447: Attila Captures Constantinople?

[Communist Wizard]

And a map three years after from wiki.

 

[Valdemar II]

This struck me odd, though.
You said the Vandals were in Maghreb. Why have a Latin-speaking country?

Because it already had a large Latin population (completely dominated the cities, coast and had large rural enclaves) and only the rural population spoke the original punic (a semitic language). Latins position as status languages meant that Punic would likely had died out before the 10th century, only the Arabic invasion stopped that and later assimilated Punic.

 

[Communist Wizard]

Because it already had a large Latin population (completely dominated the cities, coast and had large rural enclaves) and only the rural population spoke the original punic (a semitic language). Latins position as status languages meant that Punic would likely had died out before the 10th century, only the Arabic invasion stopped that and later assimilated Punic.

Aha. But North Africa would still be Vandal, yes?
So we have generally, Gothic Empire in the ERE, with Egypt being 'Roman'. North Africa is vandal. Italy will apparently become Burgundian...

 

[Valdemar II]

Aha. But North Africa would still be Vandal, yes?
So we have generally, Gothic Empire in the ERE, with Egypt being 'Roman'. North Africa is vandal. Italy will apparently become Burgundian...

It should be said, when I say Latin I mean Vulgar Latin like French and Spanish.
Both the Vandals and Burgundians lacked the population to a linguistic takeover, in a century or two their languages will be dead, but the local languages will likely have adopted a lot of word from them, but both will have a lot more influence on their respective states cultures, with converting the local to Arianism and making a martial lifestyle a status lifestyle afforded only by the nobles.

The Burgudians will likely turn Italy into a feudal network of citistates (in a few centuries), while the Vandal will end up with a centralised empire.

 

[Communist Wizard]

It should be said, when I say Latin I mean Vulgar Latin like French and Spanish.
Both the Vandals and Burgundians lacked the population to a linguistic takeover, in a century or two their languages will be dead, but the local languages will likely have adopted a lot of word from them, but both will have a lot more influence on their respective states cultures, with converting the local to Arianism and making a martial lifestyle a status lifestyle afforded only by the nobles.

The Burgudians will likely turn Italy into a feudal network of citistates (in a few centuries), while the Vandal will end up with a centralised empire.

And the Gothic Empire would probbably be forced to be centralised because of Persians and Aegyptians knocking on the doorstep.
What about the Hun-Gothic Relationship? Direct vassal sliding to tributary sliding to nominal status and then complete independence?

 

[Valdemar II]

And the Gothic Empire would probbably be forced to be centralised because of Persians and Aegyptians knocking on the doorstep.

Yes but also because their new territorium lend itself to centralisation

What about the Hun-Gothic Relationship? Direct vassal sliding to tributary sliding to nominal status and then complete independence?

Independent Gothic state from the start of Thracian settlement, likely they will pay tribute to the Huns until Attilas death, but the Huns will disappear as threat in less than 40 years, and it likely the surviving Huns will end up as mercenaries for the Ostrogoths after their defeat (likely by the Gepids) and assimilate into the Gothic population.

 

[Communist Wizard]

Yes but also because their new territorium lend itself to centralisation



Independent Gothic state from the start of Thracian settlement, likely they will pay tribute to the Huns until Attilas death, but the Huns will disappear as threat in less than 40 years, and it likely the surviving Huns will end up as mercenaries for the Ostrogoths after their defeat (likely by the Gepids) and assimilate into the Gothic population.

Also, what of the process of absorbing Byzantium? Would it be quick to conquer?
What wouldd be the borders to the East (fairly obvious) and West (??).

 

[Philip]

There are some interesting ideas in this thread, but there're some things to consider.

If Attila sack Constatinoble it open up Thrace to a Ostrogothic Kingdom either as a Hunnic vassal or as Roman confederalis.

