The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

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Terran Allias

Terran Allias

Tbh I feel like actual optimism with the PALF is rare for some weird reason. Like if Germany can somehow get on the road to unfucking itself, is it really that hard to imagine a timeline where Cameroon actually succeeds and creates a powerful Pan African bloc that can last at least for about a century because entropy is a bitch like that?

Also people that are basically "the Cameroon people are accepting Japanese money, that's why like they deserve to be conquered and oppressed by the French." Call me a wokie, but I also can't help but feel they have not good subconscious thoughts about Africa and it's people.
 
Impirius

Impirius

Earthallias said:
Like if Germany can somehow get on the road to unfucking itself, is it really that hard to imagine a timeline where Cameroon actually succeeds and creates a powerful Pan African bloc that can last at least for about a century because entropy is a bitch like that?
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I have no problem with that.
I have a problem with the devs not taking seriusly the bad side of tryng to do that.
The Italy comparison especialy is so moronic for development that i have to make it clear.
 
Terran Allias

Terran Allias

Impirius said:
The Italy comparison especialy is so moronic for development that i have to make it clear.
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Maybe if we rabble enough they can self reflect on what that means and course correct. I don't know why it's Cameroon instead of Nigeria, but I will say it's more like after uniting under a socialist government, Italy decides to form a communist Roman Empire.
 
Whiteshore

Whiteshore

Earthallias said:
Maybe if we rabble enough they can self reflect on what that means and course correct. I don't know why it's Cameroon instead of Nigeria, but I will say it's more like after uniting under a socialist government, Italy decides to form a communist Roman Empire.
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IIRC, it is a situation where the ruling party's powerbase was initially in Cameroon and the whole place is being relabelled the West African Union anyways.
 

chankljp

Donor
Earthallias said:
Tbh I feel like actual optimism with the PALF is rare for some weird reason. Like if Germany can somehow get on the road to unfucking itself, is it really that hard to imagine a timeline where Cameroon actually succeeds and creates a powerful Pan African bloc that can last at least for about a century because entropy is a bitch like that?

Also people that are basically "the Cameroon people are accepting Japanese money, that's why like they deserve to be conquered and oppressed by the French." Call me a wokie, but I also can't help but feel they have not good subconscious thoughts about Africa and it's people.
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The issue that people have with the PALF isn’t because they think the people of Camaroon ‘deserves’ to be conquered and oppressed…. But because they are using their Pan-Africanist ideology to justify conquering and oppressing other Africans. The same way that Imperial Japan did with a good chunk of East and Southeast Asia during WW2.

In fact, the entire situation in West Africa as it stands now is more or less an echo of the Pacific Theater in WW2: You have the WAA being the stand in forNationalist China; The admittedly corrupt local government that are nonetheless trying to defend their nation. The FMA being the European and American colonial powers with their concessions, colonies, and territories; Proclaiming their ‘civilizing mission’ and standing for liberal democracy while hypocritically opposing and exploiting locals for their own self-interests. And finally, the PALF being the Imperial Japan stand-in; With their ‘Africa for Africans’ thing, while seeking to, for the lack of a better term, ‘Liberate the shit out of anyone that object for their own good’… And that is only IF they actually try to uphold their self-proclaimed ideals, instead of doing the same thing as Japan is doing with the Co-Prosperity Sphere.

It is totally legitimate for the devs to take a ‘There is no good outcome. It is all dark grey vs. dark grey at best’ approach to things… But for a leading dev to come out and paint the PALF as what sounds like the objectively good guys, adding in statements that sound an awful lot like OTL Putin/CCP talking points such as ‘You are nothing but an artifical colonial construct, hence it is totally justified for me to invade you’, and ‘What is wrong with being a one-party dominant state? Of course no opposition and separatist parties will be allowed!’, rubs people the wrong way.
 

