many, including many incomers, was to reunify and restore the empire and society that had gone before. Here Confucianism and later Budhish help [most of the time anyway], to unite rather than divide.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm one of the school that believe monolithic states will be bias towards autocracy and conservatism. While the prolonged political division in Europe meant much conflict it enabled the development of the concept of individual rights because states needed the loyalty and support of their subjects to succeed. [Also even at their height, the various great Chinese empires often contained a lot of destruction and suffering]

Steve

I've been reading my first book on Chinese history lately, and a question struck me-why didn't Europe have a China-like state? By this, I mean, a state that would extend over most or all of the territory in Europe, be overwhelmingly dominant (politically, religiously, militarily, and culturally) in its region, and, most important, have a strong tendency, after every collapse, to eventually re-form in roughly its old territory. The closest Europe had to such a thing was the Roman Empire, but it only covered half of Europe, and was never really put back together again after it broke apart, (though the idea certainly lasted a long time).

So, is the existence of an entity like I described possible in Europe? And what OTL state has the best chance of giving birth to it? (My idea was a Carolingian empire that escapes permanent division in the Treaty of Verdun and goes on to conquer Spain and Italy-it would probably call itself the "Roman Empire")

 

[Mikestone8]

Keep the Western Empire going another couple of Centuries, until the Arab invasions. Then have the Arabs take over the whole Empire as a going concern rather than dismembering it. The Germanic Barbarians are converted to Islam, or whatever religion the Arabs have adopted on this TL. You get a Caliphate of "Rum", based on Constantinople as the OE was, but not estranged from Europe by a religious divide, so able to absorb more of it than OTL's Turks could.

 

[Rakhasa]

Keep the Western Empire going another couple of Centuries, until the Arab invasions. Then have the Arabs take over the whole Empire as a going concern rather than dismembering it. The Germanic Barbarians are converted to Islam, or whatever religion the Arabs have adopted on this TL. You get a Caliphate of "Rum", based on Constantinople as the OE was, but not estranged from Europe by a religious divide, so able to absorb more of it than OTL's Turks could.

Actually, since the "Arab Empire" is a pretty rare if not unique event (some underpopulated, semi nomadic tribe conquering half the wolrd, we are talking about the arabian coasts here, not the endless asian steppes!) in most timelines it would be butterflied.

But the catholic church itself offers an excelent structure for an empire: A common religion (well, duh!), a common language, an excellent provincial sistem (diocesis, archidioceis and primatures) than can easily expand -as it has done OTL to cover literally the planet-, a clear and mostly stable election system for a new ruler. A change sometime before the fall of the west, and we could create a Pope/Emperor/Caliph position, than could take over the Empire. The bishops would secularize, or equivalent secular positions -hereditary, appointed ot any combination- and we would have a stable structure.

The _empire_ itself would not be stable, of course, some centuries the Pope is a mere figurehead under a "shogun" like the Japanese Warior States, some centuries he is a absolutist Sun King, some centuries the empire is broken into warlord in a cosntant civil war -but unlike OTL civil wars, those warlords eventual aim ouwld be to kake over the EMpire itself, the way chine always reformed after its civil war decades.

 

[Metro]

Chinese had one thing going for them. They were majority Han. Most other groups got absorbed by them and in time became Han themselves.

And

Despite the existence of many dialects of Chinese spoken languages, one factor in Han ethnic unity is the Chinese written language, which has a unified standard form, regardless of local variations. This unity is credited to the Qin dynasty which unified the various forms of writing that existed in China at that time. For thousands of years, Literary Chinese was used as the standard written format, which used vocabulary and grammar significantly different from the various forms of spoken Chinese

 

[Prem_Rack]

Possibly the key point was the rise of Christianity, followed by that of Islam. The former made virtually certain the destruction of the old empire

Wait what?
Late antique Christianity readily embraced the imperial ideas. If anything, it provided unity and cohesion Rome lacked earlier. It was only the significant defeats in the early 5th centurion which made the Church recognize the danger of relying on the support of single temporal power.

 

[Falastur]

Didn't the influx of tribes in the era of the decline of the Roman Empire essentially ensure that there were enough ethnicly diverse states that a single Kingdom was unlikely to become both universal and permanent?

 

[King Gorilla]

Chinese had one thing going for them. They were majority Han. Most other groups got absorbed by them and in time became Han themselves.

And

Why couldn't most of the Mediterranean basin come to think of itself as Roman? It would do wonders to solve the problems of nationalism, and it would give imperial aspirants a powerful incentive to pursue empire during the inevitable "warring states" periods.

 

[Prem_Rack]

Didn't the influx of tribes in the era of the decline of the Roman Empire essentially ensure that there were enough ethnicly diverse states that a single Kingdom was unlikely to become both universal and permanent?

The tribes were a small rulling elite, e.g. Visigoths were about 1-2% of population of their realm. Majority of population was still (Gallo, Hispano)-Roman.

