a Valkyrie Rises Over Europe, a Alternate Story of the Cold War

Kaiser K

Tom Colton said:
I like the Turtledove-esque use of analogues here, what with the UAR as Yugoslavia on steroids and now China becoming increasingly Israel-like, although with more due consideration to the surrounding geopolitics. I would imagine that the single worst thing that could happen in the Far East right now is if Chiang gets too big for his boots and "aids" one of the factions in the "Second Russian Civil War" - and it's not one the Americans are financing...:eek:
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I'm not actually really going for Turtledove-esque direct and straight up analogues in this timeline. At least not intentionally (I certainly did enough of those in the other timeline I am well known for on the site). I will admit. it is certainly very much a fact that the UAR of this timeline fills the role that Yugoslavia did in the original Cold War of our time as the predominant and strongest non-aligned nation. (As I mentioned before). And looking back at what I have wrote so far. I can see the Israel vibes coming from the KMT. You must not forget that both the UAR and China (And every other nation for that matter) Has their own agendas; goals and desires that are concurrent to the actual situation within the TL. And not a structure based of our own timeline.

That said. The course that Chiang and the KMT are taking right now. They/he are starting to get pretty big for their collective britches. And considering Beijing's already mentioned hatred of the Communists on both sides of China's relatively large border (understatement o_O). Things could end up getting even messier over in Russia (or even Vietnam for that matter) real quick like.

Tom Colton said:
Well then, Weber lives on, the cat will mew, and the dog will have its day, eh? :p I suppose it was too much of a recent and raw issue for either the Hungarians or the Romanians to give up so soon. I'm tempted to say the Germans will back Romania because oil, but they've already snapped up the Caucasus republics, so that might not be so crucial. If the ACT is savvy, they're going to tap on this internal rift.

If you want a photo of Speer and the good doctor, might I suggest this? It's not actually Weber but Backe, the mastermind of the Hunger Plan, but they look pretty similar.
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Yep, Weber lives on. Bears are Catholics. and the Pope shits in the Woods. The world is in perfect alignment and order. :)p)

But yes. The issue was indeed too raw for either the Hungarians or Romanians to give up on so easily. Essentially dooming any prospects (diplomatically or otherwise) on the Germans behalf of salvaging the situation before it got too out of control.

As for the issue of Oil. While it is indeed very much a (albeit unfortunate) fact that the Germans control the very rich Caucasus oilfields as a result of their annexation of what became the present Reichskommissariat Kaukasus. The oilfields themselves are actually not the most reliable source for the Reich due to the ongoing insurgency being waged by Soviet partisans in the East (Meaning the threat of sabotage and or raids by partisans looms over the fields there). Which means that the oilfields at Ploesti are still overall the most reliable source of crude petroleum for the Reich. That fact in turn also means that the German government has a vested and extensive interest in Ploesti. A interest that also includes ensuring that the fields do not get destroyed or damaged in any way.

Tom Colton said:
One last thing:

You probably mean "All 20 students were dead; all killed by bullets from Hungarian soldiers' rifles" unless that one bullet was so incredible it pierced through 20 bodies, in which case the Romanians are totally screwed if they make war. ;)

Can't wait for the next update. This is turning out wonderfully grim.
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Damn my attempts to be poetic and thought provoking!... This is why I can't have nice things! :cool:

But seriously. There was certainly no magic bullet type TARDIS bullshit going on here. This isn't Weber's Germany after all :)p)
 

sloreck

Kaiser K hasn't said - but we can assume that ALL of the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe & elsewhere were killed (minus a few who escaped) so rather than ~ 6 million Jews you would have more like 8+ million dead (includes those in areas of the USSR where the final solution was not effective OTL but was ITTL). Likewise you can pretty much ensure that all of the Roma of Europe are gone, minus any saved as "zoo specimens", so lets add another million or so (now we are at + 3million over OTL). The big question is the Slavs. The Nazis planned to lose perhaps 50-70% of the Slavs in Poland and occupied areas of the USSR from starvation, being worked to death etc before reducing the remainder to being illiterate and deculturated helots. Off the top of my head this means between 10 and 25 million dead in the 5-8 years following the war ITTL compared to OTL. So my very approximate guess is that ITTL you will have between 15 and 30 million MORE dead from deliberate Nazi actions than OTL.

