Mackensen class battlecruisers in WW1

[CalBear]

Perhaps

But how far away from the QE class would the German Battle cruiser force have to stay to be out of range? How much extra distance will it have to cover to get in front of them, and how long will it take? And, in the North Sea, what risk of losing contact?

Based on "real world" limitations (WW I 15" guns could fire beyond the ability of shipboard observers to properly follow fall of shot) around 25,000 yards to be safe. At around 20K it is "look to your life" time, especially since you are crossing the Tee of ships that can tear you to pieces while you can not come close to returning the favor. At 15,000 yards the heavier gunned ship will start to adjust course to bring all for turrets to bear and that will be all she wrote. Only question is mission kill or hard kill.

By the time the German BC, even with a four knot speed advantage, manage to overtake and get into a non suicidal position to cross the British Tee, the 5th Battle Squadron, which had a three-five knot advantage over the HSF Battle line, will have completely broken contact with the German heavies and be free to deal solely with the much less well armed/armored battlecruiser force.

 

[I want to learn]

Depends on the angles of approach and you seem to assume the HSF is in a good position to cut corners while chasing the 5th BS. Try working it out on paper and bear in mind visibility conditions.

So let’s say the German battlecruisers are roughly parallel to the 5th battle squadron when the 5th battle squadron sights the HSF ten miles away and turns to run like Beatty did. If given an hour or two and a 2 or 3 knot speed advantage (a time frame and speeds compatible with Jutland) the German battlecruisers can get ~5 miles ahead of the 5th BS while the HSF has fallen to 15 miles behind the 5th BS. Then the German battlecruisers turn east (to make the math simple) orthogonal to the 5th BS in an attempt to cross their T and the 5th BS follows suit. The HSF body makes an implausible (but mathematically facile) 45 degree turn to intercept. On these (rigidly unchanging idealized) courses the HSF crosses the tracks of the 5th battle squadron one more hour later, with the 5th battle squadron ~14,000 yards to the east at prime naval gunnery range. They’ve probably been under fire at these or lower ranges for about 20 minutes, but have probably had a good half hour to shoot at the German battlecruisers without interference.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

So let’s say the German battlecruisers are roughly parallel to the 5th battle squadron when the 5th battle squadron sights the HSF ten miles away and turns to run like Beatty did. If given an hour or two and a 2 or 3 knot speed advantage (a time frame and speeds compatible with Jutland) the German battlecruisers can get ~5 miles ahead of the 5th BS while the HSF has fallen to 15 miles behind the 5th BS. Then the German battlecruisers turn east (to make the math simple) orthogonal to the 5th BS in an attempt to cross their T and the 5th BS follows suit. The HSF body makes an implausible (but mathematically facile) 45 degree turn to intercept. On these (rigidly unchanging idealized) courses the HSF crosses the tracks of the 5th battle squadron one more hour later, with the 5th battle squadron ~14,000 yards to the east at prime naval gunnery range. They’ve probably been under fire at these or lower ranges for about 20 minutes, but have probably had a good half hour to shoot at the German battlecruisers without interference.

See Calbear's post for the probable real life outcome. Or game it using an old war game like Dreadnought.

It might not be very pretty for either the battle cruisers or the HSF.

And how far away will the Grand Fleet be? Not as far as at Jutland, nor would 5BS make the same mistakes as Beatty did.

I wonder if Beatty might try to use a part of his force as bait and slip 5BS into the rear of a retreating HSF?

 

[mescal]

By the time the German BC, even with a four knot speed advantage, manage to overtake and get into a non suicidal position to cross the British Tee

Not to mention that, even under those irrealistic conditions (no german BC was able to get close to top speed during the run to the north due to previous damage), and assuming an equaly unrealistic zero percent hit rate by 5BS, there is no possibility to get to such a position before encountering Jellicoe.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Based on "real world" limitations (WW I 15" guns could fire beyond the ability of shipboard observers to properly follow fall of shot) around 25,000 yards to be safe. At around 20K it is "look to your life" time, especially since you are crossing the Tee of ships that can tear you to pieces while you can not come close to returning the favor. At 15,000 yards the heavier gunned ship will start to adjust course to bring all for turrets to bear and that will be all she wrote. Only question is mission kill or hard kill.