Twiggierjet

chankljp said:
But for a leading dev to come out and paint the PALF as what sounds like the objectively good guys, adding in statements that sound an awful lot like OTL Putin/CCP talking points such as ‘You are nothing but an artifical colonial construct, hence it is totally justified for me to invade you’, and ‘What is wrong with being a one-party dominant state? Of course no opposition and separatist parties will be allowed!’, rubs people the wrong way.
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Wait, when did that happen?
 

boredviewer1234

In defence of the people backing the PALF, the Africa as some stand for Indochina distorts it what with the South African war being a Vietnam parallel.

By that according to many people the PALF will eventually turn on the Japanese backers because they hate each other akin to Vietnam and China once they won war, so once the OFN and the WAA are gone. So the best ending is a total PALF victory while any other victory is just prolonging the suffering of the region so the utilitarian move is to hope for a PALF victory.

However I think that vastly ignores the situation of TNO, the PATK would sooner shoot or enslave the PALF than welcome let them join their camp while the bridge to the OFN is burnt so I think the PALF's dependency on Japan would only increase over time. Well that and people ignore what happened once South Vietnam was conquered in Asia.

That, and I think their mutual interests will only expand, by that the PALF should been as a major threat by the Spanish colonies and Algeria as well as Italy plus continued efforts to sabotage the PALF by the OFN as well as the PAKT. For example Pan Arab victory could mean Egypt/Sudan are united and sharing a border with the African Union which given they are supported by Nazi Germany a near automatic enemy given the history of horrors they done to West Africa as well as a convenient enemy. If Africa's Yugoslavia is to survive having a enemy to rally around the flag could be very useful.

That said yeah it should be read and seen as much closer to the history of the pacific theatre both in and out universe.


Now, while I agree the unification of Italy may not have been the best example to have to have been used, but I think that's always been a aspect of anti colonialism. The Republic of India used force to incorporate some of the princely states seeing them as nothing more than artificial colonial constructs called it the political integration of India and most of the world saw that as legitimate.

Then again everyone always tries to see their situation as the exception like with Portugal and Luso tropicalism so a subjective tone for the PALF would be best.
 
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chankljp

Donor

chankljp

Donor
Impirius said:
Not just that, other parties can exist with restrictions like in China or GDR of the past.
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One thing I love pointing out to people is that technically, North Korea is not a one-party dictatorship. There is even a 'right-wing opposition' in the country in the form of a social democratic party with seats in the People's Assembly!

But unless you are a tankie, no one is going to seriously claim the DPRK is a multiparty democracy, or 'not a dictatorship'.
 

boredviewer1234

chankljp said:
One thing I love pointing out to people is that technically, North Korea is not a one-party dictatorship. There is even a 'right-wing opposition' in the country in the form of a social democratic party with seats in the People's Assembly!

But unless you are a tankie, no one is going to seriously claim the DPRK is a multiparty democracy, or 'not a dictatorship'.
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Maybe they are going for a Mexico vibe? As in the Institutional Revolutionary Party dominated Mexico for decades and existed for the few decades as a way for the winners of the revolution to govern the state and share power without a civil war.

That said yeah, would call it a one state dictatorship, with a widow dressing.
 

xie323

Whiteshore said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TNOmod/comments/1beqlh0
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I don't really agree with Petlin or Werbell.

Werbell actually does legitimately good things in his better paths and if we list him we can list ANYONE with a bad path like "pre-rework Sablin" but whom can also be really wholesome.

Petlin is a legitimate redemption option. He was literally picked as a redemption option for Magadan because he is a literal blank slate, we do not know anything about him or his personality except "he was in the RFP and worked as a filmmaker", so there is more viability for a redemption route because you aren't whitewashing anyone with a record of lying or atrocities under their belt. Also it is hypocritical how Petlin is here because of his OTL "sins" that we don't even know of because he left literally no historical record but not Yeltsin since you can easily make the same argument that "TNO whitewashes Yeltsin" given that he did infinitely worse--brazenly subverted democratic means, destroyed his own country and paved the way for Putin.

I can see the argument for Butler, Gao and to some extent Batov, even through we have to acknowledge that Batov stanning is tied in many ways to backlash against "Yeltsin whitewashing" . The only ones that are really "completely miss the point by stanning them" are Yazov, De Gaulle, Lacerda, Kirkpatrick, and Bunychenko. I've pointed out that no one remotely stans Speer in any capacity outside appreciating him as a villain so he shouldn't even be here. Neither should Ciano because this is based on old lore, I bet if PW actually drops opinions will sour.

