A Storm Over Okehazama: A Sengoku TL

[BBadolato]

Well this an idea I've had for my first timeline, I can only hope for the best, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, oddly enough I'm rather nervous about posting this, maybe because it's my first TL.

June 12 1560

It was a stormy and foreboding night, It was in a sharp contrast to the air of celebration that permeated the camp of Imagawa Yoshimoto, 9th head of the Imagawa Clan. All throughout his campaign into Owari, Yoshimoto had encountered resistance so pitiful, he wondered just how foolish The Fool of Owari, Nobunaga Oda truly was. Having heard the rumors of the disrespect he had shown at his father, Nobuhide’s funeral, and his erratic behavior, it seemed he lived up to his nickname. Yet he here was, invading Nobunaga’s land with Nobunaga not even bothering to fight. Perhaps the fool wasn't so foolish after all, although still foolish enough to not surrender to him. It made sense, he was Imagawa Yoshimoto of the Imagawa Clan, Daimyo of Suruga,Tomomi and Mikawa. His forces greatly outnumbered the Oda, who had yet to engage him in a serious battle, his victory was all but assured.

However this growing sense of unease made Yoshimoto wary, what if all of this alleged weakness was really a trap. Was the darkness of this storm was going to consume the lights of his camp,future, and possibly his life? Yoshimoto had decided to call several of his guards and officers, to tell his men to keep on their guard and be wary of a surprise attack, despite the atmosphere. [1]

(One hour earlier)

Oda Nobunaga had just finished his favorite line from Atsumori. “A man’s life of fifty years is nothing compared to the age of this world. Life is but a fleeting dream, an illusion, is their anything that lasts forever?” A statement that couldn't be more true. Nobunaga’s choices were grim: A frontal attack would be foolish, but neither could he hold the Imagawa off in a siege. His only alternative was a surprise attack on the Imagawa and hope it worked. Gathering a small force of 1500 men, Nobunaga set out to ambush the Imagawa army. Nobunaga, greatly outnumbered, had to make a daring gamble. Either he would defeat the Imagawa and rise to greatness or fade into the mists of history. Setting out under the cover of a thunderstorm he would begin his most important march of his life.

(Present)

Nobunaga and his men had made their way towards the Imagawa camp mounted on horseback. The Imagawa soldiers were still drunkenly celebrating. Seeing what appeared to weakest spot the of Imagawa army, Nobunaga began his assault. Things seemed to be progressing well the Imagawa forces seemed too drunk to retaliate and began to run away.

Yoshimoto’s instincts were proven right!!! The fool had dared to attack his main camp. Fortunately he had managed to rally several thousand of his men try and hold them off. Taking up his bow as one of the greatest archers in the land, he would personally make Nobunaga regret his decision. Yoshimoto had made Nobunaga’s figure out in darkness, taking aim he fired.

Nobunaga and his forces pushed on, apparently not all of Yoshimoto’s army were drunken sots. He would have to quickly deal with them, and hope to take Yoshimoto’s head. Nobunaga felt a searing pain in his abdomen, he was struck in the stomach by an arrow! Pulling back on his horse and looking in front of him, he saw Yoshimoto Imagawa readying another arrow to fire. Recalling his 26 years, the death of his father and the power struggles with his brothers, only for it to end now.[2] Life truly was an illusion, a fleeting dream under heaven.

Yoshimoto had fired his second shot. It pierced the armor around Nobunaga’s neck, seeing their lord personally kill Nobunaga, the Imagawa forces had fought with a renewed fury driving back and ultimately slaying the Oda forces. After the battle Yoshimoto had paid his respects to dead, for the men that his arrogance had gotten killed, as well the enemy who had risked it all in attempt to stop him.

[1] Yoshimoto was said to engage in habits of the aristocracy such as having blacked teeth and shaved eyebrows, and for what it was worth the Imagawa did have the lineage to become Shogun, so taking a bit of liberty I made Yoshimoto a bit arrogant, That is going to go away.

[2] This is the Main POD in OTL Nobunaga was able to catch the Imagawa main camp off guard and managed to kill Yoshimoto, which practically routed the much larger Imagawa forces. Here Nobunaga's not so lucky, with fatal consequences.

