Axis Pact- WI Empire of Japan replaced by KMT China?

thaddeus

Donor
I mean during war-time. Submarines make poor transports for material (too small) and the others are likely to be shot down/sunk.

One thing to remember is that Chiang wasn't looking to play second fiddle to Germany, nor be it's "little buddy" in the East and act as Germany's factory. In the event of heavier German investment, a pragmatic thing for China to do would be to stay neutral and try and get supplies through other neutrals like Spain. Even that has inherent problems with the Japanese right on China's doorstep and allied blockades. It also seems unlikely that Germany would put forward such investments for production simply because China as an ally is so far away. Japan was too, but they weren't relying on Japan for industrial support, as is being put forward, rather as a means to distract the likes of the USA and Britain (and in an ideal world the USSR but Japan had little interest in attacking Russia) in other theatres. I can also imagine that Chiang's wartime itnerests would be limited to getting Japan out of China and not attacking the USSR. The last thing China wants is to be at war with two of the regions most industrialized powers.

"little buddy?" LOL

the scenario is that some sort of cold peace would have to be established similar to that between USSR and Japan in the OTL but also between KMT China/USSR and KMT China/Japan.

maybe more of diplomat is required Chiang is replaced by Wang Jiang wei? under this scenario China could remain neutral but closely aligned with Germany.

then a WWII version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labour_Corps with both civilian and troops. the benefit to Germany would be obvious, the benefit to China would be to train and employ a large number or troops, latter day Prussians.
 
"little buddy?" LOL

the scenario is that some sort of cold peace would have to be established similar to that between USSR and Japan in the OTL but also between KMT China/USSR and KMT China/Japan.

maybe more of diplomat is required Chiang is replaced by Wang Jiang wei? under this scenario China could remain neutral but closely aligned with Germany.
That would take one hell of a diplomat, because the Japanese thought they were winning (they did keep expanding over new territory and winning battles), and the Chinese are too furious and distrustful of Militarist Japan. The peace you were talking about between the Soviets and Militarist Japan happened after a couple of border battles. Any peace in the late 30s between Militartist Japan and KMT China would be taking place after the invasion of occupation and Manchuria, followed by 6 years of off-and-on encroachment further south into China proper and further west into inner Mongolia, followed by an all-out total war. The total war, by the way, only occured after the breaking of the Tanngu Truce and the He-Umezu Agreement (the government in Tokyo was mostly sincere in these efforts, but they could not control their troops). Therefore, Chinese leaders have no reason to think any agreement made with Japanese leaders will actually be kept--even if Tokyo wants to. Much harder to agree to a peace with a history like that.
then a WWII version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Labour_Corps with both civilian and troops. the benefit to Germany would be obvious, the benefit to China would be to train and employ a large number or troops, latter day Prussians.
I don't understand how the Chinese people sent to Europe would serve as both laborers and find time to be trained in modern tactics. Is this two seperate groups? Are they being forced to work as laborers for a set period in order to pay for their trip, and only then allowed to be trained? Anyway, the German-trained divisions were a great boon to China in OTL, but it seems like it would be easier to move the German trainers to China than to move the Chinese soldiers to be trained to Germany. The latter is a much larger group, after all.

Finally, we have the same problem we have had this entire thread: how do they get to Germany? It's fine if we are talking about the mid-1930s, they can just go by ship. But any time after the outbreak of hostilities in Europe, this becomes impossible--the UK is never going to allow potential German troops, or even war laborers, to come to Germany. Even if they get to Germany in the middle 30s, there would seem to be a danger that they would become trapped there during the outbreak of the war. It would be interesting to see a TL where a brigade or two of Chinese "volunteers", trapped in Germany, ends up being used during Barbarossa or soemthing. :p

Also I hestitate to bring this up, but the idea of importing Chinese laborers for the Entente during the First World War had its origins in the use of Chinese laborers as "coolies" in the later part of the 19th century. There was a system post-slavery where many countries and colonies imported Chinese laborers at extrememly cheap rates, and they were often treated very badly indeed. WW1 laborers were treated better, and I am sure Chinese laborers in Germany would be too. But still, it will remind many people of the old system of importing Cheap "disposable" Chinese labor, and as such it will have to be handled very carefully to avoid inflamming Chinese sentiment.

