Republic of China Election Map

[YLi]

Small Arms of the Republic of China Military, 1925-1960:

Major Arsenals:
-Taiyuan Arsenal (Founded 1912)
-Hanyang Arsenal (Founded 1891)
-Chongqing Arsenal (Founded 1929)
-North China State Industrial Manufacturing Corporation (Norinco) (Founded, 1948)​

Pistols:
-Type 24 Pistol (M1911A1)
-Type 17 Pistol (Mauser C96 in .45 Remington-Thompson)
-Type 38 Pistol (Browning Hi-Power in .45ACP)

Submachine Guns:
-Type 21 Submachine Gun (M1928 Thompson in .45 Remington-Thompson)
-Type 39 Submachine Gun (Proprietary, similar to PPSh-41)

Shotguns:
-Type 27 Shotgun (Winchester 1897 clone)

Rifles:
-Type 24 Rifle (Modified Mauser 1888)
-Type 29 Rifle (Proprietary Design, ZH-29 Based)
-Type 22 Light Machine Gun (Browning Automatic Rifle)
-Type 53 Assault Rifle (Proprietary)
-Type 36 Anti-Tank Rifle (Mauser T-Gewehr in 12.7x99mm)

Machine Guns:
-Type 34 Medium Machine Gun (MG-34)
-Type 40 Medium Machine Gun (Modified, cheaper MG-34)
-Type 24 Heavy Machine Gun (MG08)
-Type 33 Heavy Machine Gun (M2HB)

Grenades:
-Type 24 (Crude fragmentation grenade adaptable as rifle grenade)
-Type 36 (Anti-Tank Grenade)
-Type 57 (Rocket assisted rifle grenade)

Anti-Tank Weapons:
-Type 39 "Fire Lance" Disposable Anti-Tank Rocket (Not quite a Panzerfaust, see upcoming writeup)
-Type 43 Bazooka (M1 Bazooka)
-Type 48 Bazooka (M9 Bazooka)
-Type 45 Recoilless Rifle (M18 Recoilless Rifle)
-Type 55 Fire Lance II Disposable Anti-Tank Rocket
-Type 57 Rocket Propelled Grenade

 

[YLi]

A note on .45 Remington Thompson: In OTL, Remington developed a cartridge specific to the Thompson Submachine Gun which had a casing 3mm longer than the .45 ACP cartridge. The US Army rejected the .45 RT, which caused it to fade into obscurity.

ITTL, Remington attempts to get more out of the .45 ACP brass, which is rather overbuilt for the pressures it gets. The US Army still rejects it, which prompts Remington to sell the production rights for the .45 RT to General Yan Shixian's Taiyuan Arsenal, which manufactures many unauthorized clones of American firearms. .45 RT is dimensionally identical to .45 ACP, but gets about 33-40% higher velocity at the muzzle. This will have an effect on several weapons built by the RoC:

Thompson (Type 21): RoC built Thompson clones ITTL don't have the short range and lack of penetration that US built M1 Thompsons had OTL. The heavy weight of the weapon means that the extra recoil is barely noticeable anyway. However, the recoil of the .45 RT results in an increased rate of fire, so Chinese Thompsons have a heavier bolt and stronger recoil spring to keep the rate of fire at a reasonable level. The Type 21 was effective out to 150 meters, vs. 50 meters for the Thompson, making it a good substitute for a carbine.

Type 24 Pistol: The use of the .45 RT round prompted certain innovations in M1911 design, such as a full length guide rod and solid bolt-in plunger tube housing in the Type 24, which is frequently praised as one of the mostly strongly built M1911 variants.

Type 17 Pistol: The handgrip of the Type 17 was made in a more ergonomic fashion so that shooters who accidentally ran .45 RT through their weapons could handle the recoil better.

 

[abc123]

-Paramount Leader of

Can you explain to us why democratic China has Paramount Leader ( instead of more normal President, as in OTL RoC ) and Central Military Commission ( instead of more normal Ministry of Defence )?

*I know that PRC has MoD, but I meant real MoD.

 

[YLi]

Also, while we're on the topic of Yan Xishan and Taiyuan Arsenal, Shanxi Province ITTL has a very high population of ethnic Japanese. In fact, much of China has a higher than usual Japanese population, especially Manchuria and Korea.

In OTL, Yan Xishan managed to recruit 15,000 Japanese troops to his cause after the end of WW2. ITTL, Japan is invaded and wrecked by the Americans. Many Japanese soldiers decide not to go home, or can't because they're stuck in China and the US isn't really paying much attention to them. Given the IJA's tenacity in combat, most Japanese surrenders occur when they realize they're stranded in China with no way back, not because they have suffered military defeat.