[3] Nobunaga's eccentric behavior didn't win him any favors with several of his retainers and vassals that many decided to support his brothers. This led to fights within the Oda clan that ultimately saw Nobunaga triumphant.

 

[tonsofun]

Could be interesting. Sengoku tl's are very rare here.

 

[mlp]

Interesting POD, keen to see how it goes.

 

[Tredecimus]

The Takeda clan is going to feel threatened by this event.

 

[ALF0N53]

Nobunaga nipped in the bud? Interesting...

 

[BBadolato]

The Takeda clan is going to feel threatened by this event.

Not really, The Takeda where in a marriage alliance with Yoshimoto, as well the Hojo clan. The Takeda also had to deal the Uesugi of Echigo.

 

[BBadolato]

A few concerns I have for my TL is what to do about the rest of the world, and how far should I go. With the rest the world I want to see a surviving Ivan Ivanovitch and more Eastern focused Russia, so subsequently a surviving Poland-Lithuania. Or should I just not really about now, but keep some mental notes to come back to.

Yet in areas where I may be so sure of the effects I don't want to have a massive butterfly net and have things go as in OTL. As for goals for just Japan, I want an Imagawa Shogunate that is much more different than the OTL Tokugawa, particularly no Sakoku. Yet at the same time I don't know what would be a decent direction, I don't want the Imjin War or any campaigns against China. Possibly as a spoiler for states in the Pacific, maybe get in on the colonial action in America?

 

[ALF0N53]

I think foreign expedition is inevitable. Once the Sengoku jidai ends, thousands of soldiers (samurais included) would be left jobless. That could mean trouble. And since China is the nearest to Japan, it's the most logical target.

About colonial adventures, that requires Japan to have a navy, obviously. So for that to happen, you'll have to let the Mori clan survive.

 

[Namayan]

I think foreign expedition is inevitable. Once the Sengoku jidai ends, thousands of soldiers (samurais included) would be left jobless. That could mean trouble. And since China is the nearest to Japan, it's the most logical target.

About colonial adventures, that requires Japan to have a navy, obviously. So for that to happen, you'll have to let the Mori clan survive.

It is not assured that japan will do so. Although trying to invade china may one of the outcomes that can happen to japan. However, japan need to conquer Korea before venturing to china. Also, japan is nowhere near the resources of china nor had any tech advantage with a pod 1600.

For any ambitious Japanese leader who wants to conquer China, in 1600, it was all ambition with no way of implementing it. A good comparison would be asking otl 1600 Switzerland to conquer otl 1600 France or otl present day Britain to conquer otl present day USA.

 

[mlp]

I think foreign expedition is inevitable. Once the Sengoku jidai ends, thousands of soldiers (samurais included) would be left jobless. That could mean trouble. And since China is the nearest to Japan, it's the most logical target.

About colonial adventures, that requires Japan to have a navy, obviously. So for that to happen, you'll have to let the Mori clan survive.

What can happen, however, with such an early POD, is that Korea actually becomes prepared and defends successfully early on. This will force the Japanese to concede and make sure their expansion will purely be commercial, not military.

 

[democracy101]

I think foreign expedition is inevitable. Once the Sengoku jidai ends, thousands of soldiers (samurais included) would be left jobless. That could mean trouble. And since China is the nearest to Japan, it's the most logical target.

About colonial adventures, that requires Japan to have a navy, obviously. So for that to happen, you'll have to let the Mori clan survive.

Not at all. The majority of daimyo (among them Tokugawa Ieyasu) openly opposed Hideyoshi's plans to invade Korea, so had Nobugana and Hideyoshi been prevented from unifying most of Japan, it's possible that had unification still occurred, another military leader could have decided to maintain cordial diplomatic and trading relations with Korea. In fact, this had generally remained as the status quo for centuries beforehand, despite intermittent lapses stemming from occasional wokou raids during times of disorder.

Japan could have only managed to seize significant territory in China (albeit for the short term) if it had somehow persuaded Korea to form a military alliance, which Hideyoshi had originally planned for. However, this would have virtually been impossible unless China was embroiled in turmoil, allowing Korea to take advantage by seizing Liaodong, as the region had been disputed for over two centuries after the fall of the Yuan. Even then, an alliance would have still have remained unthinkable, as Korea had retained memories of wokou raids for centuries, and did not take the Japanese seriously as a military power even after occasionally sending envoys, which eventually cost them in the Imjin War.