Anyone else and especially Kaiser K can comment on these numbers.
 

Kaiser K

Historyman 14 said:
I don't what to ask this, but what is the death toll of the Holocaust?
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sloreck said:
Kaiser K hasn't said - but we can assume that ALL of the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe & elsewhere were killed (minus a few who escaped) so rather than ~ 6 million Jews you would have more like 8+ million dead (includes those in areas of the USSR where the final solution was not effective OTL but was ITTL). Likewise you can pretty much ensure that all of the Roma of Europe are gone, minus any saved as "zoo specimens", so lets add another million or so (now we are at + 3million over OTL). The big question is the Slavs. The Nazis planned to lose perhaps 50-70% of the Slavs in Poland and occupied areas of the USSR from starvation, being worked to death etc before reducing the remainder to being illiterate and deculturated helots. Off the top of my head this means between 10 and 25 million dead in the 5-8 years following the war ITTL compared to OTL. So my very approximate guess is that ITTL you will have between 15 and 30 million MORE dead from deliberate Nazi actions than OTL.

Anyone else and especially Kaiser K can comment on these numbers.
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Overall. I would say those numbers that you have Sloreck are not that far off from the actuality of the very sickening truth (maybe a little higher; depending on how aggressive the Nazis are in their pursuit of the eradication of the groups targeted for extermination. As well as how quick the process can be done when you factor in the various other things needing their attention. As well as the ongoing insurgency in the East disrupting things in the various Reichskommisariats). Of course. these numbers are just for the immediate decade or so after the War. and we will still have at least until 1969; and more then likely farther then that to account for in the total number of dead. So I would say it is too difficult at this point to really determine a exact number of dead as a result of TTL's version of the Holocaust. But I can say it is likely is astronomically high.
 
Tom Colton

Tom Colton

Kaiser K said:
I'm not actually really going for Turtledove-esque direct and straight up analogues in this timeline. At least not intentionally (I certainly did enough of those in the other timeline I am well known for on the site). I will admit. it is certainly very much a fact that the UAR of this timeline fills the role that Yugoslavia did in the original Cold War of our time as the predominant and strongest non-aligned nation. (As I mentioned before). And looking back at what I have wrote so far. I can see the Israel vibes coming from the KMT. You must not forget that both the UAR and China (And every other nation for that matter) Has their own agendas; goals and desires that are concurrent to the actual situation within the TL. And not a structure based of our own timeline.
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Don't worry, I'll only call BS if the rump USSR and Mongolia engage China in a six-day war which ends in unilateral victory for the latter, which is then followed up by a war on Lunar New Year which the Americans have to bail China out of. ;)

Kaiser K said:
But seriously. There was certainly no magic bullet type TARDIS bullshit going on here. This isn't Weber's Germany after all :)p)
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Now cut that out! :mad:

:)o)
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

What become of the Polish 1st Armoured Division? Ben L. Salomon? And the international jewish community?

Also, what was FDR thinking during the war before his death?
 
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Kaiser K

I don't have the time to do a full update right now. But here's a little mini update of sorts. ;)

1956 FIFA WORLD CUP
FINAL​

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3-2 SPAIN​

AMERICA WINS WORLD CUP IN STUNNING FASHION!
SKEPTICS PROVEN WRONG!​


5-Bern.jpg

Richard Dawson (left). Blocks a kick from Spanish forward Julio Gonzalez in Extra Time. Preventing a possibly devastating Spanish goal which could've crippled US chances at victory.​


New York Times - July 4, 1956
Arnold Truman - Sports Column
Madrid, Spain​

They said it couldn't be done. They said that it was impossible. It was Spain's World Cup to lose. We were infiltrating their sport, that the truth would be shown soon. The skeptics questioned us constantly; They taunted us; Said our luck would run out eventually. That we would only prove them right and ultimately choke. But in the end; the entirety of our proud country. Our proud fans. And our proud boys on the field have just proved them wrong. In a stunning extra time thriller. the United States of America has upset host country Spain by a score of 3-2 to win the 1956 FIFA World Cup.​