By the time the Japanese government actually gets to their troops stranded in China, many of them have decided to leave Japan, which is a decidedly poor and backwards country as the result of WW2.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Can you explain to us why democratic China has Paramount Leader

'cause they tried a Columbia-Tristar leader, and that didn't work out?

 

[YLi]

Can you explain to us why democratic China has Paramount Leader ( instead of more normal President, as in OTL RoC ) and Central Military Commission ( instead of more normal Ministry of Defence )?

*I know that PRC has MoD, but I meant real MoD.

Some PRC terminology just leaked over.

Also, I sort of like the the sound of "Paramount Leader", it makes it sound more Chinese than "President".

 

[democracy101]

I think I might need to retcon the bit where the US takes Korea. China should be the one taking Korea, especially since it's closer and since the ETO doesn't go as well for the US ITTL as it did OTL.

I think a United China has the wherewithal to take Korea in a rapid and convincing fashion given what they could manage in the face of American fire support in the Korean War. The Japanese would have far fewer assets to interdict the Chinese with and given their comparative immobility, can be mopped up at the leisure of the Chinese.

Korea is definitely a part of China though, but Koreans don't pay national income taxes and get to govern themselves for the most part.

I don't think that this really makes sense. Korea was never directly under foreign control until the Japanese finally annexed it in 1910, and that was due to treaties starting in 1876, which gradually drew Korea under Japan's sphere of influence. Granted, unless conditions are drastically different from OTL before 1876, it would have been very likely for Korea to be annexed by Japan due to the chaotic political atmosphere at the time. However, other than that, it would be extremely unlikely for a united Korea to just sit on their hands if another country attempts to directly incorporate it. Although the situations aren't comparable, the last time that this occurred was during the Imjin War, in which each region raised Resistance Armies and managed to repel the Japanese after seven bloody years, although with heavy losses. In addition, the Koreans were certainly not happy with the proposed partition by the Americans and the Soviets, although it was eventually carried out.

Although the Japanese forces would probably surrender relatively quickly, and Koreans will initially welcome Chinese troops, the situation will be drastically different within 5-10 years or so, as the resistance movements begin to take hold and eventually form coherent military forces. In addition, with a prolonged conflict in Korea, there will probably be issues within the divisions in the Chinese government, along with potential minority issues, which could potentially become more severe if they are not quickly resolved.

Again, I agree that China will swiftly take Korea within a few months at most, but I don't see why you're comparing the situation with Chinese against American forces in the Korean War. If anything, it proved that the Chinese were unable to reunify the peninsula, and if the resistance movement rose up against a Chinese occupation, the ensuing guerrilla war from the mountains would tire the Chinese enough for them to withdraw altogether within 5-10 years after the initial uprising. Although North Korea requested Chinese assistance after they were pushed out of Pyongyang, and aided Chinese forces in terms of the geography, the lack of a partition would mean that most Koreans would firmly resist the Chinese, as there would be no two competing governments attempting to take over the other.

Also, while we're on the topic of Yan Xishan and Taiyuan Arsenal, Shanxi Province ITTL has a very high population of ethnic Japanese. In fact, much of China has a higher than usual Japanese population, especially Manchuria and Korea.

In OTL, Yan Xishan managed to recruit 15,000 Japanese troops to his cause after the end of WW2. ITTL, Japan is invaded and wrecked by the Americans. Many Japanese soldiers decide not to go home, or can't because they're stuck in China and the US isn't really paying much attention to them. Given the IJA's tenacity in combat, most Japanese surrenders occur when they realize they're stranded in China with no way back, not because they have suffered military defeat.

By the time the Japanese government actually gets to their troops stranded in China, many of them have decided to leave Japan, which is a decidedly poor and backwards country as the result of WW2.

The Japanese civilian population in the peninsula was certainly less than a million, in contrast to the indigenous Korean population of roughly 25 million by 1944. The military in the area probably numbered around a million or so, but either way, the Japanese would probably head back to the islands, as conditions would be not much better, if not worse, than in Japan, and the Chinese would certainly attempt to try the generals for war crimes and imprison the others.

On another note, if China somehow manages to retain control over the peninsula, have you thought about what would happen to Yanbian, or another province around the same region created specifically for the Korean minority? I'm assuming it would be incorporated into the Chaoxian Autonomous Region, but I'm wondering if you have other plans.

Regardless, sticking with your scenario, there would be enormous implications, because assuming that China had about a population of 500 million in 1945 and Korea about 25 million, Koreans would make up more than 1/21 of the entire population of China, and could potentially rise to about 1/15 or so by 2010. Although they might have a different political system, the entire Korean population would be slightly less than all of the other ethnic groups put together, so it would be an important issue.