Speer shouldn't even be here at all. No one actually whitewashes Speer except maybe the very ancient devs that have long left, and I do feel Lonely Knightess(Panzer) was actually far more opening to correcting her view on that. Its' usually Dengist memes made with the full awareness he is a villain. Neither should Ciano because this is based on old lore, I bet if PW actually drops opinions will sour.

Zhdanov should be here, sure we can get Kardashev, but at what cost? So should Gumilev and Morita.

Trubbishfan said:
It's insane that Petlin is there. Petlin is genuinely up there with Sablin with how much bullshit he gets away with.

Petlin pisses off literally everyone important at super regional. The corporations Matkovsky set up a whole board for in the government just gracefully accept them losing their power. The army just allows itself to be purged of Matkovsky loyalists and the most prominent opposition in the army (general Alexander Pavlov) just fuckin' gives up and goes home. The Labourists and Old Guard don't kick off a fuss when they're kicked off the government (though to be fair, this one can be explained by Petlin having majority reformists in the government).

And when Petlin sets up a democracy, does his own personal bias effect the process? He was an ex member of the RFP after all but nope he's perfectly fine with letting communists run for government after a grand total of 1 event. This need to make Petlin omega wholesome also character assassinated Matkovsky with the worst event in TNO currently with the radio free Magadan ending that favours him.

Also missing Bukharina, Sony and the Modernists.
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The issue with Petlin is that he is literally a figure we know jackshit about, which makes the sincerity of his reforms a easier pill to swallow.
 

3.21869kilometres

xie323 said:
The issue with Petlin is that he is literally a figure we know jackshit about, which makes the sincerity of his reforms a easier pill to swallow.
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That's not what my issue with Petlin was about. Petlin IRL was a typical White Emigre who wrote a monarchist literary journal loyal to Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia (Vladimir III) after leaving the RFP and fleeing to America when Rodzaevsky took control of the RFP away from Vladimir D. Kosmin and his moderate wing of: Nationalists, monarchists and anti-German fascists. I don't mind Petlin being changed because of the radically different circumstances in TNO nor do I mind him reforming. I thinks it's an intresting plot.

What I do complain about with Petlin is the absolute ease he implements his reforms. He faces essentially zero pushback from the many people he pisses off during super regional: the corporations board set up by Matkovsky is peacefully dissolved with no pushback, the army filled with labourists loyalists (especially general Pavlov) literally just give and go home instead of attempting push back against Petlin at all.

There's also the fact that Petlin reforms far too quickly for it to be in any way believable. He shouldn't be OK with letting communists run in government after one event. He should either be extremely anxious about letting any communists into government at all or not even let them run at all. This will provide a nice subplot about Petlin having to push back against his own personal beliefs of anti communism (he was a member of the RFP for decades) to implement the ideal democracy.
 
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3.21869kilometres

xie323 said:
Werbell actually does legitimately good things in his better paths and if we list him we can list ANYONE with a bad path like "pre-rework Sablin" but whom can also be really wholesome
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Werbell Cincinnatus path isn't really wholesome at all. It's made abundantly clear that the Russians still despise the mercenary government, it doesn't change because a few collabs like Sobchak are in it now. Nor it is particularly benevolent towards the Russians living under it either.

It also doesn't fit with Werbell's IRL track record given he was a far rightist who worked for people like Trujillo for a decade and his involvement in things like the LaRouche movement.
 
Whiteshore

Whiteshore

Trubbishfan said:
Werbell Cincinnatus path isn't really wholesome at all. It's made abundantly clear that the Russians still despise the mercenary government, it doesn't change because a few collabs like Sobchak are in it now. Nor it is particularly benevolent towards the Russians living under it either.
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I see it as a regime on the same level as Bunyachenko, Solzhenitsyn, Shafarevich, Matkovsky, or Rogneda in that it is “bad, but things can always be worse” path.
 
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