I could imagine non-confidence in Lord North by other means (such as the very first motion of no confidence as in OTL), which lead to a snap election to get someone more "amicable" to get American representation rammed through.
A World Without: Farewell America
- Thread starter EnglishCanuck
- Start date
I could imagine non-confidence in Lord North by other means (such as the very first motion of no confidence as in OTL), which lead to a snap election to get someone more "amicable" to get American representation rammed through.
i think that if your lifting the prohibitions on movement beyond the appalachians...to reward loyalist...there most likely ventures are going to be to the Ohio valley first travel to upper Quebec or Southern Ontario would mean traversing the wilderness of Western NY and what would presumabley still be the Iroquois confederacy. A little more difficult I would think. Traversing to the Upper St. lawrence means traversing the Mohawk to Oswego or the Champlain/Richelieu Valley to French Canada first. idèd also suspect that Frenchsettlement west of Montreal would permanently be lifted as well as they would have been as loyalist as any of the English loyalists. thus Upper Canada in TTL probably ends up as much French Canadian or perhaps slightly more so than English American loyalist. I would still see separate and perhaps somewhat divergent administrations remaining north and south of the lakes even within a Br. Empire.
Mind you just thinking about it...ohio Valley Upper Canada...it would all be prov. Of Quebec. but it would probably get subdivided at some point north and south of the lakes as a natural first division. it does not necessarily mean trouble but It will mean that the area north of the lakes is likely to have its own distinctive cultural peculiarities and institutions relative to the provinces to the south.
Mind you just thinking about it...ohio Valley Upper Canada...it would all be prov. Of Quebec. but it would probably get subdivided at some point north and south of the lakes as a natural first division. it does not necessarily mean trouble but It will mean that the area north of the lakes is likely to have its own distinctive cultural peculiarities and institutions relative to the provinces to the south.
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Right, who would ask for representation though? All the leaders of America have been shot.
Chapter 3: The Man they call Jefferson.
After the failed revolution in America many of the intellectual founding fathers fled abroad. John Adams fled to Spain where he would devote the rest of his life to both publishing anti-British propaganda and the development of a Republican movement in that country. Alexander Hamilton fled with Arnold into the wilderness and used this time to refine his ideas into ones that could be used in a modern government with consequences well known today. And yet another, Thomas Jefferson, escaped to France. It took six months for Jefferson to successfully navigate his way to New Orleans where he and thirty other like-minded men managed to board a ship bound for the French island of Haiti. From there Jefferson and company boarded another ship and soon arrived in France. Jefferson spent an amount of time seeking out those who might finance an expedition of men to join Arnold in his fight against the British, when this proved unbecoming he travelled to Paris and immersed himself in the turbulent political climate of France.
The Paris Jefferson settled into in 1782 was one rife for political strife and he quickly inserted himself into what would become the growing revolutionary movement. In this he found himself yet another opponent. He successfully debated a young politician by the name of Robespierre on many occasions during his stay in Paris. He argued that a central national government was no different than a king and was more likely to lead to yet another tyranny in its place. The two quickly became ideological enemies as Jefferson recruited more to his cause.
Throughout his stay he consistently and almost incessantly preached his ideals of Republicanism. The idea that the peasant farmer was the backbone of the nation and he had the right of voting and protecting his home from foreign invaders. However, his ideals experienced a subtle change in his growing exposure to the salons of Paris Jefferson grew very familiar with the members of French middle class. His writings are influenced by this change in thought, for instance in 1784 he wrote:
“The man of the city is as admirable as the proud peasant who tills the field and prospers by the sweat of his brow. While peasant toils to ensure the defense and industry of the land the man of the city is the man who guides the peasant in his duty and ensures he is not wronged by his government. This is a man who fights for the rights of all men and who is dutifully bound to politics as the peasant is to his plough and musket for he is the one who ensures that these things are never taken from him. The man of the city raises the rallying cry against tyranny and enslavement it is he who shall bear the torch of Liberty in the dark night that stretches across Europe.” ~from “Urban Patriots”
Jefferson was a thoroughly revolutionary figure and as such had many poor run-ins with the law. He was jailed for spreading propaganda in 1786. His arrest sparked protests in Paris as his essays had become quite popular among both the urban middle class and those in the country. He was released reluctantly in 1787 and he promptly went back to publishing indecent essays. With the calling of the Assembly of Notables he published his support for reform and the formation of local councils in order to decide the nation’s issues.