 

[YLi]

I don't think that this really makes sense. Korea was never directly under foreign control until the Japanese finally annexed it in 1910, and that was due to treaties starting in 1876, which gradually drew Korea under Japan's sphere of influence. Granted, unless conditions are drastically different from OTL before 1876, it would have been very likely for Korea to be annexed by Japan due to the chaotic political atmosphere at the time. However, other than that, it would be extremely unlikely for a united Korea to just sit on their hands if another country attempts to directly incorporate it. Although the situations aren't comparable, the last time that this occurred was during the Imjin War, in which each region raised Resistance Armies and managed to repel the Japanese after seven bloody years, although with heavy losses. In addition, the Koreans were certainly not happy with the proposed partition by the Americans and the Soviets, although it was eventually carried out.

Although the Japanese forces would probably surrender relatively quickly, and Koreans will initially welcome Chinese troops, the situation will be drastically different within 5-10 years or so, as the resistance movements begin to take hold and eventually form coherent military forces. In addition, with a prolonged conflict in Korea, there will probably be issues within the divisions in the Chinese government, along with potential minority issues, which could potentially become more severe if they are not quickly resolved.

Again, I agree that China will swiftly take Korea within a few months at most, but I don't see why you're comparing the situation with Chinese against American forces in the Korean War. If anything, it proved that the Chinese were unable to reunify the peninsula, and if the resistance movement rose up against a Chinese occupation, the ensuing guerrilla war from the mountains would tire the Chinese enough for them to withdraw altogether within 5-10 years after the initial uprising. Although North Korea requested Chinese assistance after they were pushed out of Pyongyang, and aided Chinese forces in terms of the geography, the lack of a partition would mean that most Koreans would firmly resist the Chinese, as there would be no two competing governments attempting to take over the other.

The Japanese civilian population in the peninsula was certainly less than a million, in contrast to the indigenous Korean population of roughly 25 million by 1944. The military in the area probably numbered around a million or so, but either way, the Japanese would probably head back to the islands, as conditions would be not much better, if not worse, than in Japan, and the Chinese would certainly attempt to try the generals for war crimes and imprison the others.

On another note, if China somehow manages to retain control over the peninsula, have you thought about what would happen to Yanbian, or another province around the same region created specifically for the Korean minority? I'm assuming it would be incorporated into the Chaoxian Autonomous Region, but I'm wondering if you have other plans.

Regardless, sticking with your scenario, there would be enormous implications, because assuming that China had about a population of 500 million in 1945 and Korea about 25 million, Koreans would make up more than 1/21 of the entire population of China, and could potentially rise to about 1/15 or so by 2010. Although they might have a different political system, the entire Korean population would be slightly less than all of the other ethnic groups put together, so it would be an important issue.

Status of Korea: Korea being part of China is largely a legal fiction designed to attract votes for the Sky Blue Party. Really, a reciprocal agreement where Korea gives China military basing rights in exchange for lowered entry barriers to the Chinese market would be way more productive and sane. However, the Chinese public would never accept such an arrangement as they believe Korea to be a tributary state of China. So at least nominally, Korea is a part of China. I'm not sure whether this would cause rebellion or not, since an independent Korea ITTL would likely have policies very similar to a Korea which is a tributary state of China.

The Korean border is identical to that of the borders pre-1895.

Manchuria/Korea/etc.: I'm thinking to make things more complicated, the Soviets invade Manchuria, Korea and Xinjiang as the Japanese are collapsing and the Chinese have to push them out too. WW2 in Europe ends with an uneasy peace between Kaiserreich Germany and the Western Allies (think status quo pre-WW1), while the Soviets don't really get their hands on any parts of Germany in the East. Soviet propaganda makes the Ostfront to be a Soviet win, but really, it was a draw at best.

In OTL, the Soviets invaded Xinjiang and installed their own puppet there. ITTL, the Chinese would be able to commit more resources repel their first couple of attempts, especially since Sheng Shicai wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any position of power.

The Transbaikal Front and Far Eastern fronts would likely enter Manchuria, Korea and Xinjiang and encounter little resistance at first. However, they would be operating at the limit of their logistical chain and will be fighting against Chinese troops hardened by years of fighting against the Japanese and Soviets and led by competent men such as Peng Dehuai and Zhang Xueliang. Plenty of American lend-lease aid would be going to China as well, especially trucks, tanks and artillery pieces (this will come back to haunt the Americans a decade or so later).

Japanese Stuck in Asia: A considerable number of Japanese soldiers would likely surrender if they believe they were abandoned by their government. Additionally, Japan is invaded by the US and essentially destroyed as a nation. There is very little food and potable water in Japan and the US has taken more material losses in the ETO than it did OTL, which makes them less inclined to help Japan recover. The Japanese soldiers would make good manpower fighting against the Soviets in any event.

 

[YLi]

Type 22B Light Machine Gun. The Type 22 was the illegally manufactured Chinese clone of the Browning BAR in 7.92x57mm Mauser. The B variant was fitted with a pistol grip and quick change barrel.

