Definitely off topic but is there a wider Armenian diaspora due to Rhomania's empire? A random thought.
An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
I broadly like the reforms, though I share some concern regarding state's capacity to direct economy. How will that turn out, well, it's a sliding scale, not "one good other bad". Both free market and state capitalism have successes and failures. Life of peasantry should definitely be better - it sort of reminds me of France in 19th century, by industrialization metrics falling behind (no huge industrial concerns) but still being very rich and prosperous (due to wealth of smallholdings).
I like the mention of credit unions sticking, good for Sophia's chance to win.
I like the mention of credit unions sticking, good for Sophia's chance to win.
The reforms mentioned are not a revolution but they will change the Roman society, albeit slowly. Maybe that's for the best, a gradual change is less prone to failure than a rapid one.
I think generally there are a lot of Armenians in administrative positions throughout the empire, so they are fairly widespread, but I think most of the population is still in greater armenia by OTL definition of that region. I wouldn't imagine much of an international diaspora since Rhomania has been a net destination for immigrants in the last century or so and Rhomania's colonial holdings aren't in heavily depopulated areas like the Americas which encourage heavy migration.
I can see the multicultural nature of the empire being the basis for civic Rhomanian nationalism.
That seems to be the direction this is heading. In a somewhat inverted version of OTL colonialism I can see Rhomanian nationalism being bolstered by their overseas holdings through a process of inclusion rather than exclusion. The idea that "we are all Romans" has seeds in the inclusion of Armenians, Turks, and Slavic immigrants, the inclusion of Malays, Sri Lankans, and more could solidify it.
Maybe..but we must remember In otl the by the 10th century the concept a Roman was much closer to what i would call a cultural nationalism. I.E someone who eats,behaves,acts and follows orthodox Christianity was a roman...
For example when Bulgaria was conquered, the Bulgarians where not considered to be romans but barbarians..even after decades of roman occupation.
In my humble opinion the empire will not be a multicultural society..but an multi-ethnic one with a common culture like most European countries today
That being said I wonder what racism will look like in Rhomania.
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
We already have a taste of that with their cultural civilization level outlook where they view certain cultures as higher than others based on how civilized they are, with cultures like the Romans, Persians, Chinese, Japanese, Ethiopians, and Vijayanagarans/Indians all having high marks for totai objective reasons.
So your skin color won't matter, but the language you speak and culture you present will.
It sounds good until you realize the result is going to be shaming people's cultural history. "Your food is trash. Your clothes are ridiculous. And that mongrel tongue sounds horrid. But it's ok. You can be civilized just leave everything your ancestors passed to you behind and be like us."
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
Not disagreeing at all, just pointing out that B444 has Rhome maintaining cultural chauvinism for their chief form of bigotry rather than an ethnic/racial based one from OTL/ITTL western Europe. So bigotry more like modern China or India rather than USA.
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I meant that it sounds good because it's distinctly not racism. It doesn't matter what your ethnic background is, but how you act, dress, talk, and eat certainly does. On the surface there's a positive in that anyone can be accepted within Rhoman society, but it's at the cost of cultural diversity and is going to lead to a good amount of xenophobia.
Roman Economics: I do want to stress that this topic is very much a work in progress, on both a Watsonian AND Doylist level. With all of Sophia’s reforms, not just these, the historical importance rests not on the specifics, but in the precedents and mindsets they establish. With that in mind, I think the key importance here is that the medieval concept of a just profit survives here in Rhomania (rather than going out the window as in OTL Europe; the concept is not an exclusively Byzantine idea) and that the government, as part of its duty to provide justice, has a mandate to provide justice in the marketplace. What exactly this entails is unclear, and details can vary substantially, but it exists.
As for long-term implications, I can think of several, some good and bad. (Please note that the following is often a case of me thinking out loud, and that none of this is set in stone and can change; see my first sentence on this topic.)