By the time the German BC, even with a four knot speed advantage, manage to overtake and get into a non suicidal position to cross the British Tee, the 5th Battle Squadron, which had a three-five knot advantage over the HSF Battle line, will have completely broken contact with the German heavies and be free to deal solely with the much less well armed/armored battlecruiser force.

I'd probably want to work it out with a good naval war game but that's pretty much my expectation. I think given how tough German battlecruisers were, mission kills are more likely than sinkings, even with the new Greenboy shells.

Of course how many of the battered battlecruisers will make it home if the GF or even the British battle cruisers come into play is another matter.

 

[CalBear]

Not to mention that, even under those irrealistic conditions (no german BC was able to get close to top speed during the run to the north due to previous damage), and assuming an equaly unrealistic zero percent hit rate by 5BS, there is no possibility to get to such a position before encountering Jellicoe.

The theory here is that the HSF manages to spring one of it's traps and catches 5th Battle Squadron on its own far enough away from the Grand Fleet that the rest of the Battle Force can't intervene.

It is, of course, stunningly unlikely, but that didn't stop Sheer from dreaming of it for pretty much the entire war.

 

[naraic]

The theory here is that the HSF manages to spring one of it's traps and catches 5th Battle Squadron on its own far enough away from the Grand Fleet that the rest of the Battle Force can't intervene.

It is, of course, stunningly unlikely, but that didn't stop Sheer from dreaming of it for pretty much the entire war.

It was somewhat possible early in ww1 when the Grand Fleet didn't have a single base. It meant that the Grand Fleet would sail from various bases and rendevouz together.

If the Germans managed to hide the fact that they were at sea long enough, and if they had a good guess at the Rendevouz location they could hunt down a squadron. Later in ww1 once the grand Fleet was based together in Scapa there was no chance. The battlecruisers being based separately don't matter as they are fast enough to get away from the High Seas Fleet.

 

[alfredtuomi]

The theory here is that the HSF manages to spring one of it's traps and catches 5th Battle Squadron on its own far enough away from the Grand Fleet that the rest of the Battle Force can't intervene.

It is, of course, stunningly unlikely, but that didn't stop Sheer from dreaming of it for pretty much the entire war.

Hmmmm......so the 5th is running away with the German BC squad slowly over taking them on a parallel course with the HSF falling out of range.Then when the BC's get far enough ahead they turn towards the 5th to cross their T.Is this when the Commander of the 5th develops a shit eating grin on his face and turns to his flag officer and says "signal form line abreast and close with the enemy"?

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Hmmmm......so the 5th is running away with the German BC squad slowly over taking them on a parallel course with the HSF falling out of range.Then when the BC's get far enough ahead they turn towards the 5th to cross their T.Is this when the Commander of the 5th develops a shit eating grin on his face and turns to his flag officer and says "signal form line abreast and close with the enemy"?

I think the assumption has to be that the German battlecruisers are well out of sight whe lighter units lure the unsupported (?) 5th BS onto the main HSF. Naturally 5BS turns tail after a brief exchange of fire at long distance . Then out of a convenient fog bank looms the Scouting Group crossing its T at 12k yards where the German guns can actually cause some damage. Especially Mackensens' 13.8". So while the battlecruisers are turned into scrap metal pdq the British ships are slowed down enough for the HSF to catch them.

End result the 5th BS sunk before the GF gets there. But at a cost of much of the HSF mission kills and vulnerable to cruisers etc.

Not a likely scenario from late 1917.

 

[alfredtuomi]

I think the assumption has to be that the German battlecruisers are well out of sight whe lighter units lure the unsupported (?) 5th BS onto the main HSF. Naturally 5BS turns tail after a brief exchange of fire at long distance . Then out of a convenient fog bank looms the Scouting Group crossing its T at 12k yards where the German guns can actually cause some damage. Especially Mackensens' 13.8". So while the battlecruisers are turned into scrap metal pdq the British ships are slowed down enough for the HSF to catch them.