Type 22s were extremely effective in Chinese service as they could be fired from both supported and unsupported positions. They were generally loaded with a 20 or 30 round magazines, but some variants had a 50 round drum magazine adapted from a 25 round drum magazine for an obscure WW1 rifle. The barrels (or at least the full length versions) were made as to be interchangeable with the barrels for the Chinese license built MG-34 medium machine guns in service at the time.

Field conversions to belt fed variants of the Type 22 eventually resulted in the Type 22/45 Medium Machine Gun, which eventually supplanted the WW1-era MG-08s in Chinese service.

 

[democracy101]

Status of Korea: Korea being part of China is largely a legal fiction designed to attract votes for the Sky Blue Party. Really, a reciprocal agreement where Korea gives China military basing rights in exchange for lowered entry barriers to the Chinese market would be way more productive and sane. However, the Chinese public would never accept such an arrangement as they believe Korea to be a tributary state of China. So at least nominally, Korea is a part of China. I'm not sure whether this would cause rebellion or not, since an independent Korea ITTL would likely have policies very similar to a Korea which is a tributary state of China.

That makes more sense, although calling Korea a "tributary state" would be anachronistic, as Korea would certainly not pay "tribute," although it would probably have close economic relations with China. When are you planning for the Chinese to leave Korea?

The Korean border is identical to that of the borders pre-1895.

I see no problem with that, but the issue is that a prefecture corresponding to what is now Yanbian, and a county corresponding to Changbai in Baishan Province, would have a large majority of Koreans, in addition to others scattered across Manchuria due to Japan's colonial policies. The proportion of Koreans will probably decrease over time if they are retained for decades, and they can be retained as separate from the peninsula as a "buffer region." However, around 1950-1960, there will almost certainly be border conflicts between Korea and China, as the former will attempt to claim the regions as part of Gando, which was a nationalistic/anachronistic viewpoint, or something similar, which would certainly lead to tension between the two countries. The reason that a similar event did not occur IOTL was because of the Korean War and the aftermath in the peninsula, although North Korea and China did have some small-scale border conflicts that were ultimately resolved.

Manchuria/Korea/etc.: I'm thinking to make things more complicated, the Soviets invade Manchuria, Korea and Xinjiang as the Japanese are collapsing and the Chinese have to push them out too. WW2 in Europe ends with an uneasy peace between Kaiserreich Germany and the Western Allies (think status quo pre-WW1), while the Soviets don't really get their hands on any parts of Germany in the East. Soviet propaganda makes the Ostfront to be a Soviet win, but really, it was a draw at best.

In OTL, the Soviets invaded Xinjiang and installed their own puppet there. ITTL, the Chinese would be able to commit more resources repel their first couple of attempts, especially since Sheng Shicai wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any position of power.

The Transbaikal Front and Far Eastern fronts would likely enter Manchuria, Korea and Xinjiang and encounter little resistance at first. However, they would be operating at the limit of their logistical chain and will be fighting against Chinese troops hardened by years of fighting against the Japanese and Soviets and led by competent men such as Peng Dehuai and Zhang Xueliang. Plenty of American lend-lease aid would be going to China as well, especially trucks, tanks and artillery pieces (this will come back to haunt the Americans a decade or so later).

I guess this generally makes sense, but could you explain why the Americans are unable to head into Asia, other than Japan?

Japanese Stuck in Asia: A considerable number of Japanese soldiers would likely surrender if they believe they were abandoned by their government. Additionally, Japan is invaded by the US and essentially destroyed as a nation. There is very little food and potable water in Japan and the US has taken more material losses in the ETO than it did OTL, which makes them less inclined to help Japan recover. The Japanese soldiers would make good manpower fighting against the Soviets in any event.

I'm not sure what the ETO is, although I'm assuming it explains the actions of the US troops during the war.

Anyway, although some Japanese would probably be stranded in Manchuria, and the population could remain depending on what China decides to do with them, the situation will certainly be different in Korea. They will either be forcibly pushed out, or be forced to leave as a result of discriminatory policies targeted towards them. Both the North and the South adopted policies copied from those of the Japanese, but neither were happy with the Japanese remaining, and most of them eventually left within a few years. You have to realize that Korea and Japan are two of the very few countries that considers itself to be of "one race," and the situation will probably not be any different ITTL.

Although the Zainichi Koreans in Japan would probably be a similar analogy, the number of residence dropped to less than 1/3 of the peak, which means that the Japanese non-civilian population in Korea would likely drop to less than 200,000, or less than 1%, making them essentially negligible. A significant amount of military would either be withdrawn from the peninsula in order to defend the islands, or be repatriated by the Soviets, Chinese, or Koreans within a few years. As a result, even in a situation in which a significant amount of the Japanese managed to remain, I really can't see a possibility in which the Japanese remaining in Korea would exceed 500,000 after the war.

