WI - The British army re-armed rationally

Using obscure language as a code substitute has its pros and cons. The principle problem being the wider the use the more likely the enemy will make the effort to translate. They can be of some value for very low level tactical communication. The information at that level has a very short useful life and is low priority for the professional sig intel units. Once you move to radio messages in & out of a division or corps HQ you have the attention of specialized signal intel units, and those come equipped with fluent translators. If something new comes up the intel sections are fairly efficient at finding a way to translate. One of the weaknesses in Japans signals security was the belief the Japanese language was too difficult for Americans or Brits to learn and provide enough translators. At one level they were correct. it takes years to become fluent. However military messages are by nature brief and depend on a limited and standardized vocabulary for efficient transmission and clarity. By focusing training on the specifics of reading Japanese military vocabulary the Allies could train efficient translators in under a year. Those actually fluent in Japanese could concentrate on the more complex high level messages or documents.

One of the Italian infantry divisions drew the bulk of its men from northern Italy where the Friulian, a Phaeto-Rhomanic variant was spoken. They used their native speech on the radios and baffled the British signals intel monitors for some time. Eventually the Brits figured it out, tho the problem became irrelevant as the division was captured in Africa.

Another disadvantage of using language as a security measure is that while the enemy may not be able to translate they can instantly identify the unit. That gives up useful OB and deployment clues. You want your radio transmissions to be as cookie cutter identical as possible to keep the other side guessing about the transmitters identity.
 
Welsh Regiments used to use Welsh speakers for radio operators. The probability of a German or Japanese monitor speaking Welsh was very small.

I bet that there were some very confused German radio operators when they heard that coming over the radio.
 
Welch was not entirely unknown in Germany. Aside from the academic linguists in the universities there were the bar tenders & others in the ports. Welch seamen were not uncommon and it behooves those in the hospitality trade to cater to their customers language. In the bars of Numazu Japan I ran into twenty year old bar tenders who could get by in three or four European or Asian languages. They made me feel uneducated :(


I think when it comes to codes, all solutions are temporary.

Amen
 

Sior

Banned
Using obscure language as a code substitute has its pros and cons. The principle problem being the wider the use the more likely the enemy will make the effort to translate. They can be of some value for very low level tactical communication. The information at that level has a very short useful life and is low priority for the professional sig intel units. Once you move to radio messages in & out of a division or corps HQ you have the attention of specialized signal intel units, and those come equipped with fluent translators. If something new comes up the intel sections are fairly efficient at finding a way to translate. One of the weaknesses in Japans signals security was the belief the Japanese language was too difficult for Americans or Brits to learn and provide enough translators. At one level they were correct. it takes years to become fluent. However military messages are by nature brief and depend on a limited and standardized vocabulary for efficient transmission and clarity. By focusing training on the specifics of reading Japanese military vocabulary the Allies could train efficient translators in under a year. Those actually fluent in Japanese could concentrate on the more complex high level messages or documents.

One of the Italian infantry divisions drew the bulk of its men from northern Italy where the Friulian, a Phaeto-Rhomanic variant was spoken. They used their native speech on the radios and baffled the British signals intel monitors for some time. Eventually the Brits figured it out, tho the problem became irrelevant as the division was captured in Africa.

Another disadvantage of using language as a security measure is that while the enemy may not be able to translate they can instantly identify the unit. That gives up useful OB and deployment clues. You want your radio transmissions to be as cookie cutter identical as possible to keep the other side guessing about the transmitters identity.

The Welsh language was only use at unit level and as a layer over standard codes, added in cultural references only known to people from that area would confuse even more. Welsh Regiments tend to recruit from specific areas, Welch Regiment-South Wales, South Wales Borderers-mid Wales, Royal Welsh Fusiliers-North Wales; each with it's own dialects and idiosyncrasies.
 

sharlin

Banned
Axis and Allied armoured developments.

Germany

Flakpanzer Panzer IV ‘Wirbelwind’ and ‘Ostwind’ (as per OTL)

After studying a few captured British flakpanzers the utility of such machines became obvious. This lead to the development of two variants of the Flakpanzer that entered common service in mid 1942. The first had a single barrelled 37mm gun in an open topped shield mount. Originally developed to be mounted on the Panzer III the turret arrangement was too cumbersome and was mated with the Panzer IV to produce a fearsome AA weapon. For low altitude engagements the quad 20mm Wirbelwind mount was just as fearsome and in the opening stages of the Barbarossa campaign where there was little threat from Soviet aircraft it proved to be deadly against light vehicles and infantry. Both machines were produced in limited numbers at first as the need for Panzer IV tanks was greater and the Luftwaffe was usually dominant in any theatre, this changed in late 1943 – early 1944 with both being produced in large numbers.