Not really. The Ostrogoths consolidated from several groups of Goths living under Attila's domination. It is unlikely that the Huns would allow such a kingdom to coalesce after dedicating so much effort to dismantling the Gothic hierarchy. Even after the collapse of the Huns, the Goths of Thrace and Pannonia should little interest in working together. It was only when Roman machinations threatened to destroy the Goths did they come together.

while Anatolian will end up being ruled by the Goths,

If the Huns let them go.

of course religeous westen Anatolian will likely turn Arian*, which could result in a linguistic takeover by the Goth, in the same way the Turks did.

Not necessarily. There are some major differences between the Goths and Turks. Iberia or Gaul may be a better model for what would happen in Anatolia.

The Goths were not really interested in converting Nicene Christians to their semi-Arian faith. OTL, both the Ostrogoths and Visigoths used religion as a way of separating the ruling elite from the ruled. I don't realy see any reason for this to change. To a lesser extent, the same could be said of the Gothic language.

There is also the matter of populations. There are just too many Romans for the Goths to assimilate, especially given the way they tended to adopt Roman practices and culture OTL. Both the Visigoths and Franks were largely assimilated by the populations they conquered.

When the Turks arrived, Anatolia's population had been greatly reduced.

Independent Gothic state from the start of Thracian settlement, likely they will pay tribute to the Huns until Attilas death,

I don't see where this independent Gothic state is coming from. At the time, the Goths in the East were under Hunnic domination. The Huns were very good at keeping their subjected peoples divided.

but the Huns will disappear as threat in less than 40 years

Why's that? Is it required that they fall apart as in OTL?

 

[mattep74]

I have to say I don't see it. Constantinople has been taken by a fully foreign force only once, in 1453. And they had cannons. And the Empire consisted of . . . nothing but The City.

Constantinople also had more money than Attila can even understand, so they drown him in gold if they think the walls won't be repaired fast enough.

So the sack of Constantinople by crusaders in 1100 or 1200 didnt happen?

 

[Communist Wizard]

There are some interesting ideas in this thread, but there're some things to consider.



Not really. The Ostrogoths consolidated from several groups of Goths living under Attila's domination. It is unlikely that the Huns would allow such a kingdom to coalesce after dedicating so much effort to dismantling the Gothic hierarchy. Even after the collapse of the Huns, the Goths of Thrace and Pannonia should little interest in working together. It was only when Roman machinations threatened to destroy the Goths did they come together.



If the Huns let them go.

Not necessarily. There are some major differences between the Goths and Turks. Iberia or Gaul may be a better model for what would happen in Anatolia.

The Goths were not really interested in converting Nicene Christians to their semi-Arian faith. OTL, both the Ostrogoths and Visigoths used religion as a way of separating the ruling elite from the ruled. I don't realy see any reason for this to change. To a lesser extent, the same could be said of the Gothic language.

There is also the matter of populations. There are just too many Romans for the Goths to assimilate, especially given the way they tended to adopt Roman practices and culture OTL. Both the Visigoths and Franks were largely assimilated by the populations they conquered.

When the Turks arrived, Anatolia's population had been greatly reduced.



I don't see where this independent Gothic state is coming from. At the time, the Goths in the East were under Hunnic domination. The Huns were very good at keeping their subjected peoples divided.




Why's that? Is it required that they fall apart as in OTL?

Yes, it is required because I don't want this nomad empire in Eastern Europe.
I'd rather go with Valdemar's version, but also we can have a uniffied state because of Aegyptian, WRE, and Persian machinations.

 

[Jaydoh]

Why haven't I noticed this thread before? It so closely mirrors my own TL, as evidenced by the following:

This is probably more interesting.
Burgundian Italy? Gothic Turkey? Roman Egypt? Berber-Latin Tunisia? Check out 447!
Anyways, I might consider doing this... Feudal Europe would certainly be intreresting...

That's just creepy...'cause that's EXACTLY what I have going on (well, plus a whole bunch of other Thermo-esque stuff).