 

[YLi]

That makes more sense, although calling Korea a "tributary state" would be anachronistic, as Korea would certainly not pay "tribute," although it would probably have close economic relations with China. When are you planning for the Chinese to leave Korea?

I see no problem with that, but the issue is that a prefecture corresponding to what is now Yanbian, and a county corresponding to Changbai in Baishan Province, would have a large majority of Koreans, in addition to others scattered across Manchuria due to Japan's colonial policies. The proportion of Koreans will probably decrease over time if they are retained for decades, and they can be retained as separate from the peninsula as a "buffer region." However, around 1950-1960, there will almost certainly be border conflicts between Korea and China, as the former will attempt to claim the regions as part of Gando, which was a nationalistic/anachronistic viewpoint, or something similar, which would certainly lead to tension between the two countries. The reason that a similar event did not occur IOTL was because of the Korean War and the aftermath in the peninsula, although North Korea and China did have some small-scale border conflicts that were ultimately resolved.

I guess this generally makes sense, but could you explain why the Americans are unable to head into Asia, other than Japan?

I'm not sure what the ETO is, although I'm assuming it explains the actions of the US troops during the war.

Anyway, although some Japanese would probably be stranded in Manchuria, and the population could remain depending on what China decides to do with them, the situation will certainly be different in Korea. They will either be forcibly pushed out, or be forced to leave as a result of discriminatory policies targeted towards them. Both the North and the South adopted policies copied from those of the Japanese, but neither were happy with the Japanese remaining, and most of them eventually left within a few years. You have to realize that Korea and Japan are two of the very few countries that considers itself to be of "one race," and the situation will probably not be any different ITTL.

Although the Zainichi Koreans in Japan would probably be a similar analogy, the number of residence dropped to less than 1/3 of the peak, which means that the Japanese non-civilian population in Korea would likely drop to less than 200,000, or less than 1%, making them essentially negligible. A significant amount of military would either be withdrawn from the peninsula in order to defend the islands, or be repatriated by the Soviets, Chinese, or Koreans within a few years. As a result, even in a situation in which a significant amount of the Japanese managed to remain, I really can't see a possibility in which the Japanese remaining in Korea would exceed 500,000 after the war.

Tributary State: Maybe the term is a bit anachronistic, but basically, the Chinese get visa-free travel to Korea, as well as multiple military bases in the country. Large scale Chinese military occupation ends in the 70s (there's a dustup with the United States in the 50s and another war with the Soviets in the 60s), but Chinese military units remain on Korean soil.

I seriously doubt the mere presence of military bases would cause problems though.

Chaoxian Autonomous Region in the meantime, is just left to govern itself, although schools there are "encouraged" to teach Mandarin.

The Border: Getting into a shooting war (or anything resembling a substantive conflict) with your neighbor over a single prefecture (or even a few prefectures) is a bit too much, don't you think? There would almost certainly be some kind of diplomatic solution involved.

Europe (European Theater of Operations): WW2 ITTL ends in a draw in Europe, which is why the Americans are simply too exhausted to do anything in Asia after finishing off Japan.

Manchuria and Korea: Meanwhile, the Chinese and Soviets have unfinished business stemming from the invasion of Xinjiang before the war started. A lot of the stranded Japanese soldiers are used as free manpower in the conflict between China and the USSR. China will allow for the Japanese to either stay in China or be repatriated to Japan after the war is over, depending their preferences. The Japanese military has quite a few technical experts that the Chinese would find useful enough to keep around for good.

This policy will reduce the number of insane Japanese holdouts wandering the Chinese countryside as well.

The problem with the Koreans throwing the Japanese in their territory out is that it might create a rather dubious precedent in China, especially if other peripherally attached bits of what China considers to be part of the country starts throwing out people they don't like. This is a tricky question and I'll need to think about it a bit more.

Japan: Japan in 2012 ITTL is a backwards agrarian state with nearly no secondary or tertiary economic sector. It's clean, stable and attracts tourists, but never becomes the industrial powerhouse it did OTL.

 

[YLi]

The Type 22 Light Machine Gun:

"Our most treasured and beloved infantry weapon."-Field Marshal Peng Dehuai

"They were so effective against the Japanese and Soviets that we couldn't get enough of them. It was the most requested item among the infantry."-General Sun Lianzhong

"Runs like clockwork, kills more Russians than alcoholism."-Field Marshal Ma Hongkui

The Type 22, an unlicensed version of the Browning Automatic Rifle, was first built by General Yan Xishan at his armaments plant in Taiyuan, Shanxi Province in 1922.

