What are your most bizarre ideas for a world in which Christianity fails?

[Hassungṙengjang]

It doesn’t exactly matter to me how, but let’s just say Christianity fails at some point after Constantine. I’m brainstorming ideas for a book I want to write, and it’ll be set in approximately 2012 in an alternate timeline where this would be the case. I’m open to just about anything at the moment, really. I’m in the very early stages of world building. Ideas off the top of my head would be:


1. Iranian colonization of Madagascar, Australia, and East Africa.
2. A surviving Vandal Kingdom in North Africa.
3. Romance-speaking Britain.
4. Alan-Saxon Gaul.
5. Frankish Spain.
6. Vasconic Royal Dynasty in Ireland.
7. African Romance Canarian Kingdom that colonized South Africa and perhaps also Brazil.
8. Turkified Korea.
9. Japanese colonization of Western North America.

Again, I don’t care how crazy it is, I want to hear it 😝

 

[Augenis]

I currently have one off-site where Christianity falling was one of the things that happened as a result of the POD. Ended with Hypsistarian Balto-Slavic steppe nomads.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

I currently have one off-site where Christianity falling was one of the things that happened as a result of the POD. Ended with Hypsistarian Balto-Slavic steppe nomads.

I’ve always found it rather odd that the Slavs didn’t take up the steppe lifestyle but the Goths did? At least for a bit…

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

It doesn’t exactly matter to me how, but let’s just say Christianity fails at some point after Constantine. I’m brainstorming ideas for a book I want to write, and it’ll be set in approximately 2012 in an alternate timeline where this would be the case. I’m open to just about anything at the moment, really. I’m in the very early stages of world building. Ideas off the top of my head would be:


1. Iranian colonization of Madagascar, Australia, and East Africa.
2. A surviving Vandal Kingdom in North Africa.
3. Romance-speaking Britain.
4. Alan-Saxon Gaul.
5. Frankish Spain.
6. Vasconic Royal Dynasty in Ireland.
7. African Romance Canarian Kingdom that colonized South Africa and perhaps also Brazil.
8. Turkified Korea.
9. Japanese colonization of Western North America.

Again, I don’t care how crazy it is, I want to hear it 😝

https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/vv9jhy

- "Great Lechia" conspiracy theory actually being true.

I’ve always found it rather odd that the Slavs didn’t take up the steppe lifestyle but the Goths did? At least for a bit…

Some of Slavic tribes lived near the steppe - Ulichi and Tivertsi but Avars, Bulgars and Pechenegs stopped them from adopting full-on steppe lifestyle.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

2. A surviving Vandal Kingdom in North Africa.

I don't think Christianity has much of an effect on that, sooner or later there will be a ERE who will try to reconquer the Roman Empire and the Vandal Kingdom was in a state of decline, as seen by the fact that only 15k troops managed to take to completely destroy extremely fast.
As for the rest of your points, I don't see a realistic TL where they could happen.

 

[Arkenfolm]

If Christianity fails after Constantine, you pretty much need a POD where Emperor Julian is both more successful at restoring the traditional Roman faith AND where you have a great "counter Rome", which in the context of 5th century Europe can only be the Hunnic state espoused by Attila which proclaimed itself the foremost enemy of Rome and allied with a great number of Germanic tribes to make his own empire. He established himself on such clear legitimacy that he entered into Germanic mythology. If we imagine that Attila or his successors (who TTL either quickly fight their civil war or don't have it at all) meet with influential Neoplatonic scholars than they might begin to formulate a new religious system to counteract Christianity and whatever traditional Roman cults remain.

The Korea and Japan things are probably separate PODs but honestly they can probably fall into "quirks of history" at that point.

As for the rest of your points, I don't see a realistic TL where they could happen.