The other option, as you have pointed out, is the TSRR. This might be possible during the middle 30s if you somehow improve Nazi German--Soviet Union ties dramatically. However, even then you have the issue that the Far Eastern termini for the TSRR are all under Japanese control, and they are unlikely to be in favor of this scheme.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
with a shredded scenario for replacing Japan in the Axis with KMT China, looking for another candidate!

in the meantime, what if Germany had just avoided the Pacific conflict, sell arms to KMT China, Thailand, etc but otherwise remain neutral?

would Japan have proceeded as OTL without being in an alliance?
 
Would German support for the Chinese nationalists make the United States any less anti-Nazi? If the Germans send an expeditionary force to China before the war breaks out could try and tie down disproportional Allied forces defending places like Burma or India. Chiang Kai-shek might be amenable to German aid. An Allied response coordinated with Japan might drive a diplomatic wedge between them and the United States. Antagonizing the Japanese would do little, because the Allies already had overwhelming naval superiority over Germany and Japan wasn't an active participant in the war until 1941, so they were useless as an ally in 1939. Anything to keep the United States neutral is certainly a great benefit to Hitler.
 
Would German support for the Chinese nationalists make the United States any less anti-Nazi? If the Germans send an expeditionary force to China before the war breaks out could try and tie down disproportional Allied forces defending places like Burma or India. Chiang Kai-shek might be amenable to German aid. An Allied response coordinated with Japan might drive a diplomatic wedge between them and the United States. Antagonizing the Japanese would do little, because the Allies already had overwhelming naval superiority over Germany and Japan wasn't an active participant in the war until 1941, so they were useless as an ally in 1939. Anything to keep the United States neutral is certainly a great benefit to Hitler.
It might confuse matters, but the US (and critically FDR and any plausible alternative) was becoming increasingly anti-Nazi for independent reasons. No Pearl Harbor might delay the actual DOW, but the US will still be shipping Lend-Lease (which was dangerous enough as is). And eventually, FDR will get his excuse for war, and the US will join as a full member.

Not to mention, the only reason that Hitler would actively support China over Japan would be that China had become much stronger (somehow), so that might complicate things for the China Lobby (especially if Chiang started trying to throw his weight around).

But the biggest issue with a German expeditionary force being deployed to China prewar to attack the Allies is that there is literally nothing in it for Chiang. He, like Franco, would be happy to accept help from Germany or anyone else (including the USSR), but to actually join Germany's war would be a bridge too far. Just allowing Germany to use his territory for a major offensive (even if the Germans could somehow support it with the existing infrastructure) would be an effective act of war, which Chiang would never support. Even if he somehow defeats the Japanese and retake Manchuria (which he never came close to doing OTL), he then has to deal with the Communists, and probably deal with various warlords in the formerly Japanese occupied-territory. He has far too much to take care of to pick a pointless fight with the Allies. Despite what certain threads would have you believe, other nations are independent actors with their own needs and motives, which generally do not include a burning desire to commit suicide for the greater glory of the Third Reich.

Finally, the point remains that Japan is always going to be a more valuable ally for Hitler. The IJN was very good, and tied up significant US assets (and even if the US miraculously stays neutral, it would have tied up significant UK assets, which is also good for Germany), whereas the Chinese will never manage to build a significant navy in time for WW2. The IJA was terrible, but so was any conceivable Chinese army, and both are facing lousy logistics for any invasion of British India (hint: supplying a major invasion through the Himalayas is not going to go well, and Indochina is likely to look not too dissimilar from the OTL Indochina campaign, so no major gains there).

In short, swapping China for Japan makes little sense for both sides.
 
German-Chinese cooperation made sense as long as there was a
chance of Chinese-Japanese rapprochement, which as I indicate at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/msg/6e31de56d17be4f0
seemed a real possibility in the mid-1930's.