Originally, the Type 22s made were bone stock versions of the M1918 BAR, sans the rate reducer, which was replaced with a mechanically simpler gas regulator (a feature which also improved the weapon's reliability). Additionally, the gun's body was stamped in two halves bolted together via a couple of takedown pins, which made the weapon lighter and simplified construction. The weapon was chambered in 7.92x57mm in order to retain commonality with the Hanyang Model 1888 bolt action rifle prevalent in China at the time.

The reduction in weight made the gun highly popular with cavalrymen, especially those serving in Xinjiang. However, the light weight made the weapon difficult to control and the weapon was well liked amongst the infantry.

Still, the weapon was highly popular. Unlike guns such as the Japanese Type 11 and Czech Zb26, the Type 22 could be fired from the shoulder, which made it an excellent weapon for trench clearing and anti-ambush work. Also, its lightweight nature made Type 22 gunners able to move rapidly to respond to threats, a highly useful quality when faced with Japanese infiltration attacks.

However, several shortcomings of the Type 22 were identified in the Northern Expedition and during Zhang Xueliang's brief, inconclusive fight against the Soviet Union in 1930.

The first problem was that the thin barrel overheated easily during sustained fire and there was no provision to change out hot barrels quickly. However, FN was willing to sell the production rights to the FN Model D BAR to the Chinese at no charge. The Model D BAR's changes, which included a pistol grip and a finned, quick change barrel, were incorporated into the Type 22. Also, a chrome lined bore and gas system was added to the Type 22 during this time. The new variant, the Type 22B, was introduced in 1931, just in time for the Japanese invasion of Manchuria.

The gun was in great demand, as thanks to the organic firepower it offered Chinese rifle squads, Japanese infantry could only advance with great difficulty. Despite the Japanese superiority in artillery, armored vehicles and air support, it still took them until November of 1933 to conquer Manchuria, thanks to well trained, dug-in Chinese infantry armed with the Type 22 and Type 29 semi-automatic rifle.

In Xinjiang, the Soviet invasion of 1934, ostensibly to support the Uighurs and to overthrow Yang Zengxin the aging and "corrupt" (1) governor of the province, ran into immediate problems as Hui warlords Ma Bufang and Ma Hongkui's moved their 17th Army Group into the area. Immediately, Russian troops were thrown into chaos by the fanaticism of the Hui troops and the high level of firepower of the Type 22, making their advance into Xinjiang very painful.

The Soviets left after a year or so of futilely attempting to control Xinjiang and heavy losses on their part.

Upon the outbreak of war in Europe in 1939, the Soviets did not return for the next 5-6 years while the Chinese fought the Japanese. Increasing numbers of unofficially modified belt-fed versions of the Type 22 begin to show up on battlefields during that conflict and in 1945, on the eve of the Chinese offensive to evict the Soviets from Manchuria and Korea, the belt-fed Type 22/45 (or Type 22C) was adopted as a replacement for the MG-08 water cooled medium machine gun.

The Type 22C, which has seen service in every Chinese conflict since the Vietnam War (which takes place ITTL between China and the US), will get its own article later on.

 

[democracy101]

Tributary State: Maybe the term is a bit anachronistic, but basically, the Chinese get visa-free travel to Korea, as well as multiple military bases in the country. Large scale Chinese military occupation ends in the 70s (there's a dustup with the United States in the 50s and another war with the Soviets in the 60s), but Chinese military units remain on Korean soil.

I seriously doubt the mere presence of military bases would cause problems though.

Chaoxian Autonomous Prefecture in the meantime, is just left to govern itself, although schools there are "encouraged" to teach Mandarin.

Well, if the vast majority of the Chinese troops remain within military bases, and Korea is autonomous by 1950, then becomes politically independent under Chinese influence by 1955 or so, I guess it wouldn't be much of an issue, although there might be a few minor revolts here and there. However, if Korea's government is not politically independent by 1950-5, then there will almost certainly be a significant revolt and extended guerrilla operations, possibly in conjunction with American and/or Soviet aid.

EDIT: It should probably be the Chaoxian Autonomous Region, not Prefecture. My apologies.

Also, you probably don't need to think this far, but have you decided whether Korean writing will use Chinese characters more frequently (mixed script)? Regardless of whether China decides to stick with traditional, or implement simplified, Korea itself will still retain traditional.

The Border: Getting into a shooting war (or anything resembling a substantive conflict) with your neighbor over a single prefecture (or even a few prefectures) is a bit too much, don't you think? There would almost certainly be some kind of diplomatic solution involved.

I can see one or both scenarios occurring, although the fact is that a shooting war did briefly occur between North Korea and China over a less important matter, even though the peninsula remained divided. Regardless, you would still have to work out the issue of the significant amount of Koreans in China when Korea is politically independent.

Europe (European Theater of Operations): WW2 ITTL ends in a draw in Europe, which is why the Americans are simply too exhausted to do anything in Asia after finishing off Japan.