I think this will hamper capital accumulation to a degree, although the practice of partible inheritance (taken from OTL: see Contexts of Roman Society, Part 5-3: Innovations in Agriculture plus endnotes) is likely, in my opinion, a much bigger factor in this. After all, requiring a 25% cap on profit plus capping interest rates is a restriction, but it’s a far cry from the USSR. @Stark mentions 19th century France, which I think is a good model of how this will look down the road. There’ll probably be a lot of small and medium-sized enterprises, but larger enterprises might be dependent on government to provide some of the funding to get going. Indicative planning will probably be popular in government circles, but this is different from mandatory planning. (The parallels with OTL France seem to be getting stronger the more I think about this, but this isn’t conscious; my knowledge of French economic history is limited.)
This system is also subject to change and probably over time will become more byzantine (heh). The rate of just profits could be raised on luxury items, while kept lower on essentials such as groceries and rent. Also, the Romans already have a longstanding pre-POD mindset of ‘greater risk justifies greater profit’, as shown in their varying levels of what the maximum a just interest rate on a loan can be, with riskier loans getting higher interest rates. So, it’s possible that a higher just profit rate would be allowed on start-ups to encourage investors with lower rates being enforced only if said company gets established at a certain size. The same concept would also apply to stock speculation. The possibility of great profits is allowed, because it is coupled with the possibility of great loss, with the speculator on the foot for either.
The definition of what exactly constitutes profit could also be tweaked. One example I can think of is that excess profit that is then turned around and invested in improving production methods, such as upgrading plant and tools, doesn’t count toward the just profit level. (And giving corporate executives big bonuses DOES NOT count as ‘improving production methods.) This is one way I’m thinking that Roman products can get a modern reputation of being ‘expensive but very high-quality’, because Roman manufacturing processes might be smaller in scale than elsewhere but are often on the cutting-edge technologically.
There are probably other examples I’m not thinking of, but the possibility for evolution with more flexible and nuanced approaches are available as this develops.
Armenian Diaspora: I think it would be on a smaller scale compared to OTL, but I feel that is more of a comment on OTL, considering its extent. There were Armenian merchants and moneylenders in Bengal when the British were starting to take the place over. There would still be some, since some of it is pre-POD and market opportunities would still attract others. (Note Iskandar’s recent successful efforts to lure Armenian immigrants to Persia.)
Roman racism: As noted, Roman bigotry falls into the ‘civilizationist’ mentality I’ve described, to which I gave a different and unique name because racism doesn’t feel accurate. It is different from OTL racism, but that doesn’t make it good; the moral issues have already been pointed out by respondents. On a Doylist level I find it interesting because it’s creating a society that where skin color is on a par with hair or eye color in terms of social importance, but to me still feels realistic in a way that a truly-no-prejudice society just wouldn’t, even though it’d be really nice to have one.
I’d describe the Roman mentality as a more demanding variant of ‘becoming Roman’ as it was in classical antiquity. The religious component is what makes it more demanding now in 1660 as opposed to 160. Over time, that religious component will fade in importance just as OTL European culture has secularized despite its strong Christian antecedents and elements, but ‘being Roman’ will still require ‘acting Roman’, at least in public. @emperor joe mentioned a multi-ethnic society with a common culture; this is the result I’m picturing.
As for long-term implications, I can think of several, some good and bad. (Please note that the following is often a case of me thinking out loud, and that none of this is set in stone and can change; see my first sentence on this topic.)
I think this will hamper capital accumulation to a degree, although the practice of partible inheritance (taken from OTL: see Contexts of Roman Society, Part 5-3: Innovations in Agriculture plus endnotes) is likely, in my opinion, a much bigger factor in this. After all, requiring a 25% cap on profit plus capping interest rates is a restriction, but it’s a far cry from the USSR. @Stark mentions 19th century France, which I think is a good model of how this will look down the road. There’ll probably be a lot of small and medium-sized enterprises, but larger enterprises might be dependent on government to provide some of the funding to get going. Indicative planning will probably be popular in government circles, but this is different from mandatory planning. (The parallels with OTL France seem to be getting stronger the more I think about this, but this isn’t conscious; my knowledge of French economic history is limited.)