Once China and Japan were at war, Hitler had to choose between the
two--although Germany did for a time try to broker a peace agreement
between the two Far Eastern nations--and I do not think that was a close
choice. Japan was far more powerful and could exert pressure against the
Soviet Union and the United States (as well as the western European
colonial powers in Asia) in a way China never could. Also, one
has to remember that one reason for the German-Chinese alliance had been
Germany's economic interests in China; and once Japan had occupied most of
China's largest cities, China could do no longer do much for Germany
economically. Finally, as I note at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/msg/23bdaa655b897aec
the rise of Ribbentrop worked against a continuation of German-Chinese
friendship:

"For the first few years of the Third Reich, Hitler showed little interest
in Far Eastern affairs, and the Foreign Ministry, headed by Neurath, tried
to maintain a 'balanced' policy toward China and Japan. (For a short
period in the mid-1930s the chief military adviser to Chiang Kai-shek was
none other than General Hans von Seeckt, one of the Reichswehr's leading
officers during the 1920's.) Ribbentrop was the man who made the most
strenuous efforts (even before he became Foreign Minister) to redirect the
focus of German Far Eastern policy away from China and toward Japan, with
whom he sought a real military alliance, not just the largely
propagandistic Anti-Comintern Pact."
 

SunDeep

Banned
How does China get its troops to India? They can't just march through Tibet, they'll never be able to keep themselves supplied. Clearly they can't get there by sea, neither Germany nor China has the sea-lift even if the British weren't trying to stop them. Do they march through Burma? China at this time can't easily keep themselves supplied outside of China itself, there is no way they could get any farther through Burma into India than Japan ever did. China in this time period cannot get troops into India, and they can't keep them supplied if they do.

You haven't heard of the Burma Road then? IOTL, in the dire early stages of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, it only took a year to construct, with the project commencing in 1937 and completed by 1938; and the construction of the first and by far the most difficult section of the Ledo Road extension into India, across the Patkai range, took roughly the same time. It'd certainly take the KMT Chinese longer to construct these supply routes in wartime conditions, but it'd be just a matter of time- and if the Burma Road is still constructed ITTL, the initial supply route is already in place from the outset of hostilities in the South Asian Theatre of WW2.

Secondly, while some Nazis might have been in favor of putting enough pressure on Britain to get them out of the war, but Hitler himself essentially wanted to knock the UK out in a way that would keep the British friendly. For him, the number one enemy would always be the Soviets, not the Anglo-French.

Another reason why a military alliance with a more successful KMT China would be considered a viable alternative to an alliance with the Japanese. For him the number one enemy would always be the Soviet Union, not the British, French or U.S of Americans; and when taking on the Soviets, what use will Japan's shiny modern navy be to the Nazis in the conflict? An ally with a vast reserves of manpower which can be thrown into the conflict, outnumbering even the hordes of troops which Soviet Russia can mobilise with ease, would seem to be far more useful to Nazi Germany.

The Chinese have a LOT of troops and they fought very bravely. But China at this time period has no ability to project power outside of their own borders, full stop. They might be able to take French Indo-China (like the Japanese did in OTL) as there were some rail lines connecting to the Chinese border, but they have no more ability to threaten India than Militarist Japan did, and they can't ever take Dutch Indonesia or even Burma the way Militarist Japan did, and therefore they will always be second choice for a Nazi German ally.

IOTL, there were established transport links to the Chinese border running from Burma, and there were several links within the British Raj between Burma and the rest of India through Assam. And while the Japanese Army had to establish a foothold in French Indo-China, pushing through Siam, Malaysia and the entire length of Burma to get into India, the Chinese only have to march west across North Burma. Also worth mentioning is that even though the KMT Chinese army, while far more capable ITTL, will still be less well equipped than Japan's IOTL, they still have the crucial advantage of manpower, allowing them to occupy and pacify far larger swathes of territory while still maintaining their advances.

IOTL, the Japanese had the momentum and the firepower to continue their advance far further into India after the Allied retreated from Burma in disarray in May 1942, but refrained from renewing their offensives after the monsoon. The reason for this seems obvious enough- the size of the Japanese force deployed in the Burma campaign just wasn't large enough to simultaneously continue the advance into India and occupy their newly conquered territories across South-East Asia. ITTL, the Chinese would have more than enough troops at their disposal for this to be a non-issue, at least until they manage to push as far west as Bengal.
 