Okay, that makes sense, although I'm assuming that America will still conduct island-hopping operations.

Manchuria and Korea: Meanwhile, the Chinese and Soviets have unfinished business stemming from the invasion of Xinjiang before the war started. A lot of the stranded Japanese soldiers are used as free manpower in the conflict between China and the USSR. China will allow for the Japanese to either stay in China or be repatriated to Japan after the war is over, depending their preferences. The Japanese military has quite a few technical experts that the Chinese would find useful enough to keep around for good.

This policy will reduce the number of insane Japanese holdouts wandering the Chinese countryside as well.

The problem with the Koreans throwing the Japanese in their territory out is that it might create a rather dubious precedent in China, especially if other peripherally attached bits of what China considers to be part of the country starts throwing out people they don't like. This is a tricky question and I'll need to think about it a bit more.

Japan: Japan in 2012 ITTL is a backwards agrarian state with nearly no secondary or tertiary economic sector. It's clean, stable and attracts tourists, but never becomes the industrial powerhouse it did OTL.

Well, yes, I can see how China would somehow retain some Japanese soldiers, although with the drawback of investing more resources into a "foreign" army. However, as I stated earlier, Korea would almost certainly push most of the Japanese out based on what occurred IOTL, so that would be a contradiction.

Given the circumstances, I'm also assuming that Korea will have a significantly larger GDP but a lower GDP per capita than South Korea, as the Han River will boost trade, although there will be a larger population, with low densities in pockets of the northern regions.

 

[YLi]

Regardless, you would still have to work out the issue of the significant amount of Koreans in China when Korea is politically independent.

How's this even a problem? There are many ethnic Koreans in China who are citizens of China.

 

[democracy101]

How's this even a problem? There are many ethnic Koreans in China who are citizens of China.

I know that, which is exactly why I mentioned Yanbian, but you specifically said that ITTL, Chinese consider Korea as part of China, so it would be technically redundant to have a Chaoxian Autonomous Region and other ethnically Korean autonomous prefectures/counties right across the border. Also, as I stated earlier, a divided Korea would be unable to bring up the issue due to other various pressing concerns, although a united one would either attempt to negotiate or conduct border raids if Korea was under Chinese influence and there were ethnic Korean populations under direct political control.

Additionally, will Korea be referred to as Hanguk (한국/韓國) or Joseon (조선/朝鮮)? If it is the former, then Korea should probably be named the Hanguo Autonomous Region.

 

[YLi]

I know that, which is exactly why I mentioned Yanbian, but you specifically said that ITTL, Chinese consider Korea as part of China, so it would be technically redundant to have a Chaoxian Autonomous Region and other ethnically Korean autonomous prefectures/counties right across the border. Also, as I stated earlier, a divided Korea would be unable to bring up the issue due to other various pressing concerns, although a united one would either attempt to negotiate or conduct border raids if Korea was under Chinese influence and there were ethnic Korean populations under direct political control.

Additionally, will Korea be referred to as Hanguk (한국/韓國) or Joseon (조선/朝鮮)? If it is the former, then Korea should probably be named the Hanguo Autonomous Region.

Names: It's Chaoxian/Joseon.

Border Raids: Such a move would be an unbelievably stupid mistake on part of the Koreans. The Koreans get off (very) lightly compared to the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians, who suffer from outright invasion with none of the provisions for autonomy laid for the Koreans, Tibetans and possibly the Mongols.

Pride still has to be factored in, but unless the Korean leadership is made up entirely of individuals who are intellectually impaired, they won't push the issue of Yanbian too hard.

Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture: Yanbian is part of Jilin. Whatever act of the Legislative Yuan creates Korea will not give it to Chaoxian Korean Autonomous Region.

Also, there are many redundancies in how China sets up its provinces. Take a look at Yunnan or Sichuan for example. There are a ton of Tibetan Autonomous Prefectures set up in those two provinces despite there being a Tibetan Autonomous Region. While Koreans are a "one race nation" as you put it, the borders of CKAR won't necessarily include all Koreans in Greater China. Ethnic Koreans in other parts of China are certainly welcome to move to CKAR if they so choose.

Basically, there will be ethnic Koreans under direct Chinese control and the Chinese government's stance would be that anyone objecting can go fuck themselves.

 

[LeX]

What I'm wondering is how whatever force liberates Korea from Japan will justify not making it independent. The only solution would be to conquer it Tibet-style, which would lead to the same problems - resentment of the Chinese occupation and foreign complaint (free Korea?), except that there are far more Koreans than Tibetans to deal with. I guess it could work provided the Chinese act better towards the locals than the Japanese did, but there would still be tensions for a long time as Koreans keep asking "why can't we be our own country?" You would really have to cultivate the idea that "Chinese" is as overarching a term as "European" or "Latin American", so that Koreans could be content to be both simultaneously.