This system is also subject to change and probably over time will become more byzantine (heh). The rate of just profits could be raised on luxury items, while kept lower on essentials such as groceries and rent. Also, the Romans already have a longstanding pre-POD mindset of ‘greater risk justifies greater profit’, as shown in their varying levels of what the maximum a just interest rate on a loan can be, with riskier loans getting higher interest rates. So, it’s possible that a higher just profit rate would be allowed on start-ups to encourage investors with lower rates being enforced only if said company gets established at a certain size. The same concept would also apply to stock speculation. The possibility of great profits is allowed, because it is coupled with the possibility of great loss, with the speculator on the foot for either.
The definition of what exactly constitutes profit could also be tweaked. One example I can think of is that excess profit that is then turned around and invested in improving production methods, such as upgrading plant and tools, doesn’t count toward the just profit level. (And giving corporate executives big bonuses DOES NOT count as ‘improving production methods.) This is one way I’m thinking that Roman products can get a modern reputation of being ‘expensive but very high-quality’, because Roman manufacturing processes might be smaller in scale than elsewhere but are often on the cutting-edge technologically.
There are probably other examples I’m not thinking of, but the possibility for evolution with more flexible and nuanced approaches are available as this develops.
Armenian Diaspora: I think it would be on a smaller scale compared to OTL, but I feel that is more of a comment on OTL, considering its extent. There were Armenian merchants and moneylenders in Bengal when the British were starting to take the place over. There would still be some, since some of it is pre-POD and market opportunities would still attract others. (Note Iskandar’s recent successful efforts to lure Armenian immigrants to Persia.)
Roman racism: As noted, Roman bigotry falls into the ‘civilizationist’ mentality I’ve described, to which I gave a different and unique name because racism doesn’t feel accurate. It is different from OTL racism, but that doesn’t make it good; the moral issues have already been pointed out by respondents. On a Doylist level I find it interesting because it’s creating a society that where skin color is on a par with hair or eye color in terms of social importance, but to me still feels realistic in a way that a truly-no-prejudice society just wouldn’t, even though it’d be really nice to have one.
I’d describe the Roman mentality as a more demanding variant of ‘becoming Roman’ as it was in classical antiquity. The religious component is what makes it more demanding now in 1660 as opposed to 160. Over time, that religious component will fade in importance just as OTL European culture has secularized despite its strong Christian antecedents and elements, but ‘being Roman’ will still require ‘acting Roman’, at least in public. @emperor joe mentioned a multi-ethnic society with a common culture; this is the result I’m picturing.
Doubt it, I don't think they mind minority retaining their language as long as they become Romans and accept Roman laws. It's a multil ethnic empire after all for thousand years of it's existence. Learning the main language is necessary if these minority languages want to survive.
Minority languages will survive diminished it may be it's simply the way it is.
Rhomania's General Crisis, Part 17.4: Sustaining the War, Part 5
I don't know; I haven't given much thought to this. There are lots of different ways this could go over the next few centuries; we'll see what develops organically.
Rhomania’s General Crisis, Part 17.4-Sustaining the War, Part 5:
These economic measures are not the only item on the agenda. Herakleios III is still publicly recognized as the legitimate Emperor and no one directly challenges the principle of de facto hereditary autocracy. However, having a weak-willed autocrat being bent by a clique of ambitious and unscrupulous favorites is clearly not a good system.
Sophia has another reason for being interested in curbing the powers, and thereby the responsibilities, of the Imperial office. She is too young to remember her grandfather, but she has been told stories about him by her mother and others, and she also witnessed the strains on Athena before her untimely death. She wants to avoid such a fate herself. Yet just sitting back and doing nothing, much like Herakleios III, feels unethical and as her husband’s example shows, potentially hazardous.