Upgrade Chinese or Japanese Armor

The key to either a Chinese or Japanese ally would be to upgrade their armor to be able to more effectively oppose Soviet armor and artillery. My understanding is that the Japanese army opposed the Soviets once or twice during the Japanese invasion of China (The China Incident). The result is that the Soviets are more effective use of armor and artillery which shocked the Japanese.

The Japanese Army would need to upgrade their armor starting around '36 or so to be able to effectively engage Soviet forces.
 
End the China Incident

One other crazy idea I had (I only have crazy ideas) is the Germans being able to negotiate some form of truce between the Chinese and Japanese. Such a truce would enable the Germans to arm both parties and to end the "China incident" Ending the China incident would enable Japan to obtain more raw materials from the US and pacific nations as the major contentious issue between Japan and the US would have subsided.
 
What you need is a Japan who is not interested in China or left-leaning, but either is difficult.

I'd almost say ASB, or butterflies from about 1300 A.D.

Japan considered Korea's only purpose being a staging ground for the invasion of Japan. And of course, once a Japanese invasion of Korea is under-way the Chinese are looking at Korea's only purpose being an invasion staging ground by Japan.

Difficult to see how this would be dealt with.
 
Yeah, not really going to happen.

One, the Japanese had more ships than the Chinese do (and would have many more today, had it not been subjected to the "no-war" clause of its constitutions). The Nazis would have needed those to tie up both the RN and US Navy in the Pacific.

Two, the Chinese were more divided, with their warlords and such.

All of this just makes militarist Japan a better place for the Nazis to be buddies with.

It is quite plausible, all you need is to have Japan not be an option for the Germans and the KMT would remain German friendly (I don't know how that would effect US support).

Probably you would need Britain to take a more adversarial stance to the United States and so maintain the Anglo-Japanese alliance.
 
You haven't heard of the Burma Road then? IOTL, in the dire early stages of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, it only took a year to construct, with the project commencing in 1937 and completed by 1938; and the construction of the first and by far the most difficult section of the Ledo Road extension into India, across the Patkai range, took roughly the same time. It'd certainly take the KMT Chinese longer to construct these supply routes in wartime conditions, but it'd be just a matter of time- and if the Burma Road is still constructed ITTL, the initial supply route is already in place from the outset of hostilities in the South Asian Theatre of WW2.
I'm familiar with it, yes. Thanks for the sarcasm. All right, then, let's imagine that China builds the Burma Road. I will assume that the Second Sino-Japanese War never happened ITTL, because planning to invade Burma either during or right after a devastating war is insane. So, why is the UK allowing a presumably unfriendly, German-aligned China to build a road to one of their colonies? Even if they allow it, I imagine they will prepare to defend themselves against troops that do come down it. The British had a very specific reason to build the OTL road. It is not like you can build a new road between Burma and Kunming in peacetime at extraordinary expense and not raise eyebrows. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the Brits are distracted, and they buy the idea that the road is just to promote trade between Burma and Kunming. A Chinese army starts walking down the road. How do the Chinese keep the British from closing the road? The OTL Burma Road worked specifically because it was so far from the fighting. How will the Chinese keep it open when it is on the front lines, when the British have air support and they just don't? Finally, the reason the Burma Road was useful in OTL was because it served as a transport link for trucks carrying tons of supplies. But China doesn't have trucks. They can't build them themselves, certainly. I suppose they could import some, and the oil, and the spare parts, but it won't be easy to keep more a relative handful going. As you keep saying, the advantage of China is their large population. If they send (march) in these huge armies into Burma, how will they keep such large numbers supplied with the British interdicting their sole supply route, which they don't have the trucks to really make useful anyway?