The United States came into the World Cup only one of two teams that qualified for the event that were unranked by FIFA (The other being Pakistan). The number 1 team in the world. Spain. Was by far the favorite to win the cup. With number 3 ranked England a distant second favorite by most analysts and sports columnists covering the games in North America and abroad.​

The United States. After winning it's qualification game against Canada in December of 1955. was paired into Group D. Or the "Group of Death" as it quickly became known as. Matched against #3 ranked England; #7 ranked Uruguay and the #11 ranked Swedish team. It was highly predicted by most involved with or following the games that the United States would lose easily to the stronger and more experienced national teams of it's opponents. However unexpected victories against both England (1-0) and Sweden (2-0) Allowed the United States to finish second in it's group with a total of 6 points. Securing a trip to the Knockout Round (Uruguay won the group with a total of 8 points. Providing the United States it's only loss in the Group Stage)​

The United States found itself pitted in it's knockout round match against the highly respected #8 Swiss team. Many major football and sports analysts admitted that while the "Cinderella" run of the Americans and their surprise advancement into the Knockout Round was impressive. They saw it being the end of the run. Predicting that there was no way they could beat a highly capable and strong Swiss team? right?​

Skeptics were however once again proved completely and utterly wrong. Thanks to the efforts of eventual Tournament MVP Richard Dawson. The United States was able to score a victory over the Swiss by a score of 2-1. Securing it's second trip to the Semi-Finals (The other being the 1930 World Cup in Uruguay. Where the United States lost)​

In the Semi-Finals. The United States found itself pitted against a highly capable Finnish team. With a date in the finals with either Spain or Scotland on the line. Skeptics were once again doubtful about America's chances. But the United States once again proved them wrong. Trouncing the Finnish team in a 3-0 blowout.​

Having shocked everyone in what was a historic Cinderella run to the Finals of the World Cup. It seemed that America's run was on the brink of it's end. Now pitted against the lauded Spanish team. Ranked #1 by FIFA's Official Rankings. Undefeated since a loss against England in a friendly back in 1946. The Spanish team was on fire. Steamrolling easily through all competition thrown at it. Even those who had supported the United States throughout the cup were quickly predicting America's imminent demise against the Spanish team.​

It seemed as if everyone was right during the first half of the game. As Spain held a commanding 2-0 lead heading into the half. However as the American men went back into the locker room. Head Coach Charles Norris looked at his men. And told them that they were doing this. To finally prove how good this team truly was. To finally prove all the skeptics wrong and show how far America's team had come in the last few years. Telling them the simple truth "You were brought here to this match for a reason. Do not let them bully you. You must bully them"​

With those words of wisdom. America came out firing in the Second Half. Scoring a rapid succession of goals against the confused and shocked Spanish team. Who rapidly found themselves tied with a upstart unranked underdog. The end of 90 minutes ended in a 2-2 tie as the efforts of both teams prevented further scoring. Prompting the need for Extra Time.​

Both teams came out firing in extra team with a obvious and burning passion in their bellies. Racing down the green grass of Chamartín Field in Madrid like a round of Spain's famous running of the bulls. For the first twenty nine minutes of extra time both times shut the other out. Excellent defensive work by both Spanish goalie Francisco Estrada and American goalie Frank West. Which was prevalent throughout the entire game as well as the end of it was just a telling showcase of how strong these two teams really were.​

It seemed as if the game was about to be forced to go into Penalty Kicks as the time ticked away to the 1:20:00 mark.. However a quick fast breakaway play lead by Donald Carter gave Richard Dawson the chance he needed against Estrada. A chance he grabbed and took with full force. Launching in the game winning goal with a mere 37 seconds left on the clock.​