The ideal would be a system that can be directed by a skillful autocrat, but does not require said autocrat to operate effectively, and capable of curbing a decidedly-not-skillful autocrat. Expanding the responsibilities of the Lower Council beyond an advisory capacity is not seriously considered by anyone. (Historically minded officials point out that one time the mob chose Imperial leadership, the result was the Angelos dynasty.) Even the most diplomatically minded courtiers would agree with the most ardent war hawks that the world is a hazardous place; the leadership of the Empire must be educated and trained for the task.
The result is a series of measures designed to strengthen the Imperial Council, although not so much that it can override an Autocrat. With the quasi-exception of the Patriarch of Constantinople, all the members of the Imperial Council serve at Imperial pleasure, but any appointments within their departments must now be approved by the appropriate senior official. The Megas Domestikos is chosen by the Emperor but the tagma strategoi are chosen by him; by law, the Emperor cannot skip over the senior official. The idea is that the Emperor can still retain control of officialdom but sweeping changes in administration to favor a ruling clique would be harder to arrange.
Another measure is a decree that states that any decree signed by all members of the Council has the same weight in law of a decree with an Imperial signature. This is so that the participation of the Emperor is not necessary for the Council to function fully as the Imperial government. Related to this is another measure that states that all official issues of the Imperial budget, even with the Imperial signature, require council signatures as well to be considered valid.
None of these measures are particularly innovative; the mindsets being them are still rather conservative. The aim is to reform the autocracy and render it less open to abuse, but not to significantly move away from that model. These actions, like that of the early-model Lower Council, are more significant in the long-run as precedents rather than for what they represent on their own merits.
As 1662 turns into 1663, the mood in Thessaloniki is grim. A harsh winter again has descended on the city, with parts of the upper city so buried in snow it takes days to shovel them out and restore access. This hardly helps the atmosphere. Domestikos Pirokolos remarks that he feels they are reprising the civil war between Michael the Amorian and Thomas the Slav, and their side is playing the role of Thomas, who lost.
A brief boost in morale comes in April with the largest-profile mid-war defection, that of the Andreas Niketas. The Andreas Niketas is the oldest three-decker in the Roman fleet and arguably the first of its type in the world. That shows in the design. The number of guns had to be reduced and others replaced with lighter calibers, shrinking its broadside throw-weight by a fifth, to make desperately needed improvements to seaworthiness. Nevertheless, it is still a powerful warship, and Sophia’s loyalists make much of the defection, Doux Kanaris taking it as his flagship. But this is a one-off event due to personal foibles of the ship’s command, not emblematic of a wider shift in loyalty in the Roman navy.
Sophia and her supporters want something with far more weight. And so, on May 29, 1663, she is crowned. She has already had a coronation as Empress, but this is different. Here, now, she is crowned by the Metropolitan of Thessaloniki, in the Cathedral of St. Demetrios, as Basileus, as Emperor of the Romans. Outside the city, she is acclaimed by the gathered throngs of commoners and by army units and is raised on a shield by guard units as the assembly, which numbers in the tens of thousands, shouts out its loyalty.
New coins are minted. Herakleios III is still recognized as an Emperor but the new coins show both Sophia and Herakleios on the obverse, both with the imperial aura and of equal size. The reverse shows a cross plus the winged goddess Nike. The reverse image is unusual with its pagan symbolism but is a reference to some rare coinage issues of Andreas Niketas, struck to commemorate his victories over Venice and over the Crusaders.
In Constantinople, news of this is belittled as a desperate grab for legitimacy. Sophia’s descent from Demetrios III Sideros means nothing; even if Herakleios III was actually incapacitated, which his regular processions through the city show that he is not (although his mistress Anastasia is ubiquitously at his side), Sophia would not be his heir.