Another reason why a military alliance with a more successful KMT China would be considered a viable alternative to an alliance with the Japanese. For him the number one enemy would always be the Soviet Union, not the British, French or U.S of Americans; and when taking on the Soviets, what use will Japan's shiny modern navy be to the Nazis in the conflict? An ally with a vast reserves of manpower which can be thrown into the conflict, outnumbering even the hordes of troops which Soviet Russia can mobilise with ease, would seem to be far more useful to Nazi Germany.
As I have said more than once, the issue is that China is not a threat to the Soviet Union at this time in any way, shape, or form. China's population is much larger than Japan's, true, so in theory they can field larger armies. But again, how can you keep them supplied? As you can see from what I wrote above, I have serious doubts about the potential of an alt-Burma Road to do so, but in fighting the Soviets you wouldn't even have that. China had significant trouble in this time period keeping their troops supplied with rifles, bullets, and food in China. How do you propose to do so in the wastes of Siberia? Finally, even if Chinese armies would be far larger than Japan's, they will also be far less effective. It is well-known that Japanese armies fared badly against their Soviet peers at Nomonhan. But at least the Japanese had a fighter (the Ki-27) which could go head-to-head with the I-15 and I-16. At least the Japanese had bombers to hit Soviet airbases. Japanese 37mm anti-tank guns were fairly ineffective against Soviet armor, and they didn't have enough of them, but at least they existed. China can field a big army, at least in theory, but sending a half-starved short of ammo Chinese army to fight against the Soviets with no air cover, no anti-tank weapons, no tanks, and very very little artillery is not going to be an effective strategy.
The Chinese knew this as well as the Germans did.

IOTL, the Japanese had the momentum and the firepower to continue their advance far further into India after the Allied retreated from Burma in disarray in May 1942, but refrained from renewing their offensives after the monsoon. The reason for this seems obvious enough- the size of the Japanese force deployed in the Burma campaign just wasn't large enough to simultaneously continue the advance into India and occupy their newly conquered territories across South-East Asia. ITTL, the Chinese would have more than enough troops at their disposal for this to be a non-issue, at least until they manage to push as far west as Bengal.
The fact that they were running low on manpower was crucial, but so was the fact that they were reaching the end of their supply tether. And their supply tether is infinitely longer than any a Chinese army would have. Once again, having a lot of bodies to put into the army doesn't matter that much if you can't keep them in ammo and food.
The key to either a Chinese or Japanese ally would be to upgrade their armor to be able to more effectively oppose Soviet armor and artillery. My understanding is that the Japanese army opposed the Soviets once or twice during the Japanese invasion of China (The China Incident). The result is that the Soviets are more effective use of armor and artillery which shocked the Japanese.

The Japanese Army would need to upgrade their armor starting around '36 or so to be able to effectively engage Soviet forces.
I have my doubts. Militarist Japan was able in OTL to build fighter designs that were competitive (or would have been competitive, if not for shortages of good-quality alloys, fuel, spare parts, etc. near the end of the war) with almost anything the Allies build during the war. It didn't matter, though, because they could never build more than a relative handful of them. If Japan receives detailed blueprints of advanced tank designs early in the conflict, that could help immensely, but I still don't think the state of the Japanese motor, steel, etc. industry would allow for more than a relative handful to be build. I don't think it would ever really be enough to go toe-to-toe with the Soviets.

I'd almost say ASB, or butterflies from about 1300 A.D.

Japan considered Korea's only purpose being a staging ground for the invasion of Japan. And of course, once a Japanese invasion of Korea is under-way the Chinese are looking at Korea's only purpose being an invasion staging ground by Japan.

Difficult to see how this would be dealt with.
1300 AD? Seriously? I mean, one could argue that the Teutons have been expanding at the expense of the eastern Slavic peoples since the middle ages, but no one uses that as a reason why Operation Barbarossa was inevitable. A Japan that begins to expand abroad will inevitably expand towards China, as it is an obvious target. However, let's not forget that, for example, in 1928 Japan was pushing for Chinese tariff autonomy (under a liberal internationalist foreign minister), much to the delight of the KMT and the disgust of the other concession holders (the US, the UK, France, etc.) It is easy to think of PoDs that would prevent the Second Sino-Japanese War if you go back about a decade before it started. If you allow yourself to go back two decades, it is easy. Certainly a PoD going back to the 1300s is far from necessary.
 