This victory. This championship. Is a testament to the hard work and dedication on behalf of Head Coach Charles Norris and the entire United States men's national team. The United States came in as perennial doormats in the eyes of nearly all who opposed. A team that could easily be brushed aside on the road to victory in Madrid. However the dedication. strength and resolve of our boys has finally and forever proved any and all skeptics of United States soccer wrong. This championship today is not just a one off case of luck either. This team. Our team; is not going anywhere anytime soon. Coach Norris and all 23 of our boys will celebrate this victory now. As they should. But by next Monday. The next task at end. 1960 London will be in the forefront of every single person involved with our amazing team's mind. We have another Cup. In four years time in the United Kingdom. The United States will be back and will be ready to defend her title against all challengers.​
 
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Kaiser K

pieman97405 said:
And like that you may have made soccer a thing in TTL's US. Did not see that coming.
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I'm always full of unexpected surprises. :cool:

Admiral Halsey said:
So will both types of Football be popular in the US now?
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That would most certainly be very much correct my good sir. America's surprising and unexpected victory in the '56 World Cup (Especially by what essentially was a rag tag and hastily thrown together squad of underdogs against the big bad evil favorite that was the strong European team.. sound familiar?) Will end up having many long term and extensive effects on the situation of the sport within the country as well as abroad. I can easily see the victory quickly leading to surge of popularity for Association Football within the United States. With Americans quickly grasping and taking the sport by the horns. Developing a much greater awareness and liking for the sport within the United States compared to the course that the sport in the country took OTL. Leading to a very different sports scene (with Soccer/Assc. Football being among the ranks of Baseball and American football in popularity and strength) within the United States itself by the present day I would imagine. the US also might end up joining the ranks of the European teams as giants within the sport by the modern day as well.

It also helps the US that the sport is suffering on the European continent thanks to the fact that the continent is under the jackboot of the Axis. In addition to non participation on apart of the Germans, French, Italians and other European teams in the World Cup and international tournaments and friendlies for some years.
 
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Tanner151

Tanner151

Kaiser K said:
I'm always full of unexpected surprises. :cool:



That would most certainly correct Sir. America's victory in the '56 World Cup (Especially by what essentially was a rag tag and hastily thrown together squad of underdogs against the big bad evil favorite... sound familiar?....) Will have great butterflies and effects on the situation of the sport within the country and abroad. I can easily see the victory quickly leading to surge of popularity for Association Football in the United States. With Americans quickly grasping it and developing a much greater awareness and liking for the sport within the United States compared to the course that the sport in the country took OTL. Leading to a very different sports scene (with Soccer/Assc. Football being among the ranks of Baseball and American football in popularity and strength) within the country by the present day I would imagine. the US might also end up joining the ranks of the European teams as giants within the sport.

It also helps the US that the sport is suffering on the European continent thanks to the fact that the continent is under the jackboot of the Axis. In addition to non participation on apart of the Germans, French, Italians and other European teams in the World Cup and international tournaments and friendlies for some years.
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Why aren't the Germans playing?

Are they protesting that "non-Aryans" are playing in FIFA or what?
 

Admiral Halsey

Banned
Kaiser K said:
(Especially by what essentially was a rag tag and hastily thrown together squad of underdogs against the big bad evil favorite that was the strong European team.. sound familiar?)
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Wait just a minute here.... You gave us the Miracle on Ice 24 years early didn't you?
 

Kaiser K

Admiral Halsey said:
Wait just a minute here.... You gave us the Miracle on Ice 24 years early didn't you?
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It would've only been a Miracle on Ice analogue if it was the Germans the US beat. However the Germans didn't even participate in the '56 World Cup (or the 52 World Cup either. In addition to the corresponding Olympics. Which they didn't participate in either)

So it's more of a American Revolutionary War in Soccer Form type thing (Except with Spaniards instead of Englishmen) :cool:
 

Admiral Halsey

Banned
Kaiser K said:
It would've only been a Miracle on Ice analogue if it was the Germans the US beat. However the Germans didn't even participate in the '56 World Cup (or the 52 World Cup either. In addition to the corresponding Olympics. Which they didn't participate in either)

So it's more of a American Revolutionary War in Soccer Form type thing (Except with Spaniards instead of Englishmen) :cool:
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True enough I suppose.
 
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