He was also known for his scathing attacks on the Catholic Church which made him infamous in some circles. He regularly berated the Church and Pope for being “relics of a barbarian age” and that the clergies claim to many lands were “not ordained by God nor the people but instead a self-imposed tyranny of false prophets and tithe collectors who seek to ride on the backs of common men on the road to riches in this life as to comfort them from their damnation in the next”. An apocryphal tale exists of Jefferson walking the street and seeing a priest. The priest is berating a man for not giving himself wholly up to God and the King. Jefferson approaches and says “But what man should give himself up to God that does not strike down the king for his excesses?” the shocked priest asks “What God should strike down his heavenly ordained regent?” to which Jefferson replies “The true one.” While this story has obviously never been verified it would show just how much he loathed the clergy.
This is not to say that Jefferson was the sole influencer of the French people. Writers such as Voltaire, Robespierre and Jacques Pierre Brissot, all added fuel to the fire that was slowly stoking inside the powder keg that was France. In time this would prove to have consequences for all of Europe.
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Ok so this is the next installment. I'm going to be tracing what happened to the Founding Fathers (whom I haven't killed) and what would happen if they got to spread their ideas more directly in some nations. It is going to be an interesting thought experiment as I hope to show.
So other than the defeat of the First American Rebellion no major historical changes yet but I assure you they will be coming. For now bear with me as I explore the idea meshing. I promise the next installment will be more exciting!
As usual comments and criticism is welcome and encouraged.
So no Spainish Involvement.
Spain keeps Cuba, New Orleans and all land West of the Mississippi.
Britian keeps all Land East of the Mississippi, including East and West Florida.
No runway Slaves in Spainish NFlorida to act as a Craft Base for the Semimoles and other Florida Indians. [Till Jackson Burned out the Towns & Forts].
Maybe the Runaways continue to Central/South Florida, out of the reach of the Slave Chasers.
Anyway Florida History will be lots different.
OTOH whe have 20.000 whites living with the 5 Civililized Tribes in the SE.
As these get pushed across the Mississippi, They will act as a Craft base [Blacksmith, Cooper, Gunsmith, etc.] for the Ozark Indians.
Again Major butterflies.
Spain keeps Cuba, New Orleans and all land West of the Mississippi.
Britian keeps all Land East of the Mississippi, including East and West Florida.
No runway Slaves in Spainish NFlorida to act as a Craft Base for the Semimoles and other Florida Indians. [Till Jackson Burned out the Towns & Forts].
Maybe the Runaways continue to Central/South Florida, out of the reach of the Slave Chasers.
Anyway Florida History will be lots different.
OTOH whe have 20.000 whites living with the 5 Civililized Tribes in the SE.
As these get pushed across the Mississippi, They will act as a Craft base [Blacksmith, Cooper, Gunsmith, etc.] for the Ozark Indians.
Again Major butterflies.
Perhaps Arnold and his men will attempt to incite a slave rebellion in the south to hurt the british? After all this group is made up of staunch republican diehards who might support a broad interpretation of the "All men are created equal..." clause in the decleration of independence. And even if they are leery of challenging slavery, they might do so out of desperation/necessity. After all, I doubt there's much room for plantation agriculture in the backwoods and therefore they wouldn't really have anything to lose by doing this.
Thanks for the input! You actually just helped solve a major quandry for me here!
Thomas Jefferson as a French Radical? 
WOW! So much like his character in OTL, but just much more extreme. But wow.
WOW! So much like his character in OTL, but just much more extreme. But wow.Thomas Jefferson as a French Radical?