That would be Prince Demetrios the Younger. Little has been heard or known about him since he left the Empire but, in the spring of 1663, the Tourmarches play up reports that he is somewhere in northern India, defeating Sikhs and Gurkhas. This makes it clear that he is far away and that rightful sovereignty rests with Herakleios III. Exactly what these reports mean though is unclear to most in Constantinople, where information on northern India is sparse. (Southern India, due to longer contacts with Vijayanagar, is better understood.) As one wit popularly puts it, a Sikh is what one does to your lover, while a Gurkha is what one does to her husband.
* * *
The War Room, White Palace, Constantinople, June 1, 1663:
Andronikos Gyranos looked at the report in front of him, repressing a sigh. His desk, set in a corner of the chamber, was covered in similar material. Russian shipments, primarily grain but also metals, were vital components of his logistics network, but Russian merchants were nervous ever since the anti-Latin attacks. Mobs were rarely good for warehouse inventories. Which meant that while they were still willing to operate, the Russians were more likely to demand payment up front, and in bullion, and with certain guarantees of protection… All of which made everything take longer than it should.
In the center of the chamber was the massive Map Table, which showed a detailed map of the Imperial heartland and surrounding territories. Flags of various colors and markings indicated known and suspected position of forces friendly, hostile, and neutral. Surrounding it were some smaller tables that had more detailed maps of high-importance locations.
He usually preferred working in his office, which was private and quiet, although it was less efficient for getting things done quickly. But that wasn’t why he was down here in ‘the Pit’. Quiet wasn’t something he wanted right now; quiet made it too easy to think, and that was something he wished to avoid.
The main door opened and in walked his wife Irene. She was as tall as the average man normally, but the platform shoes she was currently wearing put her above everyone in the chamber, although if Little Stavros wasn’t sick with an ague, he’d still win that contest. Even so, she glided across the chamber as she strode toward him. Her hair was down, the black streaked with silver-gray. That was an indicator it’d been a while she had last dyed it but Andronikos preferred this look.
“Clear the room and secure it,” she said loudly. “I have private business with the Director.” She did not have the authority to do that. Everyone obeyed her anyway.
After everyone else had left the room, she looked at him. “You’ve been avoiding me.”
“Yes, I have.”
“It’s a stupid reason.”
“I’m a stupid man.”
“Sometimes, yes, you are.” She paused. “Both sides in this war aren’t willing to do all that is necessary, but the other side is willing to do more. But we’re on the wrong side. We can’t defect. If we fail, and we’re already on notice, we’ll be killed here. And if we succeed, they’ll just kill us there, because Sideroi don’t do forgiveness. So really our only good chance of survival is based on making the more wrong side in this stupid civil war win. Does that sum up our predicament?”
“Yes, it does.”
“And how does avoiding me help improve that? I make you happy, so all that does is make you unhappy. Punishing yourself won’t help.”
“I know. Like I said, it’s a stupid reason.”
“At least you admit it. But it stops now.” She sat down on a corner of the nearest map table to his desk.
“I’ve got a couple of more inventories to assess, so I can be home in an hour and a half.”
She cocked her head slightly. “Yeah, I don’t feel like waiting. A woman has needs and they haven’t been met lately. I’m currently sitting on…” She shifted a bit so she could read the map under her. “…Pannonia. Seems a good a place as any.”
“Lucky Pannonia,” Andronikos replied. “I’m jealous.”
“I knew you’d be. So how about it?”
“Here? Now?”
“Why not? Do you really think in all this madness and stupidity, the threat of death in case of misstep, that it matters, that you truly care?”
Andronikos thought for a moment and then answered. “As usual, muffin, you’re absolutely right.”
The War Room stayed cleared and secured.
Good update, although I think Irene is overly pessimistic. If they can defect in the near future, I think Sophia would be smart enough to jump on the propaganda value and treat them well, so as to not discourage future defections. The think is they need to defect sooner rather than later, to increase the propaganda/prestige value of their defection.
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