1, 7, 8, 9 aren't particularly unrealistic by any standard if your POD is the 4th century AD. I mean 1 and 8 are kinda OTL since there were (Muslim) Persians in East Africa and Madagascar who left a legacy in terms of religion and culture and most of the northeastern part of Korea was considered very uncivilised and for many centuries was a military frontier with extensive Jurchen settlement. And not even a loyal military frontier at times given the prominent role of the local general Hong Bok-wan in inviting the Mongols to Korea.

Hell, I don't even think the end of the Vandals is inevitable. If they ally well with the Berbers and dissolve themselves into their culture then they can still win. Especially if they build a navy to interdict supplies. A century after the Vandal Kingdom fell, the Berbers posed an enormous challenge to the Caliphate that took many years to subdue.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

I don't think Christianity has much of an effect on that, sooner or later there will be a ERE who will try to reconquer the Roman Empire and the Vandal Kingdom was in a state of decline, as seen by the fact that only 15k troops managed to take to completely destroy extremely fast.
As for the rest of your points, I don't see a realistic TL where they could happen.

What is the title of this thread? Please read it again. I said I wanted to hear people’s crazy ideas. Which ones I decide on and how I’m going to make them happen is another thread entirely.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/vv9jhy

- "Great Lechia" conspiracy theory actually being true.



Some of Slavic tribes lived near the steppe - Ulichi and Tivertsi but Avars, Bulgars and Pechenegs stopped them from adopting full-on steppe lifestyle.

I have never heard of this conspiracy theory 😂

I’m suddenly really into the idea of Slavic Steppe Nomads conquering India, though. Not sure why…

 

[Lalli]

I can't see Christianity failing or even going extinction anymore with 4th century POD. It was pretty big already. You are needing much earlier POD.

But what bizarre thing I could see happening:

- Neo-Pharaotic Egypt becoming great again and taking lot of North Africa and Middle East.
- Jewish Arabia.
- Surviving Meso-American religion altough it abandons human sacrifices and decide that animal sacrifices are enough for their gods.
- Maori Empire

 

[AkhenatenOrRamses]

If your work is to be set in 2012, then any number of butterflies could've occured by then to create virtually whatever geopolitical oddities you'd want.

You could have a revived Kemetic Egypt ruling the Levant and Middle East, a Frankish kingdom in Italy and Greece, Chinese dynasts in Persia or vice versa. Whatever you can think of really.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

I can't see Christianity failing or even going extinction anymore with 4th century POD. It was pretty big already. You are needing much earlier POD.

But what bizarre thing I could see happening:

- Neo-Pharaotic Egypt becoming great again and taking lot of North Africa and Middle East.
- Jewish Arabia.
- Surviving Meso-American religion altough it abandons human sacrifices and decide that animal sacrifices are enough for their gods.
- Maori Empire

I disagree. Christianity was still a minority religion. Removing it from power is more than doable even into the 5th century. You just need the right POD.

- Jewish Arabia? Boring.
- Surviving Meso-American religion? Definitely.
- Māori Empire? That could be interesting.

 

[Whiteshore]

I disagree. Christianity was still a minority religion. Removing it from power is more than doable even into the 5th century. You just need the right POD.

Especially as Indian Buddhism was at one point the largest religion in the subcontinent yet a combination of a Hindu revival which created modern Hinduism and waves of Islamic invaders were enough to wipe it out of the subcontinent except for Sri Lanka and enclaves in Nepal and Bengal.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

I have never heard of this conspiracy theory 😂

I’m suddenly really into the idea of Slavic Steppe Nomads conquering India, though. Not sure why…

Well, the second case would be repeat of what happened with Indo-Aryans and the indigenous people of India already .

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

If your work is to be set in 2012, then any number of butterflies could've occured by then to create virtually whatever geopolitical oddities you'd want.

You could have a revived Kemetic Egypt ruling the Levant and Middle East, a Frankish kingdom in Italy and Greece, Chinese dynasts in Persia or vice versa. Whatever you can think of really.

I rather like the idea of a syncretism of Egyptian religion with Hellenism and some form of Christianity.