Thanks
thats actually one of things I had envisioned writing this TL. There are a few others that will hopefully make themselves apparent as the TL progresses.Chapter 4: Revolution, Revolution, and of course, Revolution
Historians now look back and consider the Decade of Rebellion (1789-1799) to be something of an inevitability in history. Nothing is inevitable however but it seems the French revolution was. In 1789 France was a country on the brink of revolution. The people were starving, her economy was in ruins and the King was virtually powerless to do anything. His Queen “that Austrian woman” was highly unpopular with the masses and his ministers were completely powerless to relieve the nation’s financial woes. Thus the king was forced to call the Estates General. The Estates General then declared themselves the National Assembly and began clamouring for them to be recognized as the representatives of the people. Much trouble was caused by the Kings financial advisor Necker, who after writing an erroneous report of the nation’s finances was fired. This was perceived as a move against the National Assembly and coupled with the sense of desperation and anger broke out in full blown rebellion. This culminated in riots and angry mobs were incited to violence all around Paris. This culminated in the mobs storming of the Bastille and the violent beheading of the garrison commander as well as the butchering of the city’s mayor. This type of violence would grow around France as peasants armed themselves and formed militias attacking noblemen and clergy, contributing to a time known as the Great Fear.
In response to this growing unrest the National Assembly began to issue many decrees. They abolished feudalism and on August 26th 1789 published the revolutionary document, The Declaration of the Rights of Man. This document, partially based on the Articles of Confederation drafted by the failed American revolutionaries had a much more all egalitarian flavour. Thomas Jefferson and some fellow American expiates had been on hand to advise (and in some cases criticize) its principals. For instance makers of the Declaration pushed for the abolition of slavery, Jefferson and many other men shouted down such a proposal and the rights of women were also never properly addressed. It was a revolutionary document for its time (and indeed its wording has inspired many a Constitution today) for its points of equality and liberal rights.
This document and the National Assembly gained legitimacy after roughly several thousand women marched on the Palace at Versailles and brought the King back to Paris. There he would remain under the ‘protection’ of the Assembly and the National Guard. Thus did France become a constitutional monarchy.
Around Europe this was viewed with alarm. Great Britain, Prussia and Austria all eyed this growing revolutionary movement warily. However, no action could be taken so long as the king remained, at least theoretically, in power in France. In the American colonies news of this revolution began to excite members of the populace. In 1790 a number of clandestine Republican groups formed in Boston and Philadelphia and began plotting similar moves towards such democratic ideals.
Throughout France from 1790 and well into 1791 the social order of France was turned on its head. Many nobles increasingly began fleeing the violence in the countryside and emigrating to other countries. This was a problem for the National Assembly as these nobles inevitably took their wealth and began supporting counter-revolutionary movements from outside of France. Inside France factions within the National Assembly were emerging, radical left wing clubs as well as more conservative nobles were at odds with one another on how to run the nation and the course of action that could be taken.
Economically the nation was ripping itself to shreds. Heavily influenced by many American writers the ideas of capitalism were running rampant within the minds of the people and the Assembly opposed mercantilism and guilds that had been prevalent throughout France. Nobles desperate to hold on to any shred of power opposed this radical way of thinking while commoners and the bourgeois were thoroughly in favour of the practice of these new ideals. Attempts at starting capitalist enterprise around the country sprang up rapidly and tended to replace local guilds as the main producers as skilled workers left to take their chances in these new establishments. This lead to various street fights between the guilds and the capitalists as the economic situation only worsened.
In 1792 the Constitutional monarchy failed. The King who had attempted to flee was imprisoned and forced to swear loyalty to the Constitution and became little more than a figurehead. This outraged the monarchs of Europe who declared solidarity with the kings plight and demanded he have his full authority returned. If any harm befell him there would be severe consequences they threatened. Coupled with increasing paranoia in the French populace of foreign invasion and the general dislike of the king this did nothing to help Louis XVI’s position. As fears of his collaboration with foreign powers grew he was condemned to death and executed.