What can happen, however, with such an early POD, is that Korea actually becomes prepared and defends successfully early on. This will force the Japanese to concede and make sure their expansion will purely be commercial, not military.

Not really. The Imjin War was the first and only instance of a major invasion from the south, so defenses along the southern coastline had generally remained lax for centuries. While Korea occasionally sent ambassadors to Japan for centuries, and diplomatic policies were eventually consolidated through the Joseon Tongsinsa soon after the dynasty had been established, they generally consisted of trading relations, and were temporarily suspended from the early to late 16th century soon after a Japanese merchant uprising in Korea forced Joseon to send troops in order to quell the rebellion, indicating that Japan was too fragmented to handle diplomatic issues at the time. Even after Korean envoys were eventually dispatched to Japan in 1590 at Hideyoshi's insistence, they were unable to reach a consensus regarding whether Japan was preparing for an invasion, leading the court to decide that no further measures were necessary, not to mention that retrospectively, two years would have been insufficient to prepare for a war instigated by Japan.

In other words, given that the vast majority of the military and fortifications had remained concentrated in the north for centuries, Joseon would still have been devastated had hostilities broken out, although it would have remained independent. Additionally, a PoD in 1560 would not have significantly altered preparations with an alternate Imjin War.

 

[BBadolato]

June 13 1560

Yoshimoto had called all of his commanders to a meeting, chief among them Ii Naomori, Matsudaira Motoyasu,Asahina Yasutomo, and Okabe Motonobu. [1] “We may have stopped Nobunaga’s gamble, but this could have been a major disaster, that could have destroyed everything” Yoshimoto had stated solemnly. “My Lord”, Motoyasu had decided to speak. “Does this mean our march to the capital is to be called off?" “For now the capital can wait, the Oda on the other hand will not be so lucky,However we must be more concerned in the future. Lord Nobunaga was many things but a fool was not one of them. Had he succeeded most of us may not have even been alive to hold this conversation. We are quite lucky Nobunaga was in dire straits to lead the attack himself. against the other clans we may not be so fortunate.” This time another retainer Naomori spoke up. “My lord, are we to begin our march to Kiyosu Castle?” [2] “Yes I want all of our forces ready", with that Yoshimoto had ordered the march that would see the end of the Oda.

The march to Kiyosu was without incident, many of what remained the Oda clan’s forces didn't even bother to fight, several even surrendered. Okehazama not also saw the death of Nobunaga, but resulted in the deaths of several Oda retainers such as Katsuie Shibata, Nagahide Niwa,Toshiie Maeda, and oddly enough an insignificant sandal bearer named Tokichiro Kinoshita. [3] This left the Oda broken as military force, and at the mercy of the Imagawa.

June 15 1560

When the Imagawa entered Kiyosu Castle, they found what few members of the Oda clan were left that being several of Nobunaga’s brothers he didn't kill, his wife Lady Kicho, his sister Lady Oichi, and his 4 sons, with Nobutada the oldest among them at the age of 3. In act of mercy, Yoshimoto would allow Nobutada to live a head of the Oda clan under the tutelage of Hayashi Hidesada[4]. Nobutada would stay with his brothers and aunt in Sunpu Castle. [5] Kiyosu Castle would be the main base of the Yoshimoto’s military campaign towards the capital of Kyoto, and would be transferred under the control of Nobutada when he came of age. Lady Kicho would be sent back to her relatives in Mino. [6]

[1] These men are several of Yoshimoto's commanders a would have died as in OTL, and Matsudaira Motoyasu would have eventually become Tokugawa Ieyasu OTL as well.

[2] Kiyosu castle was the main castle of the Oda

[3] The men were prominent leaders of the Oda, while Tokichiro Kinoshita would have Hideyoshi Toyotomi.

[4] One of Nobubaga's retainers who advised surrender to the Imagawa.

[5] Sunpu, in present day Shizuoka city was the main residence and power base of the Imagawa clan

[6] Lady Kicho was a daughter of Saito Dosan, a Daimyo of Mino with her brother Yoshitatsu as current head. She never bore Nobunaga any children.

