Mackensen class battlecruisers in WW1

What if the Mackensen class battlecruisers (and possibly other large surface ships) had been given higher priority and completed during World War One? I think it’s an interesting POD because it seems plausible and impactful.

The German fleet of capital ships throughout the war sought to destroy the Royal Navy in detail to break the blockade. Fast capital ships therefore have a place within existing strategies. The other main naval strategy was commerce war by U-boats. I think the decision to focus on U-boats was not a given, because the German high command vacillated between the two strategies. I have read German battlecruiser construction was slowed by the diversion of resources to the U-boats. A change in priorities away from commerce war should speed battlecruiser construction, where it seems significant resources were invested IOTL seeing as multiple Mackensens were launched. In peacetime, it seems Grosscruisers were built in ~30 months. If this pace continued in war time, the HSF would start getting its new ships in mid-1917, which is also fortunately before the butterflies from no USW get too crazy. They might get the ships even earlier if they could accelerate from their peace timetable which is something the British did with the Renown class.

Speaking of the British, we already probably have a good idea of what they would have done in response: all the same things they did IOTL because they assumed the Mackensens were being completed in a timely fashion. AIUI initially the Admiralty expected the Queen Elizabeth class to be consistently 25 knot fully armored battlecruisers rather than the at-best 24 knot battleships they got, so they weren’t really aware of the potential for a “battlecruiser gap” until the QEs came into service in 1915, leading to the Hood being laid down in mid 1916.

So in mid-1917 (with only a small butterfly net) the Germans might have have Von der Tan, Moltke, Seydlitz, 2 Derfflingers (Hindenburg complete with Lutzow sunk at Jutland) and 2 Mackensens. The Royal Navy might have only 3 surviving ships (Lion, Tiger, and Princess Royal) designed for BC-on-BC combat after Queen Mary was sunk at Jutland, and even they aren’t looking super hot in a matchup against Mackensens. The 4 remaining I-class dreadnought armored cruisers are downright obsolescent against a German scouting force with Mackensens, and the Courageous and Glorious were simply not designed for that task. The Repulse and Renown might be able to hold their own after their post-Jutland armor enhancements, but still aren’t ideal. Those Royal Navy ships have to hold the line for at least 6 months, because the Admiral-class (essentially designed as Mackensen killers) should be constructed faster without Unrestricted Submarine Warfare, but could probably never be ready before 1918.


Miscellaneous:
Do Saschen and Württemburg get built by 1917 too? What about Salamis, potentially constructed as a battlecruiser? Does the Royal Navy reconstruct Furious with 15 inch guns if they’re short on battlecruisers?
 
Unless their presence makes the crews of the HSF not mutiny when they hear about the sortie in 1918, I doubt they do much. Completing more than one and maybe either Salamis or a Sachsen is pretty hard unless the Germans, fighting for their lives on land, devote a crap ton of resources to try to gain a dubious advantage at sea.
 
The Mackensens were good designs that would've handed any British battlecruiser their ass one-on-one, but it's not one-on-one. British superiority in dreadnoughts matters far more than the superiority in battlecruisers the Germans would have enjoyed.
 
British superiority in dreadnoughts matters far more than the superiority in battlecruisers the Germans would have enjoyed

Is that true though? Battlecruisers generally seem to have been far more active than dreadnoughts in the North Sea. If the Royal Navy had less than parity in battlecruisers, the battle fleet couldn’t scout properly, making them unlikely to catch enemy dreadnoughts, or worse, vulnerable to tactically compromising fights like their “T getting crossed” or isolated squadrons getting savaged. At the times the Royal Navy thought the Mackensens were active, the Grand Fleet didn’t come out as much. That suited the Mackensen-less German navy of OTL fine but I’m pretty sure they knew exactly which buttons to push if they wanted to force the point: how many times does a Mackensen have to bombard Yarmouth before Beatty is goaded to action?
 