Panzer IV

Little changed with the Panzer IV, the 50mm L60 was fitted and it was able to penetrate British armour but there were already moves to upgun the tank to give it a more appreciative punch than just being an enlarged Panzer IV. General Rommel was pressing for a more potent gun but development was slow until the first new KwK 40 75mm guns entered service on the Panzer IV F variant, some being deployed to the see-saw battles in North Africa where they outranged any of the British tanks and could punch through their armour with ease. It was this gun that helped lessen the shock of the Soviet KV-1 and T-34 somewhat, but there was not enough of them to go around. Very quickly the 75mm gunned Panzer IV became top priority for the German army as well as an ‘answer’ to the Soviet machines.

VK3601 – Luchs

A machine of mixed parentage and of mixed results the Luchs was a knee jerk response to the appearance of the T-34 and KV-1 tanks and was stricken with a host of bugs, faults and issues that crippled the tank forcing it to be taken out of service within a year. Armed with a fearsome L70 KwK42 75mm gun and well armoured the tanks engine was a poorly designed maintenance nightmare. The four dozen produced were sent to the Leningrad front along with the new Tiger tank and it was a disaster, of the eighteen lost, all but three were due to maintenance and breakdown problems and a dozen suffered catastrophic engine fires. Its replacement the Panther (as per OTL) whilst more complex to produce and build and suffering from reliability problems at first would be later regarded as one of the finest tanks of the war, especially as it was a refinement of the Luchs.

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*VK3601 - Luchs

Tiger Tank

As per OTL – Production halted in 1944.

Panther Tank

As per OTL but suffering from less mechanical issues once it entered service.

Lowe Heavy tank.

The ultimate expression of German tank design the Lowe (Lion) lived up to its name although few were produced and were the sole ‘property’ of the Waffen SS Divisions. A development of the Tiger and Panther the Lowe featured the best of both with wide tracks, sloped armour and a devastating 105mm L/70 gun the 76 tonne behemoth was a nightmare for tanks that faced it. Even the formidable 122mm guns of the Soviet IS guns could not penetrate the well sloped armour of the German tank frontally without being at close range but it was vulnerable to being flanked by faster machines like the American M7 and British Cromwell.

USA

Caught in a doctrinal ‘war’ between with its tank and tank destroyer roles the USA was a late comer to tank production and their first machines were at best, adequate, roughly equivalent to the Matilda/Excelsior in service, late war tanks how ever were far more formidable and showed that the US had learned from experience in North Africa and Italy.

M3 ‘Stonewall’

A variant of the M3 Grant tank the ‘Stonewall’ was its unofficial nickname amongst the troops and was a rather unique machine. Designed to give long range fire support to attacking tanks and act as a tank destroyer the Stonewall started off as a workshop trial in the US. One enterprising designer altered the M3 hull to fit two 75mm sponsons, one port and one starboard. This cost the tank its 37mm turret but a crude cupola was fitted for the commander to look out from. Displayed before the Ordanence board the Stonewall was accepted for production in 1942 as the Grant was already obsolete and the new M4 Sherman was entering service and it seemed a good use for the hulls.

When deployed the machine was praised by the mechanics and logistics but disliked by its 6 man crew who had to fight in its cramped interior. In battle their crews quickly learned to fire one gun after the other, as the blast of both guns firing would kick up a huge amount of dust and dirt, obscuring vision and indicating where the machine was.

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M4 Sherman

As per OTL but built to E8 standards.

M7 Scott - 1944

Designed to supplement and replace the M4 the Scott started life as the T-20 experimental tank and was an evolutionary development, fast, agile and with a sloped hull and good suspention the tank also featured the same 90mm gun of the Hellcat, although the length of the gun did mean it had to return to a fixed elevation to reload. Appearing at the same time as the British Cromwell and its high velocity 77mm gun the Scott and Cromwell were fearsome killers of Panzers and to this day armour fans and TV shows debate the advantages of both and try to figure out which was a superior machine. Most say that the M7 had superior firepower and its engine was more reliable whilst crediting the Cromwell with superior off road mobility and speed, with protection being roughly equal.

Soviet Union.

The Soviet tanks do not differ much from the OTL, the only change being the slightly earlier introduction of the somewhat unsuccessful but fearsome looking IS-3 in limited numbers in 1945 to try and counter the Lowe.
 
