Sounds to me like a good description of the Japanese strategy in WWII...
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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27th February
At a meeting of the British War Cabinet to discuss the situation in the Middle East, Australian Prime Minister Robert Menzies agrees to send Australian troops to Greece. He has been informed by telegram by General Blamey that the task is far more uncertain that some of the proponents of the plan have been making out, and he sets the condition that an Australian be put in command (as it is basically an ANZUZ force), and that he is responsible, in case a German invasion forces a withdrawal, for deciding when and where this will happen. Churchill is unhappy about this, but as the only alternative is to give Libya back to Italy by withdrawing the troops there (who in any case will not be ready to fight for some weeks), he agrees.
28th February
France capitulates to Japan's ultimatum to accept its proposals for settlement of the border dispute between its colony in Indochina and Thailand.
The Vichy cabinet's decision in the early hours of the morning came only hours after the Japanese ultimatum expired. Throughout yesterday Japan made it clear that it was ready to implement its proposals by force if necessary.
When the agreement is signed Indochina will cede to Thailand all of Laos west of the Mekong and an important part of north-western Cambodia. Japan wants military bases in southern Indochina and Thailand, and expects to capitalise on its intervention by making a military pact with Thailand.
1st March
The 11th African Division begins a lighting pursuit of the retreating Italian forces in Somaliland north from Mogadishu towards the Ogaden Plateau.
General Cunningham reports on the East African front to Wavell:
"Enemy evacuating whole of Italian Somaliland. Force at Ischia Baidoa apparently withdrew via Neghelli. Free French Div. was unable to cut it off through lack of petrol. Light forces are moving to occupy Lugh Ferrandi and Dolo. Bardera has been occupied.
...Force at Mogadishu has outrun supplies. Harbour cannot be entered for some days pending sweeping operations. Movement of MT by ship to Mogadishu not possible, and rains beginning to render road from Kenya precarious."
An Italian convoy finally sails for North Africa; it carries the advance units of the German 5th Light Division and the Italian Ariete Division. The convoys first task is to avoid the aircraft from Malta searching for it; accordingly for the last 3 days Malta has been heavily bombed by the Luftwaffe and Italian Air Force, which has caused considerable damage as well as reducing the number of aircraft operational on the island. It has also reduced the number of Axis aircraft available, if needed, to support operations in North Africa. The convoy also carries Luftwaffe personnel to allow a fast preparation for an airbase; in particular Rommel wants Me109 fighters to secure his air cover as soon as possible.
2nd March
Eden finds out from General Heywood that the Greek government had failed to carry out the agreement reached at Tatoi and that no order for the withdrawal of troops from Macedonia and Thrace had been given.
Mussolini flies in to Albania, hoping his presence will raise the morale of his troops. It doesn't.
Germany officially admits that its troops (of the XII Army) had entered Bulgaria. According to a High Command communiqué: "The German army, in agreement with the Royal Bulgarian government, has been marching into Bulgaria since Saturday." In the Bulgarian parliament the Prime Minister, Professor Filov, said that Germany had asked permission to send in the troops on a temporary basis in order to "safeguard peace in the Balkans."
All day today the Germans have been pouring into Bulgaria by way of pontoon bridges across the Danube. Meanwhile there are reports that the vanguard of the German forces is already approaching the Greek frontier at four points. With the Luftwaffe present in strength, the German attack on Greece seems imminent.
In London, the Chiefs of Staff estimate that one German armoured division and three motorised divisions could reach the Bulgar-Greek border by March 6, with an infantry division arriving by March 11. This is thought to be the maximum strength that the Germans could field until April 15.
General Wavell is asked how soon his troops will be ready. He replies that the New Zealand Division can sail as soon as transport is arranged, but that it would be unwise to send this formation on its own. He suggests they are immediately sent to Crete, which he needs to hold in any case.
Meanwhile General Cunningham has light forces on to Ferfer (about 200 miles north of Mogadishu and Dolo) which will complete the occupation of Italian Somaliland.