 

[Eurofed]

I've been reading my first book on Chinese history lately, and a question struck me-why didn't Europe have a China-like state? By this, I mean, a state that would extend over most or all of the territory in Europe, be overwhelmingly dominant (politically, religiously, militarily, and culturally) in its region, and, most important, have a strong tendency, after every collapse, to eventually re-form in roughly its old territory. The closest Europe had to such a thing was the Roman Empire, but it only covered half of Europe, and was never really put back together again after it broke apart, (though the idea certainly lasted a long time).

So, is the existence of an entity like I described possible in Europe? And what OTL state has the best chance of giving birth to it? (My idea was a Carolingian empire that escapes permanent division in the Treaty of Verdun and goes on to conquer Spain and Italy-it would probably call itself the "Roman Empire")

A successful Carolingian Empire was a rather good candidate (btw, they already owned northern Italy).

An even much better one is a Roman Empire that conquers Germania and Mesopotamia early on. There are very very good chances that by doing so, it achieves the "critical mass" to do exactly what you describe. See here, here, here, and here for discussion of the issue and development of the scenario.

 

[The Kiat]

If Rome lasted as long as China, then after all these centuries, the conquered peoples would have been assimilated. Also, if the Franks didn't get into the habit of dividing their realms between sons, then perhaps Europe would not be called France. But after that... nations begin to develop, cultures branch out, and you have several equal populations of various peoples, and that makes assimilation by one of them much more difficult.

 

[Paul Spring]

I agree that the two most likely candidates would be a longer-lived Roman Empire that expanded further into northern Europe, or centuries later, a longer-lived Carolingian Empire that did not fragment and ultimately created a revival of trade and learning.

Ethnic diversity isn't necessarily an obstacle to unity if different ethnic groups come to think of themselves as all part of a larger community. The Romans achieved this in much, probably most, of their empire - if it had lasted longer in western Europe, the sense of a common Roman identity would only have gotten stronger. The Frankish/Carolingian Empire might have been able to achieve the same thing if it had a longer period of stable existence.

 

[Eldritch Po l i t b u ro]

the physical geography of europe provides for many more defensible areas. it is easier for a single group to take over most of china. there are fewer major peninsulas, major islands, divisive mountain ranges, etc. More independent cultures were able to develop within their own parts of europe while the chinese factions eventually were brought back into the fold.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Unity is sacred in China. It's the goal of all devout Confucianist to achieve a unified harmonious state. I can't stress this enough because China is often mistakenly thought of as non-religious. The Emperor is a god, the Son of Heaven. Without unity, the ruler is merely a king, not the Chosen One. From ancient times on, the people expect to be ruled by the Son of Heaven, not some lowly king. Even now, a unified civilizational state is essential to the Chinese identity.

Imagine if Christianity mandated that all Christiandom must be ruled by one supernatural being or you would be failures as Christians.

It also helps that ethnic identity is highly flexible. You are a Han if you speak Chinese and use chopsticks.

 

[Rex Romanum]

The tribes were a small rulling elite, e.g. Visigoths were about 1-2% of population of their realm. Majority of population was still (Gallo, Hispano)-Roman.

Yeah, but overtime the ruling-class would become the majority through assimilation and inter-marriage...
(majority culturally and socially, but not genetically)
A good example is present-day French...genetically they are more "Gallo-Roman" rather than "Frankish", but culturally and socially it is the opposite...
I have to agree that the partition of Europe by Germanic tribes was pretty much dooming Europe into disintegration and division...undoing what the Romans nearly achieved...

 

[Mikestone8]

Actually, since the "Arab Empire" is a pretty rare if not unique event (some underpopulated, semi nomadic tribe conquering half the wolrd, we are talking about the arabian coasts here, not the endless asian steppes!) in most timelines it would be butterflied.

Nomadic and semi-nomadic peoples were on the move just about everywhere in that era. Is there any particular reason for the Arabs to be an exception?

Muhammad, of course, may well be butterflied, but that probably just means that some other religious leader emerges in his place. The Arabs were obviously ready for such a one, or he wouldn't have succeeded the way he did.

 

[Rakhasa]

Nomadic and semi-nomadic peoples were on the move just about everywhere in that era. Is there any particular reason for the Arabs to be an exception?

They were on the move, but they did not conquer from Spain to India. The Arabs were few (Arabia is not exactly a breeding ground for Imperial Armies). They managed it thanks to a series of factors, religion being one the most importants, of course, but which would be difficult to repeat.

 

[Mikestone8]

They were on the move, but they did not conquer from Spain to India. The Arabs were few (Arabia is not exactly a breeding ground for Imperial Armies). They managed it thanks to a series of factors, religion being one the most importants, of course, but which would be difficult to repeat.

OTOH, if Mumammad is butterflied away, they may well embrace the Monophysite Christianity practised in neighbouring countries like Egypt, Syria and Abyssinia. So once those countries were taken, a unified state would be quite likely, esp as Egypt and Syria had been previously united under the Romans. And iirc there was also a significant Monophysite minority even in Constantinople and Asia Minor, so they'd have a "fifth column" there which Islam lacked. So instead of a Caliphate you may get an Arab Emperor of Constantinople, who presses on to reconquer the west, with Arabs playing the part in his army that Germans, Huns etc had done in earlier Roman armies.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think a centralized Holy Roman Empire might do the job.