About the ETO - If the USSR fought the Germans only to a standstill, they must've been exhausted. How could they get the will to fight a full-on war against China?

 

[democracy101]

Border Raids: Such a move would be an unbelievably stupid mistake on part of the Koreans. The Koreans get off (very) lightly compared to the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians, who suffer from outright invasion with none of the provisions for autonomy laid for the Koreans, Tibetans and possibly the Mongols.

When are the other states invaded? Also, I was under the assumption that if a border conflict did erupt, which would probably occur after 1960 or so, the situation would grind to a stalemate as Korea would be unable to expand north, but the Chinese would be bogged down due to guerrilla warfare from the mountains if it attempts to head south.

As a sidenote, you are talking about a country that resisted the Sui/Tang for 70 years and the Mongols for 40 years, so it would be extremely unlikely for the Koreans to sit on their hands and surrender if the Chinese invaded with the intent of directly incorporating it.

Also, there are many redundancies in how China sets up its provinces. Take a look at Yunnan or Sichuan for example. There are a ton of Tibetan Autonomous Prefectures set up in those two provinces despite there being a Tibetan Autonomous Region. While Koreans are a "one race nation" as you put it, the borders of CKAR won't necessarily include all Koreans in Greater China. Ethnic Koreans in other parts of China are certainly welcome to move to CKAR if they so choose.

Basically, there will be ethnic Koreans under direct Chinese control and the Chinese government's stance would be that anyone objecting can go fuck themselves.

I thought of Tibetans as soon as I made my last post, so I guess that method might work. However, you've made the situation ambiguous enough so that I can argue multiple scenarios at the same time. If the Koreans in China had a choice, a vast majority of them would probably head back to the peninsula, as most of the immigration was due to Japan colonizing Manchuria with Korean immigrants, so most of it was not voluntary. In other words, it actually might be more likely for enough Koreans to head back to the peninsula to the point where Koreans are disregarded as a significant minority in Manchuria.

 

[YLi]

What I'm wondering is how whatever force liberates Korea from Japan will justify not making it independent. The only solution would be to conquer it Tibet-style, which would lead to the same problems - resentment of the Chinese occupation and foreign complaint (free Korea?), except that there are far more Koreans than Tibetans to deal with. I guess it could work provided the Chinese act better towards the locals than the Japanese did, but there would still be tensions for a long time as Koreans keep asking "why can't we be our own country?" You would really have to cultivate the idea that "Chinese" is as overarching a term as "European" or "Latin American", so that Koreans could be content to be both simultaneously.

About the ETO - If the USSR fought the Germans only to a standstill, they must've been exhausted. How could they get the will to fight a full-on war against China?

I might just have a continuing, low level "insurgency" in Korea which consists mostly of people setting themselves on fire in protest. By this point, China mostly has a hands off policy regarding the place, combined with some solid police work to prevent idiots from bombing Chinese-owned businesses there.

As for Russia, they grab Xinjiang (A Japanese backed Uighur warlord takes over for a while) and Manchuria from an already collapsing Japanese Empire. Their experience battling the Kaiserreich's advanced military makes them expect minimal casualties when overrunning Xinjiang and Manchuria. However, they did not expect the Chinese to declare war and attack them instead of attempting to negotiate for the two provinces.

When are the other states invaded? Also, I was under the assumption that if a border conflict did erupt, which would probably occur after 1960 or so, the situation would grind to a stalemate as Korea would be unable to expand north, but the Chinese would be bogged down due to guerrilla warfare from the mountains if it attempts to head south.

As a sidenote, you are talking about a country that resisted the Sui/Tang for 70 years and the Mongols for 40 years, so it would be extremely unlikely for the Koreans to sit on their hands and surrender if the Chinese invaded with the intent of directly incorporating it.

I thought of Tibetans as soon as I made my last post, so I guess that method might work. However, you've made the situation ambiguous enough so that I can argue multiple scenarios at the same time. If the Koreans in China had a choice, a vast majority of them would probably head back to the peninsula, as most of the immigration was due to Japan colonizing Manchuria with Korean immigrants, so most of it was not voluntary. In other words, it actually might be more likely for enough Koreans to head back to the peninsula to the point where Koreans are disregarded as a significant minority in Manchuria.

Former French Indochina is attacked by the Chinese in 1955 ostensibly to liberate them. The real reason is more or less so the United States cannot place military bases there to contain China though. China more or less explicitly sets up compliant puppet regimes down south. Koreans are allowed to hold elections which are 90% free and fair.

Also, China never invaded with the intent to directly govern Korea. They wanted to restore a modernized version status quo before 1895 for the most part, mainly to give China breathing space.

 

[abc123]

, kills more Russians than alcoholism."-Field Marshal Ma Hongkui

LOL