3rd March
During the early morning there are no less than four meetings between the Greek and British military staffs in Athens, trying to agree on a defensive strategy. In the event of an attack on Macedonia the British urge a quick pull back to the Aliakhmon line whereas Papagos clings to the more advanced Nestos line, "If the Yugoslavs should fight, that is where we Greeks should stand", declared Papagos. Dill snapped, "General, you will have to fight that battle."
General Wavell arrives later in the morning in Athens, and some time later General Blamey, the commander-designate of the British forces in Greece, arrived at Tatoi airfield.
In Tunisia, the preparations of the Vichy government for the arrival of the convoy, and the obvious intent of the Italians and the Germans to base themselves in Tunisia to attack the British, has led to considerable civil unrest, and more than a few riots. The local population is quite unwilling to see their country turned into a battleground for the benefit of Italy. Fighting for themselves is one thing, becoming an German-Italian battlefield is something quite different.
At 3am, a military force led by de Tassigny occupies key positions in Tunis, in particular the harbour. The force meets little opposition, in fact many of the men supposedly guarding the installations offer to help. Meanwhile there is fighting on the streets of the capital as forces and police loyal to Vichy contest the city with the rebel forces.
The Italian consulate immediately informs Rome of what is happening; it is obvious that unless the city and harbour area can be secured quickly, there will be nowhere for the convoy to dock. Having the convoy stand off until the situation is resolved is considered unacceptable, as this will just tempt the Royal Navy into sinking it.
At the Tunisian border, Free French troops are put on immediate alert as soon as the news from Tripoli is received. They will move out once it is daylight, having been preparing for a situation like this for some days. With Wavell in Greece, the orders have been issued by O'Connor (who is still the commander of the units), with agreement from the Free French in Cairo.
The RN delivers some 80 Hurricane fighters to Malta. The planes have been flown of the carriers to the west of the island; half of the planes will remain at the island (where the available fighters have been reduced due to the high level of enemy raids), the other 40 will fly in stages to Egypt.
At a meeting of the British War Cabinet to discuss the situation in the Middle East, Australian Prime Minister Robert Menzies agrees to send Australian troops to Greece. He has been informed by telegram by General Blamey that the task is far more uncertain that some of the proponents of the plan have been making out, and he sets the condition that an Australian be put in command (as it is basically an ANZUZ force), and that he is responsible, in case a German invasion forces a withdrawal, for deciding when and where this will happen. Churchill is unhappy about this, but as the only alternative is to give Libya back to Italy by withdrawing the troops there (who in any case will not be ready to fight for some weeks), he agrees.
28th February
France capitulates to Japan's ultimatum to accept its proposals for settlement of the border dispute between its colony in Indochina and Thailand.
The Vichy cabinet's decision in the early hours of the morning came only hours after the Japanese ultimatum expired. Throughout yesterday Japan made it clear that it was ready to implement its proposals by force if necessary.
When the agreement is signed Indochina will cede to Thailand all of Laos west of the Mekong and an important part of north-western Cambodia. Japan wants military bases in southern Indochina and Thailand, and expects to capitalise on its intervention by making a military pact with Thailand.
1st March
The 11th African Division begins a lighting pursuit of the retreating Italian forces in Somaliland north from Mogadishu towards the Ogaden Plateau.
General Cunningham reports on the East African front to Wavell:
"Enemy evacuating whole of Italian Somaliland. Force at Ischia Baidoa apparently withdrew via Neghelli. Free French Div. was unable to cut it off through lack of petrol. Light forces are moving to occupy Lugh Ferrandi and Dolo. Bardera has been occupied.
...Force at Mogadishu has outrun supplies. Harbour cannot be entered for some days pending sweeping operations. Movement of MT by ship to Mogadishu not possible, and rains beginning to render road from Kenya precarious."