I have plans for both Nobutada and Oichi later, and while Yoshimoto's march to the capital is getting sightly delayed, it's still going to happen. Feel free to give me any feedback.

 

[ALF0N53]

Is a Saito-Imagawa alliance in the cards? And what of the Takeda and Uesugi, not to mention Hojo?

 

[BBadolato]

Is a Saito-Imagawa alliance in the cards? And what of the Takeda and Uesugi, not to mention Hojo?

No, sending Kicho back was more a good way to get rid of her, although having the Saito decide to be spoilers in this TL is an intresting idea. The Takeda and Hojo are both in a triple alliance with each other and the Imagawa. Currently the Hojo are busy in Kanto, while the Takeda have the Uesugi. The Uesugi are currently engaged in struggles with the primarily the Takeda, but also the Hojo.That being said I do have plans to have the Triple Alliance break up spectacularly.

A big problem I'm facing is the Imagawa don't seem to be that fertile or there's history missing. Currently Yoshimoto has one known son Imagawa Ujizane, and he only has one known son in 1570. I possibly wanted something to with Oichi and Ujizane, but i'm worried about the age difference. Ujizane is currently 22 and Oichi is 13, even if some happens between the two 3 years along the nice it still seems kinda nasty or should I just go with that?

 

[Zulfurium]

A big problem I'm facing is the Imagawa don't seem to be that fertile or there's history missing. Currently Yoshimoto has one known son Imagawa Ujizane, and he only has one known son in 1570. I possibly wanted something to with Oichi and Ujizane, but i'm worried about the age difference. Ujizane is currently 22 and Oichi is 13, even if some happens between the two 3 years along the nice it still seems kinda nasty or should I just go with that?

The age difference isn't all that bad when you take the time period into account. Might be an idea if they wait a year or two but otherwise i don't see any reason why you shouldn't do it.

 

[BBadolato]

Based off a previous post I want to give the Saito of Mino some of the spotlight. I hope my dialogue or writing of it isn't awkward, this TL is my first foray into creating characters.

June 17 1560

Inabayama Castle, Mino Province

“Father, Aunt Kicho has arrived” came the first voice in a humble tone “Very well, send her in” the second more harsher voice spoke. Lady Kicho now a recent widow, had entered the main hall of Inabayama, looking particularly angry at man in front of her. This man was her alleged brother Saito Yoshitatsu, Second head of the Saito clan, and Daimyo of Mino. “Ah dear sister, it’s so good to see you again” said Yoshitatsu with no hint to his dislike of Kicho. “I would say likewise brother, but what kind of son kills their own father, I suppose the rumors of your birth are true.” [1] Kicho bitterly retorted. Upon hearing this, Yoshitatsu flew into a rage. “How dare you!, this is coming from the same woman who could not bare her foolish husband a son or a daughter for that matter.” Kicho had furiously glared at Yoshitatsu. “The only reason you're here is because, even old man Yoshimoto had passed you up and sent you home” [2] Yoshitatsu gleefully retorted. “Father please stop!” was pleadingly called out by Yoshitatsu’s son and heir Saito Tatsuoki.

“Humph, fine, leave us “sister” With that, Lady Kicho had left the room to her new quarters. “Damn the Imagawa! on hand they crush the Oda, on the other they send my annoying sister back” [3] a thoroughly annoyed Yoshitatsu stated. “However, this presents an opportunity. I will write to “Lord” Yoshimoto and thank him for his generous display of mercy, maybe even invite him over to talk of alliance.” Yoshitatsu stated thoughtfully. “Father, what would we have to gain by this alliance everyone knows Yoshimoto is marching to the capital” an unsure Tatsuoki said. “Tatsuoki my son, While I never really forgave grandfather for his actions, he was wise in exploiting opportunities.[4] Eventually Yoshimoto’s luck will run out, and then the Saito can make it’s own play for Kyoto.” Yoshitatsu had confidently stated. “But father isn't that dishonorable?” said a nervous Tatsuoki.