You haven't heard of the Burma Road then? IOTL, in the dire early stages of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, it only took a year to construct, with the project commencing in 1937 and completed by 1938; and the construction of the first and by far the most difficult section of the Ledo Road extension into India, across the Patkai range, took roughly the same time. It'd certainly take the KMT Chinese longer to construct these supply routes in wartime conditions, but it'd be just a matter of time- and if the Burma Road is still constructed ITTL, the initial supply route is already in place from the outset of hostilities in the South Asian Theatre of WW2.
How can the Chinese construct these roads when they have the British colonial forces interfering with their military operations, and when the Japanese are either threatening them or actively fighting them in their own country?

Another reason why a military alliance with a more successful KMT China would be considered a viable alternative to an alliance with the Japanese. For him the number one enemy would always be the Soviet Union, not the British, French or U.S of Americans; and when taking on the Soviets, what use will Japan's shiny modern navy be to the Nazis in the conflict? An ally with a vast reserves of manpower which can be thrown into the conflict, outnumbering even the hordes of troops which Soviet Russia can mobilise with ease, would seem to be far more useful to Nazi Germany.
How can the Chinese, with little in the way of industry or infrastructure, hope to create a mechanized, well-armed, and well-air-supported force that can either drive all the way through Inner and Outer Mongolia to Siberia, through Qinghai and Xinjiang to Central Asia, or through Japanese-occupied Manchuria to Primorsk? The former two options are probably impossible for the Chinese now, in 2014, not to mention for the unstable and weak KMT with an even less-developed national industry and infrastructural network to work with.
 

SunDeep

Banned
I think the problem is that several people are too set in their perspective, looking at the scenario solely in the context of our own TL. We're not talking about Germany switching its alliance with Imperial Japan for one with KMT China in the middle of WW2, or even at the start of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War- doing so at this late stage would be idiotic in the extreme. We're talking about a scenario in which the Germans never ditched its traditional alliance with China for better relation with Japan in the first place. The point at which to do so seems obvious- at the earliest point of Nazi Germany's divergence from its former pro-Chinese policy in the Far East. Namely, the Anti-Comintern Pact, which would later form the basis for the Axis Powers in OTL's WW2.

It's worth remembering that IOTL, the Anti-Comintern Pact was conceived by the Nazis in 1935 specifically as a means to balance their military and economic interests in the Far East, attempting to bring BOTH Imperial Japan and KMT China in together on their side by creating an alliance against the communists. All you need to do is to somehow deal with the lack of interest from the Chinese IOTL, and China would have been included in the Anti-Comintern Pact from the outset as planned. IOTL, the public outcry after the leaking of the He-Umezu Agreement to the press made such a position untenable for the Chinese; but in an ATL where the He-Umezu Agreement remains secret, at least until the start of 1936, it would politically be far easier for KMT China to consider entering into the Anti-Comintern Pact. (And given what happened in Japan in February 1936, who knows? You might even see the IJA coup strengthened enough by the alliance with the Chinese to succeed, Okada fleeing from the capital, and Japan requesting Chinese aid in order to sway the tide on behalf of the imperialist faction in Japan, with much closer ties being forged in the process and a far less militarist Japan coming into being as a result.)

And if they do, you have to assume that OTL's 2nd Sino-Japanese War is circumvented- and if it is, then KMT China's industrial base still continues to grow in accordance with the Three Year Plan, with key industrialised (at least, more so than the remainder of China) regions in North-East China remaining in the hands of the KMT, instead of being seized and commandeered by the Japanese as they were IOTL, or having to be relocated and built back up from scratch far from the front lines. Even on the off-chance that the war still goes ahead, the IJA will still be the aggressors. The Japanese would have to break away from the Pact to declare war against the Chinese, and ITTL, with an existing alliance including both China and Japan- and in all likelihood, Italy as well by this stage, with TTL's original pact signed almost a year earlier than IOTL- Nazi Germany would have no choice but to support the Chinese against the Japanese for breaking the Pact.