 

[Tibi088]

What about a muslim conquest of Europe?
Constantinople falls in 718 (It also becomes the capital of the kalifate). The Frank Empire is taken int the mid / second half of the 8th century? The Kievan Rus adapts Islam, and so do the slavs in the balkans, the norse and the hungarians, finally all of Eastern Europe converts or is converted. Christianoty suvives in western Europe but becomes more and more of a minority.

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

What about a muslim conquest of Europe?
Constantinople falls in 718 (It also becomes the capital of the kalifate). The Frank Empire is taken int the mid / second half of the 8th century? The Kievan Rus adapts Islam, and so do the slavs in the balkans, the norse and the hungarians, finally all of Eastern Europe converts or is converted. Christianoty suvives in western Europe but becomes more and more of a minority.

The purpose of the story is for a modern American boy to explore an alternate timeline in which Paganism never died, so… absolutely not.

China turning Manichaean or some other form of Yahwist on the other hand could be very interesting. Some other ideas that just came to mind over lunch…

- Khmer Indonesia (at least as far as Java)
- Latin Steppe Nomads from Pannonia
- A hyper ascetic, Harkonnen-like syncretism of Christianity and Zoroastrianism that dominates the Arabian Peninsula
- Gaelic Vikings Settle the Saint Lawrence
- Caribbean Timucuan Empire
- Buddhist-Incan syncretic religion
- Socotran Sea Gypsies
- Latin conquest of the Western Sahara
- Magyar Anatolia

 

[sarahz]

It doesn’t exactly matter to me how, but let’s just say Christianity fails at some point after Constantine. I’m brainstorming ideas for a book I want to write, and it’ll be set in approximately 2012 in an alternate timeline where this would be the case. I’m open to just about anything at the moment, really. I’m in the very early stages of world building. Ideas off the top of my head would be:


1. Iranian colonization of Madagascar, Australia, and East Africa.
2. A surviving Vandal Kingdom in North Africa.
3. Romance-speaking Britain.
4. Alan-Saxon Gaul.
5. Frankish Spain.
6. Vasconic Royal Dynasty in Ireland.
7. African Romance Canarian Kingdom that colonized South Africa and perhaps also Brazil.
8. Turkified Korea.
9. Japanese colonization of Western North America.

Again, I don’t care how crazy it is, I want to hear it 😝

I suppose it depends whether you are defining the failure as the Nicene brand of Christianity as defined by the Council or all forms, including Gnosticism, Arianism etc. .

 

[Hassungṙengjang]

I suppose it depends whether you are defining the failure as the Nicene brand of Christianity as defined by the Council or all forms, including Gnosticism, Arianism etc. .

All forms. Caput. Gone. No longer part of the European conversation.

 

[Polish Eagle]

Depending on whether you consider Catharism Christian or some offshoot of the various dualistic/Buddhist-influenced religions that prevailed in the Middle East and steppe for a long time, one can postulate a Cathar-dominated society--possibly in Bulgaria?

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

"The Years of Rice and Salt" did exactly this and the POD is after Constantine. And its hard to get crazier than "The Years of Rice and Salt".

Historians estimated that about a third of the population of the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity by the time Constantine had died, in 337. Missionaries had already spread the religion beyond the Roman Empire, including to India. The religion had imperial support, and it took two decades for Rome to get another pagan empire.

So a "no Christianity" POD has to be pretty crazy in itself by 337. Something like nearly all the Europeans being killed off by plague. In fact you might as well use a more virulent plague of Justinian as a POD.

The best you can do is that one of Constantine's sons, maybe Crispus since almost nothing is known about him, wins the power struggle after 337 and turns out to be hostile to Christianity. This Emperor promotes some other mystery cult successfully, which essentially takes Christianity's place. Christianity itself survives, but as kind of a fringe religion like Mormonism.

Julian demonstrated that it was too late to do something like this by 360. And then you have to develop the alternative Christianity, which politically will serve much the same functions as Christianity. The social and religious influence will be different.