“Poor Tatsuoki, you have much to learn about the world we live in”. Yoshitatsu began “Honor and dishonor are merely another set of terms we use to justify right and wrong, at the end of the day it all comes to survival. Why do you think the “great” Takeda Shingen exiled his own father, or why did the Shogun Ashikaga Takauji and his descendants dare raise their forces against a god. [5] What I do, I do for the good of Saito. “Even killing grandfather? replied a saddened Tatsuoki. “My son, I would never betray you unlike what grandfather tried to do me.

[1] Saito Yoshitatsu had a rumor about him, that he wasn't Saito Dosan's son. This lead to him killing his father and brother. Going this I'm making this a real sore spot for him.

[2] Harsh words but true, considering she was married to him for 11 years at this point, and didn't bare him any children. It's a sore spot for Kicho as well

[3] The Oda and Saito were rivals, yet Saito Dosan and Nobunaga Oda were amicable. When Yoshitatsu turned on his father, it's alleged that Dosan willed Mino to Nobunaga. Nobunaga even decided to march to Mino to avenge him, but was beaten back by Yoshitatsu, Tatsuoki wasn't that lucky. Here the Saito are spared from being beaten by the Oda.

[4] Saito Dosan was nicknamed the Viper of Mino, and was every bit as crafty and deceptive as the nickname suggests. Ironically he still ends being betrayed by his son, so the apple isn't far from the tree in this TL

[5] Shingen Takeda overthrew his father Takeda Nobutora, by having him exiled to stay with Nobutora's father in law, Imagawa Yoshimoto. The second example is the Ashikaga's role in the Nanbokucho period or the Northern and Southern court period between rival claimants to the Imperial throne.

 

[tonsofun]

A few concerns I have for my TL is what to do about the rest of the world, and how far should I go. With the rest the world I want to see a surviving Ivan Ivanovitch and more Eastern focused Russia, so subsequently a surviving Poland-Lithuania. Or should I just not really about now, but keep some mental notes to come back to.

In my experience (I also do a Japan tl, which started in Sengoku period), it is best to just concentrate on Japan for now and make mental notes of what you want for the rest of the world. Take it one day at a time to say. I find getting too far can cause consistency problems.

Yet in areas where I may be so sure of the effects I don't want to have a massive butterfly net and have things go as in OTL. As for goals for just Japan, I want an Imagawa Shogunate that is much more different than the OTL Tokugawa, particularly no Sakoku.

Avoiding Sakoku is easy. Tokugawa Iemitsu only enacted it, as he was paranoid about Christianity conquering Japan (it is alleged a drunk Spanish sailor boasted that Spain would conquer Japan with Japanese Christians).
In my tl, Christianity is used as a bogey man to keep Japan unified and to encourage new developments. Then again, this tl could see a Shogunate which deals with Christianity and the Europeans in a different way. Either way, once Europeans reach Japan and start trading weapons, the butterflies are going to start flying. It all depends on how the Imagawa react to it.

Yet at the same time I don't know what would be a decent direction, I don't want the Imjin War or any campaigns against China. Possibly as a spoiler for states in the Pacific, maybe get in on the colonial action in America?

An Imjin war isn't necessary. War could be directed elsewhere, Vietnam, Ayutthaya or the Phillipines. Once Japan is unified and determined to stay open, Asian becomes their playing ground if they do things right.

 

[BBadolato]

In my experience (I also do a Japan tl, which started in Sengoku period), it is best to just concentrate on Japan for now and make mental notes of what you want for the rest of the world. Take it one day at a time to say. I find getting too far can cause consistency problems.

Sounds like a plan, I'll probably make an update on the state of the world, after unification.

In my tl, Christianity is used as a bogey man to keep Japan unified and to encourage new developments. Then again, this tl could see a Shogunate which deals with Christianity and the Europeans in a different way. It all depends on how the Imagawa react to it.

Christianity and well religion in this period is something I'm still thinking of dealing with. Yoshimoto would have been in a monastery had his oldest brother not die, so he won't be as supportive of Christianity as Nobunaga, but probably not as ruthless as him in dealing with Ikko Ikki.
I'd probably like to have a Jesuit make a journey to Owari first to get an impression of Yoshimoto and then go on to Sunpu and an impression of Ujizane.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

We could always use another Sengoku timeline.