If they don't, then the value of the Axis' military alliance becomes worthless, and Germany faces the very real prospect of the other Axis Powers simply walking away at this early stage, severely hampering any efforts to pursue its goals of German expansionism, making it all but impossible to force the Allies into the policy of appeasement they adopted in the run-up to OTL's WW2. And a war waged against the Allies, or even the Soviet Union, by a Nazi Germany which stands alone would be doomed to failure (even more inevitably than that waged by OTL's Axis Powers), which should be blatantly obvious even to someone as deluded as Adolf Hitler.
 
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SunDeep

Banned
It's worth remembering that IOTL, the Anti-Comintern Pact was conceived by the Nazis in 1935 specifically as a means to balance their military and economic interests in the Far East, attempting to bring BOTH Imperial Japan and KMT China in together on their side by creating an alliance against the communists. All you need to do is to somehow deal with the lack of interest from the Chinese IOTL, and China would have been included in the Anti-Comintern Pact from the outset as planned. IOTL, the public outcry after the leaking of the He-Umezu Agreement to the press made such a position untenable for the Chinese; but in an ATL where the He-Umezu Agreement remains secret, at least until the start of 1936, it would politically be far easier for KMT China to consider entering into the Anti-Comintern Pact.

Also, just a thought; for another potentially simpler way to bring the Anti-Comintern Pact into being as originally conceived, with both Japan and China as signatories, you could consider facilitating this, not by strengthening the KMT, but by weakening it- or rather, by strengthening the communists, and the CSR (perhaps by having Mao Zedong retain leadership of the Red Army of China instead of having him replaced by Wang Ming for political reasons) to the extent where they're perceived to be a greater threat to China's national integrity than the Japanese are. ITTL, KMT China would certainly be the weakest member of the Anti-Comintern Pact when the agreement is signed; and the effective Chinese Civil War against the Communists could become Japan's equivalent of the Spanish Civil War, with the Japanese offering aid and sending troops to gain combat experience and greater influence over the KMT government.

In this scenario, parallels could be drawn between the roles of KMT China in the Axis and India in the Allied camp. On its own, its military industrial base is primitive, and it certainly isn't capable of projecting power beyond its borders on its own; but its potential production capabilities and resources, including its vast manpower, still make it a crucial member to bring on board, going some way towards swinging the balance. And in long run, if the Japanese and/or the Germans outsource wartime production there in the same way that Britain did in India, there's no reason why China's industrial capacity can't see the same sort of marked increase as India's, an increase which saw India become the fourth largest producer of industrial goods in the world by the end of the war. In the greater scheme of the conflict, you could probably argue that India played a much greater part in securing the Allies' victory in WW2 than France did. Why should the significance of the role that TTL's China could play as a member of the Axis in WW2 be judged solely on the basis of its potential combat strength at the outset of hostilities...?
 
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I think I should raise the issue of a Moscow-Tokyo Pact, with an openly Nazi allied China is on the U.S.S.R's border & Japan having designs on China along with Stalin's roving eye for the main chance. KMT China is fucked.

The U.S.S.R starts shipping oil to Japan and Stalin or Molotov has a cozy sit-down with the Japanese goverment/envoy and agrees a carve up of China.


Beyond that I feel too many posters on this thread have played Hearts of Iron, and now think any basket-case of a country can a space-filling empire in a couple of years...
 
Also, just a thought; for another potentially simpler way to bring the Anti-Comintern Pact into being as originally conceived, with both Japan and China as signatories, you could consider facilitating this, not by strengthening the KMT, but by weakening it- or rather, by strengthening the communists, and the CSR (perhaps by having Mao Zedong retain leadership of the Red Army of China instead of having him replaced by Wang Ming for political reasons) to the extent where they're perceived to be a greater threat to China's national integrity than the Japanese are. ITTL, KMT China would certainly be the weakest member of the Anti-Comintern Pact when the agreement is signed; and the effective Chinese Civil War against the Communists could become Japan's equivalent of the Spanish Civil War, with the Japanese offering aid and sending troops to gain combat experience and greater influence over the KMT government.