An Italian convoy finally sails for North Africa; it carries the advance units of the German 5th Light Division and the Italian Ariete Division. The convoys first task is to avoid the aircraft from Malta searching for it; accordingly for the last 3 days Malta has been heavily bombed by the Luftwaffe and Italian Air Force, which has caused considerable damage as well as reducing the number of aircraft operational on the island. It has also reduced the number of Axis aircraft available, if needed, to support operations in North Africa. The convoy also carries Luftwaffe personnel to allow a fast preparation for an airbase; in particular Rommel wants Me109 fighters to secure his air cover as soon as possible.
2nd March
Eden finds out from General Heywood that the Greek government had failed to carry out the agreement reached at Tatoi and that no order for the withdrawal of troops from Macedonia and Thrace had been given.
Mussolini flies in to Albania, hoping his presence will raise the morale of his troops. It doesn't.
Germany officially admits that its troops (of the XII Army) had entered Bulgaria. According to a High Command communiqué: "The German army, in agreement with the Royal Bulgarian government, has been marching into Bulgaria since Saturday." In the Bulgarian parliament the Prime Minister, Professor Filov, said that Germany had asked permission to send in the troops on a temporary basis in order to "safeguard peace in the Balkans."
All day today the Germans have been pouring into Bulgaria by way of pontoon bridges across the Danube. Meanwhile there are reports that the vanguard of the German forces is already approaching the Greek frontier at four points. With the Luftwaffe present in strength, the German attack on Greece seems imminent.
In London, the Chiefs of Staff estimate that one German armoured division and three motorised divisions could reach the Bulgar-Greek border by March 6, with an infantry division arriving by March 11. This is thought to be the maximum strength that the Germans could field until April 15.
General Wavell is asked how soon his troops will be ready. He replies that the New Zealand Division can sail as soon as transport is arranged, but that it would be unwise to send this formation on its own. He suggests they are immediately sent to Crete, which he needs to hold in any case.
Meanwhile General Cunningham has light forces on to Ferfer (about 200 miles north of Mogadishu and Dolo) which will complete the occupation of Italian Somaliland.
3rd March
During the early morning there are no less than four meetings between the Greek and British military staffs in Athens, trying to agree on a defensive strategy. In the event of an attack on Macedonia the British urge a quick pull back to the Aliakhmon line whereas Papagos clings to the more advanced Nestos line, "If the Yugoslavs should fight, that is where we Greeks should stand", declared Papagos. Dill snapped, "General, you will have to fight that battle."
General Wavell arrives later in the morning in Athens, and some time later General Blamey, the commander-designate of the British forces in Greece, arrived at Tatoi airfield.
In Tunisia, the preparations of the Vichy government for the arrival of the convoy, and the obvious intent of the Italians and the Germans to base themselves in Tunisia to attack the British, has led to considerable civil unrest, and more than a few riots. The local population is quite unwilling to see their country turned into a battleground for the benefit of Italy. Fighting for themselves is one thing, becoming an German-Italian battlefield is something quite different.
At 3am, a military force led by de Tassigny occupies key positions in Tunis, in particular the harbour. The force meets little opposition, in fact many of the men supposedly guarding the installations offer to help. Meanwhile there is fighting on the streets of the capital as forces and police loyal to Vichy contest the city with the rebel forces.
The Italian consulate immediately informs Rome of what is happening; it is obvious that unless the city and harbour area can be secured quickly, there will be nowhere for the convoy to dock. Having the convoy stand off until the situation is resolved is considered unacceptable, as this will just tempt the Royal Navy into sinking it.
At the Tunisian border, Free French troops are put on immediate alert as soon as the news from Tripoli is received. They will move out once it is daylight, having been preparing for a situation like this for some days. With Wavell in Greece, the orders have been issued by O'Connor (who is still the commander of the units), with agreement from the Free French in Cairo.
The RN delivers some 80 Hurricane fighters to Malta. The planes have been flown of the carriers to the west of the island; half of the planes will remain at the island (where the available fighters have been reduced due to the high level of enemy raids), the other 40 will fly in stages to Egypt.