This immediately led to war between France and her neighbours. Austria and Prussia immediately declared war and marched on French territory. The National Assembly scrambled to assemble an army to fight these invaders. Thus did the revolutionary wars begin.
Across the sea in America the turbulent years of 1790-1792 were spend mostly at peace. There were many civil disturbances such as minor protests against the crown. London, terrified of French style action dispatched a further 16,000 troops to the Colonies. Raids by the Army of the Republic increased and in Ireland similar unrest began to erupt.
In 1793 events came to a head. Nearly simultaneously the Jacobins seized power in Paris and Republican insurgents launched an uprising in the Colonies. Both movements would be noted for their extreme brutality. In Paris Robespierre convened the Committee of Public Safety and began taking action against the revolutions enemies within and without. In America Republican insurgents seized control of towns and important cities such as Philadelphia and Richmond. In the West the Army of the Republic now some 8,000 strong but poorly armed and equipped marched into the Southern Colonies and began raising merry hell. The British were swift to react. The Northern Colonies and the Province of Quebec decided to stay neutral in the conflict. Thus was the revolution doomed from the start. The Republican insurgents had overplayed their hand by rebelling so soon. Not only was there little popular support outside Virginia and North Carolina but disastrously the various rebel groups had not coordinated on any large scale and did not operate directly with one another. They also adopted heavy handed measures against those whom they perceived as ‘enemies of the Republic’ humiliating them and stripping them naked before sending them marching towards loyalist towns to spread warnings. This only alienated many people from the rebels cause.
While the Southern Colonies and garrisons moved to fight the Army of the Republic, Northern British troops marched on resisting towns with a vengeance. Villages that supplied the rebels were burned to the ground and crops destroyed in rebel areas. Richmond was besieged and subject to intense bombardment day and night. A column of rebel militia attempting to relieve their brothers in Richmond was smashed by British Regulars in coordination with help from friendly units of local militia not wishing to see their homes destroyed by yet another war. There would be a few intense skirmishes around Philadelphia but no real stand up battles.
In the Southern Colonies slaves rose in rebellion against their masters and to the fury of many land holders the British commanders seemed particularly unconcerned. General Cornwallis declared he could only intervene if these rebellions directly aided the Army of the Republic, and while most uprisings were quickly quashed by the local militia approximately one thousand slaves escaped to bolster the Republicans. In the Battle of Boone’s Road the Army of the Republic scattered local militia forces in Georgia and moved on to win another battle against the British in the recently established Fort Hood. Cornwallis was almost exaggeratedly slow in responding to the threat presented by the Army of the Republic. Truthfully he barely considered them a threat. He was more concerned about the rebels gathering in Virginia and North Carolina rather than the ragtag army that was slowly crawling up the Appalachians. He knew he needed to quickly eliminate the rebels in the Northern states before decisively crushing Arnold’s ragtag force once and for all.
To that end he spent much of 1792-93 combating local insurgents and maintaining the siege of Richmond. Once he defeated the main rebel forces in the Battle of MacDonald’s Field where a force of some 6,000 Republicans was comprehensively defeated by 8,500 red coats. He then marched on Philadelphia which would fall after a harsh siege in February 1794. In April he met and decisively defeated Benedict Arnold’s forces just near the South Carolina border before they had a chance to link up with any remaining rebel forces. He pursued Arnold’s army and shattered it completely at the Battle of Fenn on April 9th. It was only through Arnold’s stunning leadership and sheer tenacity that he and fifteen hundred others managed to escape capture. Three thousand rebels were captured and another nine hundred were killed. Only then did Cornwallis turn his attention to finally breaking the Siege of Richmond. The city would fall on January 4th 1795 when the rebels ran out of food and were forced to surrender the city.
Just as one rebellion ended another began. In 1798 the United Ireland movement kicked off an uprising and occupied Dublin and evicted the British from many cities. The British were forced to call Cornwallis and 9,000 troops from America to deal with this crisis. Though the rebellion did not last long it was taking troops from America that simply could not be spared.