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Welsh Regiments used to use Welsh speakers for radio operators. The probability of a German or Japanese monitor speaking Welsh was very small.

Though not zero. I'm reminded of an interview I saw on TV some years back of a Welsh veteran of the Burma campaign (no sources except memory, sorry) who said they regularly used this trick. This guy was an intelligence officer for his unit and after the war was over he got the job of interrogating his Japanese opposite number. The war being over and all, the Japanese guy was pretty forthcoming, and after they'd got a bit friendlier the Welsh guy complimented him on his English and asked him where he'd learned it.

The Japanese guy replied that before the war he'd gone to a British university where he'd had a great time - the locals made him feel really welcome, and went out of their way to help him become fluent. The Welsh guy asked him which university he'd gone to. Bangor, came the reply...

Somewhat more seriously, several German universities have run excellent Celtic language departments since at least the 19thC. This was never a foolproof tactic, and as has already been mentioned was only really used for low level communications or as an add-on to other codes.
 
Very interesting tank development ideas here. Once again the Germans seem to be going for overengineered, rushed projects that inspire as much fear into their own mechanics as the enemy.

Very interesting and original development with the Stonewall.

How different is the Cromwell from OTL?
 

sharlin

Banned
Its the comet of the OTL, the Matilda/Excelsior could be developed no further than taking a 76mm gun from the Sherman on it and was forced to soldier on in that guise until the Cromwell came out along with a 17lber armed heavy tank very similar to the OTL Black Prince but with a more reliable and powerful engine.
 
So I take it the "Cromwell" is faster than the Black prince. Given the fact that British tanks here seem to derive from OTL's infantry tank designs, does this mean that all British tanks are a touch on the slow side?
 

sharlin

Banned
So I take it the "Cromwell" is faster than the Black prince. Given the fact that British tanks here seem to derive from OTL's infantry tank designs, does this mean that all British tanks are a touch on the slow side?

The Cromwell of 1944 is basically the OTL comet, a fast medium that was roughly equal to the Panther in terms of firepower if not protection. The Black Prince is the successor to the Matilda/Excelsior with it being a larger slower tank descended from infantry support stock.

Pre WW2 in this timeline the UK had two tanks

The Valentine - a bastard lovechild of the OTL Valentine and Matilda with a 3lb 47mm gun that was the 'fast' element of the RAC.

The Matilda (later Excelsior, renamed because the War office thought the troop given name was stupid and not suitable.) was a general purpose tank, well armoured but not that fast. Just entering service when the war started and the Valentine was the main tank strength.

The Excelsior saw several upgrades, its final form being armed with an American 76mm gun from their Shermans but further attempts to up gun it to face improving German armour and what intel was coming back from the Russian front failed, the tank simply couldn't be upgraded further. So it soldiered on as the British tank whilst the Valentine was converted into support roles or used in secondary areas (or sent to the Far East) whilst the British worked on two tanks to replace them, working on the fast and slow mix that had served well with the Valentine/Matilda mix which gave them the Cromwell and Black Prince, both of which arrived in 1944.
 
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I can't see how the VK3601 would be a knee jerk response to the T-34 & KV1
The tank had started development in 1940 and a prototype had been built long before the Germans encountered the soviet tanks.
It may have had some technical problems but it would have used the same engine as the Tiger and Panther and may have been more reliable than both.
Of coarse we'll never really know.
 
I dunno E8 Shermans from the get-go and a 90mm armed tank to replace them coming online in 44 thats not too bad.

Something like that would be better than the M3 TD with twin guns shown above. Tho you are nearly back to the M10 TD at that point. There is the danger that if all the M4 medium tanks are armed with a high powered AP gun then they will be inferior at the other 90% of the tasks the US tanks addressed. That is folks will be complaining how criminal it was the US put only AT type guns on its tanks and neglected good HE ammo which resulted in lots of tank crew and infantry killed because of poor ability to suppress unarmored targets, ect... ect...

The M4 with the M1919A4 105mm howitzer could have been produced relatively early in the M4 production era. That would have been a better balance in all around capability as the US 105mm projectiles family included a couple fair AP rounds. 90mm guns would have been a little better, but for some reason the 90mm gun development for tank use took nearly three years. More problems with fitting it inside a turret than expected?
 
Thank you good sir. Nice to see my M3 Stonewall design made it into the TL. Ugly as sin but it did the job. :p

Note: I see in your description of the Stonewall the name "Custer" slips in. Was that intentional?
 
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