That would explain why you seem to have missed Astrodragon's rebuttals to Just Leo's comments, or that Just Leo has criticised aspects of Astrodragon's TL that have been explained in the TL already or are not applicable due to the POD. I would genuinely believe you were actually interested in the realism of Astrodragon's TL if you weren't just a bitter Greek chorus to Just Leo's criticisms. You need to accept that your comments have been counter-argued to the author's satisfaction but not your own and move on. Repeating your arguments in such a passive-aggressive manner (it is your opinion that this TL is not realistic, do not state it as fact. It is your opinion that it uses apparently dubious research, etc) will not achieve anything. I find it incredible that you quoted that post of CalBear's without following his advice in it: "If you don't like it, DON'T read it."
IIRC, some of the Canadian Flower's were built in Great Lakes yards but the lock systems for the St Lawrence River canal system were too small at the time for anything bigger than 255ft long.
Garrison
Donor
I was thinking today that someone is bound to warn the Axis what's happening. Question is even if Rommel gets ashore without getting chewed up and somehow secures the port what sort of state is it going to be in? I wouldn't be surprised that if De Tassigny and the Free French can't hold it they will do their level best to put it out of action, and that doesn't even touch on what the RN and RAF might do.
Of course barring a minor miracle(from their point of view) the Vichy government is finished; and if Hitler orders the occupation of Vichy France Rommel can probably add Algeria to his list of headaches.
Rommel will be his usual energizer bunny self, but he won't be a happy energizer bunny...
Garrison
Donor
Rommel will be his usual energizer bunny self, but he won't be a happy energizer bunny...
It's just a shame we won't see the expression on Rommel's face when Hitler asks him how long it will take to reach the Suez Canal...
well i wonder how long it will be before all of French Africa will fall to the allies, while I think Greece will still fall, due to the fact that Libya is secure and more resources can be spent in Greece, I think Crete and maybe places like Rhodes won't fall, which will cause major problems later on
Hyperion
Banned
With North Africa secure, this will free up aircraft carriers for other uses.
Right now, longer ranged aircraft aside, they still need them to get aircraft into Malta.
With Algeria and Tunisia on side, the British just need to carry the aircraft as far as Gibraltar, and they can transit through land bases from there, though it would probably take at least a couple of months to get the logistics set up.
Another big advantage, specifically with Malta, if Tunisia and Algeria are open to allied shipping, they can take advantage of coastal shipping and smaller ships to run supplies in and out, saving larger ships for use elsewhere.
Another advantage, once logistics are set up, Malta can switch it's squadrons to mainly fighters, while larger bombers can be kept back in Tunisia or Algeria. Still close enough to hit targets in Sicily and southern Italy, but out of range of the Luftwaffe and Italian air attacks on their bases.
Right now, longer ranged aircraft aside, they still need them to get aircraft into Malta.
With Algeria and Tunisia on side, the British just need to carry the aircraft as far as Gibraltar, and they can transit through land bases from there, though it would probably take at least a couple of months to get the logistics set up.
Another big advantage, specifically with Malta, if Tunisia and Algeria are open to allied shipping, they can take advantage of coastal shipping and smaller ships to run supplies in and out, saving larger ships for use elsewhere.
Another advantage, once logistics are set up, Malta can switch it's squadrons to mainly fighters, while larger bombers can be kept back in Tunisia or Algeria. Still close enough to hit targets in Sicily and southern Italy, but out of range of the Luftwaffe and Italian air attacks on their bases.
Just to be clear here. de Tassigny is the commander of all forces in Tunisia. There should be no rebel or loyalist forces at this stage - he can simply order redeployments from from units he trusts into strategic areas, and send units he considers unreliable elsewhere. Given his orders and the riots, he can easily justify it to the Vichy government in the exceedingly unlikely event he is asked that he is replacing unreliable men with reliable ones. He would even be telling the truth, just not the truth they think they hear.