In France Robespierre’s Committee was in full until swing until 1794. Through which time an estimated 16,000 were guillotined and perhaps 40,000 more arbitrarily put to death. The most famous victim of this was Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was long critical of any sort of central government or planning and when Robespierre seized power he publically denounced the Committee as a sham. He was arrested in December 1793 and executed January 1794 with Robespierre himself pulling the guillotine lever. He addressed a silent crowd with the words “Long live Liberty and long live this glorious revolution”. His body was buried just outside Paris by admirers and a plaque rests on the spot he was executed. It has been thought that Robespierre long wished to take action against his political rival and simply used this as an excuse to silence him. This excuse backfired as the Committee’s horrible efforts at running the country led to famine and Robespierre himself was arrested and guillotined on the 28th of July 1794.
This would pass into the time of the Directory in France. They moved to create a Republic in France and to open to economy to free enterprise. While this was a republic in name in practice the Directory tended to hoard power for themselves and support only enterprise important to them creating discontent among the populace. They moved to curb the power of the local militias by conscripting them into the army and sending them to the frontier.
The Directory would also oversee the growth of revolutionary France (albeit indirectly) into the Rhineland and the occupation of Belgium and the creation of the Batavian Republic. They soundly defeated the armies of the First Coalition at almost every turn and the rising star of the Republic, General Napoleon Bonaparte managed to successfully invade Italy and secure French interests there. Finally in 1797 the war of the First Coalition came to an end with the Treaty of Campo Formio securing French gains in the Lowlands and Italy while Britain remained belligerent.
It was the beginning of a long rivalry.
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Ok so here we have the latest installment. I hope it proves exciting enough for everyone and that people enjoy it.
Comments, criticism and suggestions are strongly encouraged here! Please chime in with any concerns or suggestions you have!
But most of all I hope you enjoy reading it
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Interesting but I have some thoughts.
First there are not nearly enough butterflies for me. The French Revolution is progressing far to much like OTL despite the fact that the American Revolution has failed. Also I doubt the French have based their Declaration of the Rights of Man on the U.S. constitution due to the U.S. Constitution never having been written in the TL. Did you mean the Declaration of Independence or Articles of Confederation? I do like the idea that Jefferson would have a falling out with the French revolutionaries. Also I think that the Netherlands would be far more attractive to American exiles than authoritarian and Catholic France and Spain. Concerning Arnold and the Army of the Republic, I highly doubt that any general would be able to keep hundreds much less thousands of men in the field for some many years after the revolution. America is a total wilderness at this point. I think the most likely course of action would be for those patriots who didn’t flee abroad to start their own separatist communities on the other side of the Appalachian Mountains.
Keep it up.
First there are not nearly enough butterflies for me. The French Revolution is progressing far to much like OTL despite the fact that the American Revolution has failed. Also I doubt the French have based their Declaration of the Rights of Man on the U.S. constitution due to the U.S. Constitution never having been written in the TL. Did you mean the Declaration of Independence or Articles of Confederation? I do like the idea that Jefferson would have a falling out with the French revolutionaries. Also I think that the Netherlands would be far more attractive to American exiles than authoritarian and Catholic France and Spain. Concerning Arnold and the Army of the Republic, I highly doubt that any general would be able to keep hundreds much less thousands of men in the field for some many years after the revolution. America is a total wilderness at this point. I think the most likely course of action would be for those patriots who didn’t flee abroad to start their own separatist communities on the other side of the Appalachian Mountains.
Keep it up.
Thanks for your input
As for the lack of butterflies, saldy I'm beggining to think that I should have skipped over a few parts from here and gone straight into the next installment to better get the feel for how this is going to progress. And I did mean that Articles of Confederation rather than the constitution thanks for catching that!
As for Arnold the men he is using come from settlements across the Appalachians whom he is trying to use to spur another revolution. I should have made that clearer there.