 

[BBadolato]

June 27 1560

Sunpu Castle, Suruga Province

Imagawa Ujizane, heir to the Imagawa clan and acting leadership while his father was away, was busy administering the day to day affairs of the clan. [1] In the main hall he was currently with his uncle Imagawa Ujitoyo, and his grandfather Takeda Nobutora. “Nephew, why do you constantly seek to do everything yourself, you’ll exhaust yourself to death” a worried Ujitoyo asked. [2] “I’m getting advice from my uncle, who lost his castle due to his absurd love of poetry” Ujizane duly replied. [3] Upon hearing this Ujitoyo sulked, leaving Nobutora to snicker at his expense. “Uncle, What would have me do, rely on people like Motoyasu or great-uncle Sessai, to actually lead my own army” Ujizane continued. [4]

An annoyed Nobutora had decided to speak, “Grandson, you are rash and impatient. You have no knowledge of the ways of war yet you fancy yourself an aspiring general. Maybe if you did something like talk with your generals, then say play that ridiculous game that is as silly as Ujitoyo’s poetry, you would actually learn something." [5] Ujitoyo sulked even further. “I’m being lectured on war by my “great warrior” of grandfather who was tricked by his own son” Ujizane spat back. Upon hearing this, Nobutora became enraged “You impudent brat! I should teach you a lesson” Roaring almost like his namesake.

“Enough!” It was to the shock of both Ujizane and Nobutora, coming surprisingly from Ujitoyo. “Nephew, you needlessly burden yourself and don’t want any help. You may mock my love of Renga, but in Renga you see the essentials of life, co-operation and partnership. [6] Sogi,Shohaku, and Socho where all great poets alone, yet together created a one hundred verse masterpiece. [7] A Daimyo does not make a clan alone, it is also his retainers, and the people” Upon hearing this Ujizane became visibly upset. "Uncle,Grandfather I deeply apologize for my disgraceful behavior."

In that moment a messenger had arrived. "Lord Ujizane, the Oda Clan hostages have arrived" "Send them in" Standing before Ujizane was the remnants of his fathers old enemies the Oda, among them he say several younger men who he assumed may have been Nobunaga's brothers. A rather young girl who was beautiful for her age who was Nobunaga's sister, and several children with the oldest among them looking dead straight in Ujizane's eyes, holding a wooden stick. Pointing his stick towards Ujizane "You and your father are ugly painted dogs". Upon hearing this, Nobutora walked forward with the rest of the Oda clan in fear of the old man's appearance. [8] "Who are you child?" an amused Nobutora asked. "I am no child! I am Oda Nobutada 5th head of the Oda, and daimyo of Owari!" Nobutada said this all without showing fear. Upon hearing this Nobutora began to laugh, I like you, Lord Nobutada.

With that, Ujizane ordered servants to attend to the Oda family, and get them settled in.

[1] Clan heads at time would often retire and allow their heirs to rule, for the sake of this story Yoshimoto is leaving domestic control to his son Imagawa Ujizane.

[2] Imagawa Ujitoyo was the younger brother of Yoshimoto. Nobutora Takdea was aside from being the father of Takeda Shingen, father in law to Yoshimoto who married one of his daughters, and grandfather to Ujizane

[3] Ujitoyo was a noted lover of Renga or collaborative poetry, his partner happened to be Oda Nobuhide, Nobunaga's father. It cost him his castle in Owari, his fate is ambiguous but I would say he survived.

[4] Yoshimoto usually had others to back up his military talent, first his uncle Taigen Sessai, and then his vassal Matsudaira Motoyasu. Ujizane was noted to be rather paranoid in his OTL rule, hence his annoyance at this, and problems with his uncle and grandfather.

[5] Nobutora is making reference to Ujizane's love of Kemari, which I believe is applied to his father as well.

[6] Renga is Japanese collaborative poetry with verses from one poet to another being able to link and change topics.

[7] A reference to a gathering of 3 of the best Renga poets resulting in 100 verse between the 3 of them.

[8] Nobutora was said to be fearsome, that even as an old man pushing 80 in 1573, that he frightened his grandson Takeda Katsuyori. He also had a short temper was very arbitrary, hence his characterization.

I hope there is nothing with wrong with my pacing or characterization. All of this does serve a purpose, but I hope I'm not dragging things along.