At this stage, when he is still apparently obeying orders from Vichy, any resistance is very unlikely, as he is not publicly a rebel. He is merely the officer in charge issuing legitimate orders, and even the pro-Vichy elements of the military police would have no compunction about shooting or arresting for mutiny anyone who refused. After all, as far as they know, he's actually following orders.
There should be no rebels or not until after the guns start firing on the Italian convoy. After all, only one thing matters - the gun battery is manned by a single unit of 75 men, and de Tassigny should have no trouble making sure his own men control that. After the convoy is sunk, even units with pro-Vichy leanings know the die is cast, and would defend against an attempted landing by the Italians.
There should also be no warning. de Tassigny was a very competent man, this would be disguised as routine troop rotation, or he would be very able to say that the redeployment was designed to ensure reliability amongst the troops.
Um. I take your point, but I'm sure VICHY considers him a rebel...
Given that the authorities would surely be expecting trouble of some sort (I think it likely that the populace would be very agaisnt being fought over by the Germand and Italians, if nothing else), the fact that he has got control of the harbour guns, and his men in the city (and very probably outside as well) shows hes competant.
OTOH, I suspect he also would prefer to arrive at a solution without too much fighting, and he DOES know the Allies (and a Free French Brigade in particular) and waiting outside Tunisia (who do you think sent that carful of officers?
I'll see if I can make your points a bit clearer in the next bit, which shows what happens to Tunis and that convoy...
Would that be the convoy of ships that suddenly devlope large holes in the hull and boyancy problems?
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belated questions on the LL Corvettes
is the design equivalent to the Original Gladiolus Flower class
i.e. 925t/205'
or is it more akin to the modified long forecastle design
1015t/208'
I ask partly because the mods in general had much better AA (common in this ATL)
and
were equiped for Hedgehog (which seems further forward in this ATL)
also if being built in the US is the main gun going to be the 3"DP as in the OTL DEs?
because the RN insisted on a DP and the americans had no equivalent of the 4"
(they had the magnificent 5"/38 but thats too big for a corvette)
is the design equivalent to the Original Gladiolus Flower class
i.e. 925t/205'
or is it more akin to the modified long forecastle design
1015t/208'
I ask partly because the mods in general had much better AA (common in this ATL)
and
were equiped for Hedgehog (which seems further forward in this ATL)
also if being built in the US is the main gun going to be the 3"DP as in the OTL DEs?
because the RN insisted on a DP and the americans had no equivalent of the 4"
(they had the magnificent 5"/38 but thats too big for a corvette)
Probably the early version, they wanted them asap.
hedgehog isnt early, but they know its coming - the frigates were designed for it before it was ready
I did read one criticism last year of the OTL River class in that they mounted hedgehog in A position and the gun in B position...the person criticising the design didn't seem to realise that Hedgehog wasn't around when the Rivers were designed and the gun was in B position to keep it out of the spray.
Well they would, if they knew why he was doing what he was doing. Fortunately for him, preparing to defect involves doing exactly the same things as preparing to receive German forces, so there's no way to know he's not loyal.
Remember that in Tunisia he is the authorities under the Vichy system. He's in charge of pretty much everything in this situation.
The populace, being largely indigenous Tunisians, would care very little, either way.
The thing is that he's in charge to begin with, all he needs to do is remain that way. He's the leader, and any unit that disobeys is mutinying without any reall apparent reason. After all, if he gives a unit of men doing a boring job leave and replaces them with another - they're not going to complain.
OTOH, I suspect he also would prefer to arrive at a solution without too much fighting, and he DOES know the Allies (and a Free French Brigade in particular) and waiting outside Tunisia (who do you think sent that carful of officers?
He needs to do no fighting at all. This can be an entirely silent revolution - as long as he keeps pro-Vichy officers in the dark long enough he can allow the British to fly forces into airfields he controls or send an alert that an attempt at sizxing the port by coup de main, and who would know any different.
Showing once yet again that 'designed for but not with' has a long tradition in British military procurement and isn't just a modern phenomenon. But unlike modern times they're pretty much guaranteed to actually get the systems added as soon as they become available.
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