As for the lack of butterflies, saldy I'm beggining to think that I should have skipped over a few parts from here and gone straight into the next installment to better get the feel for how this is going to progress. And I did mean that Articles of Confederation rather than the constitution thanks for catching that!
As for Arnold the men he is using come from settlements across the Appalachians whom he is trying to use to spur another revolution. I should have made that clearer there.
I like it, but i do agree that the French Revolution should moving on a different course. Maybe you could have more nobles actually infighting one another, depending on how much support the people have as well.
A nice inauspicious end to Jefferson.
A nice inauspicious end to Jefferson.
Enjoying what I've read so far but I do have to kind of side with those who say that the French revolution would go differently. For a start bear in mind that much of the reason France was so flat broke leading up to 1789 was that they had paid so much into supporting the American Revolution. With a failed Revolution, far less debt and far less bankruptcy. That's not to say there won't be economic hardship - there probably would, and the King would likely be equally weak in his control of the situation. But one would presume that the start of the revolution would be pushed back even as much as half a decade or more, and most likely the flash point would thus be somewhat different. With a difference in time to this effect, you could see changes - for instance, Bonaparte might have faded into obscurity after several more years of no real action, or may have chosen to pursue a different path after a while; others may have died or nobodies arisen, etc. And perhaps with a somewhat richer France (not rich, just..."richer") there might be less need to invade Italy, which was after all nothing more than a money-spinning campaign by plundering the north of all its cultural legacies and selling them for coin?
And with the further introduction of a Jeffersonian faction (you never stated one but I'm assuming that was the intention) perhaps the Third Estate becomes yet more unstable when it managed to assume control of the National Assembly from the other two estates and the really quite vicious politicking of OTL (the Girondists, all the left-wing radicalism, etc) could perhaps lead to the Assembly actually being weaker overall, and factions less able to command a sizable majority in any debate. Alternatively, perhaps it might get stronger if one faction uses the presence of several more factions to actively dismantle an opponent and become stronger through stepping into a vacuum that never existed OTL.
The only other thing I would question is whether the Iroquois, back a few updates, would not be given some manner of protection. After all, you stated that they were leading figures in the hunting-down of Arnold's rebels. I can go for the idea of the disloyal Indian tribes being opened up for expansion, but strategically helpful or no, surely the Iroquois would be protected? After all, the British government was generally quite pro-Indian in such matters. Might we also see some manner of an American Congress being formed, or perhaps multiple regional congresses (as has been speculated about on this forum, I know)?
Anyway, just ideas to mull over. No obligation to agree with any of them, and certainly don't feel obliged to include them. This TL is your own, after all.
And with the further introduction of a Jeffersonian faction (you never stated one but I'm assuming that was the intention) perhaps the Third Estate becomes yet more unstable when it managed to assume control of the National Assembly from the other two estates and the really quite vicious politicking of OTL (the Girondists, all the left-wing radicalism, etc) could perhaps lead to the Assembly actually being weaker overall, and factions less able to command a sizable majority in any debate. Alternatively, perhaps it might get stronger if one faction uses the presence of several more factions to actively dismantle an opponent and become stronger through stepping into a vacuum that never existed OTL.
The only other thing I would question is whether the Iroquois, back a few updates, would not be given some manner of protection. After all, you stated that they were leading figures in the hunting-down of Arnold's rebels. I can go for the idea of the disloyal Indian tribes being opened up for expansion, but strategically helpful or no, surely the Iroquois would be protected? After all, the British government was generally quite pro-Indian in such matters. Might we also see some manner of an American Congress being formed, or perhaps multiple regional congresses (as has been speculated about on this forum, I know)?
Anyway, just ideas to mull over. No obligation to agree with any of them, and certainly don't feel obliged to include them. This TL is your own, after all.
Thanks for the comments on here everyone! Having read over some of my notes, and many of these helpful suggestions I'm most certainly making a few changes to this TL, and In order to do so I've decided to do a reboot of it. I'll most likely get around to posting it sometime next week with changes in store. I'm going to clarify a number of things a re-write a few ideas and statements.