End result the 5th BS sunk before the GF gets there. But at a cost of much of the HSF mission kills and vulnerable to cruisers etc.

Not a likely scenario from late 1917.

I don t think it's possible under any circumstances.Unless one has radar.Or reliable aerial scouts and very clean burning oil fired boilers.
Then there are those new fangled green boys that actually explode after penetrating armor .And if the British don t have to build cargo and ASW ships then the Admiral class get built,maybe even with those BL15b's(it was one of the options put forth) which would be a shock to the HSF.But then I don t think Germany has the resources to finish any of the uncompleted BC's.

 

[McPherson]

So let’s say the German battlecruisers are roughly parallel to the 5th battle squadron when the 5th battle squadron sights the HSF ten miles away and turns to run like Beatty did. If given an hour or two and a 2 or 3 knot speed advantage (a time frame and speeds compatible with Jutland) the German battlecruisers can get ~5 miles ahead of the 5th BS while the HSF has fallen to 15 miles behind the 5th BS. Then the German battlecruisers turn east (to make the math simple) orthogonal to the 5th BS in an attempt to cross their T and the 5th BS follows suit. The HSF body makes an implausible (but mathematically facile) 45 degree turn to intercept. On these (rigidly unchanging idealized) courses the HSF crosses the tracks of the 5th battle squadron one more hour later, with the 5th battle squadron ~14,000 yards to the east at prime naval gunnery range. They’ve probably been under fire at these or lower ranges for about 20 minutes, but have probably had a good half hour to shoot at the German battlecruisers without interference.

IJN wargaming (^^^) that is to assume the enemy will conform to what one wishes for him to do. As a Briton; I angle away and loop on the inside curves, USN style, and beat away with my 38cm/42s until Hipper finally figures it out and runs for his life. As I have as little respect for Scheer as an admiral as I have for Beatty, I presume Evans Thomas will lead Scheer blissfully and blindly into the British gun fire trap that not even a Beatty can screw up.

And then Beatty will screw it up and Scheer escapes. Jutland 2.0. Inconclusive.

 

[I want to learn]

IJN wargaming (^^^) that is to assume the enemy will conform to what one wishes for him to do. As a Briton; I angle away and loop on the inside curves

But then the German battlecruisers loop away too and the maneuvers costs the 5th battle squadron ground to the more powerful HSF. I mean this seems to mathematically be a chase-pursuit game and there’s some inputs that lead to the 5th battle squadron getting “caught” and some where it makes it away clean. It’s not obvious to me the 5th battle squadron always gets away under all plausible conditions.

Plus, there’s other factors besides just the capital ships: even if German battlecruisers avoid a battle-line brawl with battleships, they handily overmatch Royal Navy screening cruisers, and so set up torpedo boat attacks.

 

[McPherson]

But then the German battlecruisers loop away too and the maneuvers costs the 5th battle squadron ground to the more powerful HSF. I mean this seems to mathematically be a chase-pursuit game and there’s some inputs that lead to the 5th battle squadron getting “caught” and some where it makes it away clean. It’s not obvious to me the 5th battle squadron always gets away under all plausible conditions.

Plus, there’s other factors besides just the capital ships: even if German battlecruisers avoid a battle-line brawl with battleships, they handily overmatch Royal Navy screening cruisers, and so set up torpedo boat attacks.

If the Germans loop away (And Hipper would do that maneuver, because he was a good tactician and competent admiral.), then Evans Thomas baselines his, Hipper's track, in the merge, goes for the angle on Hipper's track and beats on Hipper's ships some more. It would look something like this.

That is a hypothetical. The Japanese have a 1.5 m/s or about 3.25 knot edge in speed.

 

[I want to learn]

If the Germans loop away (And Hipper would do that maneuver, because he was a good tactician and competent admiral.), then Evans Thomas baselines his, Hipper's track, in the merge, goes for the angle on Hipper's track and beats on Hipper's ships some more. It would look something like this.

View attachment 642044

That is a hypothetical. The Japanese have a 1.5 m/s or about 3.25 knot edge in speed.