In this scenario, parallels could be drawn between the roles of KMT China in the Axis and India in the Allied camp. On its own, its military industrial base is primitive, and it certainly isn't capable of projecting power beyond its borders on its own; but its potential production capabilities and resources, including its vast manpower, still make it a crucial member to bring on board, going some way towards swinging the balance. And in long run, if the Japanese and/or the Germans outsource wartime production there in the same way that Britain did in India, there's no reason why China's industrial capacity can't see the same sort of marked increase as India's, an increase which saw India become the fourth largest producer of industrial goods in the world by the end of the war. In the greater scheme of the conflict, you could probably argue that India played a much greater part in securing the Allies' victory in WW2 than France did. Why should the significance of the role that TTL's China could play as a member of the Axis in WW2 be judged solely on the basis of its potential combat strength at the outset of hostilities...?

If you want to know why this thread has mostly not discussed having Japan and KMT China both in alliance or on very good terms with Germany, I beleive it is because you opened this thread by asking about having Nationalist China in alliance with Nazi Germany instead of Militarist Japan. If you want to know why we have mostly discussed the potential military power of these two countries, it's because your first post talking about China joining in Operation Barbarossa, which I took to mean you were speaking of a military alliance.

I believe it would be possible to have both Japan and China sign the ACP. After all, the pact was meant to be a wider alliance, and both Germany and Japan tried to get other countries to join over the years. It may be harder to get both countries in a real alliance, though, as if Japan doesn't start a total war in China then the breach in relations with the West may be less fatal, and domestic (especially naval) resistence to an outright military alliance with Germany may well be stronger. I'm sure I don't need to mention that if Japan is in a total war with China, then neither side will agree to be in the same alliance. But I do think it is possible to have both nations on friendly terms with Germany.

I like the idea of Japan and possibly other countries outsourcing wartime production to China. However, it will be very hard for China to see the same sort of growth during the wartime years that India did, for the very simply reason that Germany, and even Germany + Japan, are not the UK. They can't invest in industry in China on the same scale that the UK did, and at least Germany cannot really get finished goods back to Europe. The last makes me question the usefulness to Germany of war production in East Asia. Japan could invest in a lot of war production in China--look at the huge industrial growth in Manchuria from 1931-1945--but obviously they have less capital in general than Germany, much less the UK, still less the US. There is no reason China could not see growth in industry with the investment of foreign capital, but getting that captial might be tricky. The UK has the capital and, most importantly, the ability to get finished goods back to the metropole, but they would probably prefer to invest in industry in their own empire. Japan could invest, but relatively little, and even this would require PoDs (plausible PoDs, but still) creating a better relationship between Japan and China in the 1930s. The USSR could invest, and can move decent quantities of goods to industrial centers. They would likely be a good investor candidate, but they are expanding their own industry incredibly quickly at the time, which would mean a shortage of capital and industrial experts. Finally, while the KMT was willing to accept military goods from the Soviets, you'd probably have to find a way to lower distrust on both sides in order to really ramp up investment. The last candidate, I think, is the US. They certaintly have the capital and the expertise. In OTL, the US tended to ramp up production at home, as they could build all they needed and more there. But it might be possible to give them a reason to invest in China. The problem I see is that they can't send much investment to China (nor bring back finished goods, should they choose to) if China is blockaded by Japan, and if China is not at war with anyone, then what strong motivation does the US have to invest so much in China? Maybe you could get a simulataneously international/interventionist and anti-communist US, which chooses to build up war production in China under the idea that a weak China might go Red and close the country to US business interests? I'm not sure.

Finally, I would just like to reiterate that it is very hard indeed to drastically increase industry in less than a generation. It isn't just a matter of building infrastructure (e.g. rail, roads, electricity), building factories, and finding the capital to do both the above. The hardest part is developing a trained industrial workforce. You don't just need shop floor workers, you need expert foremen, you need trained industrial engineers. If you look at the experience of the Soviet Union, which industrialized just about as fast as anyone could, they were constantly worried about shortages of industrial engineers, draftsmen, etc. They constantly poured funding into vocational schools and universities. There are real and hard limits to how fast anyone can industrialize, even with all the funding in the world.
 
Another problem is that even if the Japanese militarists are in 1935 willing to hold back on further penetration into China, the Chinese public is still infuriated with prior Japanese aggression. I'm not sure if Chiang could afford to cooperate with the Japanese in that case.
 
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