Honestly I find that a pretty busy map with very little context and it’s not immediately obviously to me what the parallels of the naval battle of Guadalcanal are to a “Scheer’s scheme” scenario. Are you saying the Japanese battlecruisers parallel the German battlecruisers and are just as overmatched by the Washington and South Dakota as by the 5th battle squadron? Because it’s not like Ise, Hyuga, Yamashiro and Fuso to represent HSF stand-ins were 10 miles behind Kirishima when the battle started and it would have been a very different fight if they had been.

 

[McPherson]

Honestly I find that a pretty busy map with very little context and it’s not immediately obviously to me what the parallels of the naval battle of Guadalcanal are to a “Scheer’s scheme” scenario. Are you saying the Japanese battlecruisers parallel the German battlecruisers and are just as overmatched by the Washington and South Dakota as by the 5th battle squadron? Because it’s not like Ise, Hyuga, Yamashiro and Fuso to represent HSF stand-ins were 10 miles behind Kirishima when the battle started and it would have been a very different fight if they had been.

If you are fighting at Dogger Bank then it would be obvious, how it fits.

24 January 1915 – Dogger Bank | The Great War Blog

The ATL Guadalcanal naval battle shows how "light forces can "sheep dog" a gun line.

 

[I want to learn]

If you are fighting at Dogger Bank then it would be obvious, how it fits.

24 January 1915 – Dogger Bank | The Great War Blog

The ATL Guadalcanal naval battle shows how "light forces can "sheep dog" a gun line.

I mean, can you explain in any more detail yourself? You keep posting these maps devoid of context besides a one liner of your personalized jargon as if that proves your point.

I mean, “sheep dogging”? Has that compound gerund been to describe a naval tactic ever before?

 

[CalBear]

I mean, can you explain in any more detail yourself? You keep posting these maps devoid of context besides a one liner of your personalized jargon as if that proves your point.

I mean, “sheep dogging”? Has that compound gerund been to describe a naval tactic ever before?

As far as the last question... Yes. Shepherding is more common.

 

[McPherson]

Visualize this...

I mean, can you explain in any more detail yourself? You keep posting these maps devoid of context besides a one liner of your personalized jargon as if that proves your point.

I mean, “sheep dogging”? Has that compound gerund been to describe a naval tactic ever before?

sheepdogging - To guide someone to a literal or figurative person, place, or thing by herding them as a sheepdog does. In naval terms that means to lane an enemy into a kill track solution by torpedo or missile attack. The classic example is how Jesse Oldendorf used naval terrain and Coward's destroyers (sheep dogs) to drive Nishimura precisely into his gun-line at Surigao Strait. Only one problem with the plan... the sheep dogs tore Nishimura up and Oldendorf's battle-line did not get their gun-kills.

 

[CalBear]

Visualize this...

sheepdogging - To guide someone to a literal or figurative person, place, or thing by herding them as a sheepdog does. In naval terms that means to lane an enemy into a kill track solution by torpedo or missile attack. The classic example is how Jesse Oldendorf used naval terrain and Coward's destroyers (sheep dogs) to drive Nishimura precisely into his gun-line at Surigao Strait. Only one problem with the plan... the sheep dogs tore Nishimura up and Oldendorf's battle-line did not get their gun-kills.

That's what you get get when you use wolves as sheep dogs and forget the muzzles.

 

[I want to learn]

Visualize this...

sheepdogging - To guide someone to a literal or figurative person, place, or thing by herding them as a sheepdog does. In naval terms that means to lane an enemy into a kill track solution by torpedo or missile attack. The classic example is how Jesse Oldendorf used naval terrain and Coward's destroyers (sheep dogs) to drive Nishimura precisely into his gun-line at Surigao Strait. Only one problem with the plan... the sheep dogs tore Nishimura up and Oldendorf's battle-line did not get their gun-kills.

This post invokes the battle of Surigao Straight, the one before that invoked Dogger Bank, and the one before that invoked the naval battle of Guadalcanal. I’m convinced you’re just naming random famous naval battles at this point. It’s not helpful. Like Surigao Straight was a night battle where one side used radar to straddle 16 inch shells at 22,000 yards with the opening shot in the dark. It’s a radically different scenario than a redone Dogger Bank or Jutland.