I don't think they could be ready in mid 1917

When the were launched (and the construction stopped) they were many months from being completed

Mackensen was launched on 21 April 1917 and had 15 months of construction left

Graf Spee was launched on 15 September 1917 and had 12 months of construction left

So both ships might have commissioned around Sept 1918 - but they would be un worked up so it would be a stretch to have them ready before November

The last 2 were not launched during the war
 

McPherson

Banned
Is that true though? Battlecruisers generally seem to have been far more active than dreadnoughts in the North Sea. If the Royal Navy had less than parity in battlecruisers, the battle fleet couldn’t scout properly, making them unlikely to catch enemy dreadnoughts, or worse, vulnerable to tactically compromising fights like their “T getting crossed” or isolated squadrons getting savaged. At the times the Royal Navy thought the Mackensens were active, the Grand Fleet didn’t come out as much. That suited the Mackensen-less German navy of OTL fine but I’m pretty sure they knew exactly which buttons to push if they wanted to force the point: how many times does a Mackensen have to bombard Yarmouth before Beatty is goaded to action?
See Map attached (Google Images source) Polar Maps and Projections: Part 1, Overview ← Winwaed Blog.

The Mackensens have the 15,000 km to operate south of Reykjavik, but they do not have the at sea replenishment to STAY there. The British RN have the bases and the support structure in Scotland and North Ireland to intercept... and the naval logistics to sustain and stay.

And Murphy knows the USN will be waiting... for the Germans. The Americans will NOT allow the HSF to position itself to threaten American home waters. That is why PLAN BLACK included an Iceland annex.
Germany WWI naval problem_2.png
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Mackensens were good designs that would've handed any British battlecruiser their ass one-on-one, but it's not one-on-one. British superiority in dreadnoughts matters far more than the superiority in battlecruisers the Germans would have enjoyed.
And the reality is that even if they came out early they would have wound up facing Queen Elizabeth class "Fast" BB (probably the single biggest change if the HSF had them in service earlier is that the last four Revenge class are reordered/modified to be Queen Elizabeth class).

Germany would also have to be willing to send the HSF out again in force to make any difference, and there is no real sign that that was something that was going be successful (either they face a munity or they hook into the Grand Fleet again and don't manage to get away like at Jutland and are pounded into hulks).
 
I don't think they could be ready in mid 1917

When the were launched (and the construction stopped) they were many months from being completed

Mackensen was launched on 21 April 1917 and had 15 months of construction left

Graf Spee was launched on 15 September 1917 and had 12 months of construction left

So both ships might have commissioned around Sept 1918 - but they would be un worked up so it would be a stretch to have them ready before November

The last 2 were not launched during the war

But Mackensen was laid down in Jan 1915. The last German battlecruiser to be completed before the war was Seydlitz - in the 27 months from Feb 1911 to May 1913. If Mackensen is constructed in the same amount of time, she’s commissioned in April 1917. The Royal Navy for its part commissioned the battlecruisers it had laid down in January 1915 by September 1916. I think 1917 is perfectly doable if that’s what been priorized.
 
See Map attached (Google Images source) Polar Maps and Projections: Part 1, Overview ← Winwaed Blog.

The Mackensens have the 15,000 km to operate south of Reykjavik, but they do not have the at sea replenishment to STAY there. The British RN have the bases and the support structure in Scotland and North Ireland to intercept... and the naval logistics to sustain and stay.

And Murphy knows the USN will be waiting... for the Germans. The Americans will NOT allow the HSF to position itself to threaten American home waters. That is why PLAN BLACK included an Iceland annex.View attachment 641397

What does Iceland have to do with this? The HSF had plenty of ways to draw out the Grand Fleet without adventuring on to the Atlantic: raids in the English Channel, bombarding Britain’s east coast, the Scandinavian conveys, etc.
 
ASSUMING the Germans put a pre-war building tempo you are looking at BEST 2.5 but more likely 3 full years. So we are talking late 1917 but much more likely 1918 for any ships to be finished. Then you need to include another several months to work the ships up so we are into 1918 without a doubt.

Michael
 

McPherson

Banned
What does Iceland have to do with this? The HSF had plenty of ways to draw out the Grand Fleet without adventuring on to the Atlantic: raids in the English Channel, bombarding Britain’s east coast, the Scandinavian conveys, etc.
Even if the entire RN is sunk, how is the HSF supposed to block the Western Approaches? Especially with those short ranged battleships? And against Standards? NACIH the HSF survives.
 
And the reality is that even if they came out early they would have wound up facing Queen Elizabeth class "Fast" BB (probably the single biggest change if the HSF had them in service earlier is that the last four Revenge class are reordered/modified to be Queen Elizabeth class).

Germany would also have to be willing to send the HSF out again in force to make any difference, and there is no real sign that that was something that was going be successful (either they face a munity or they hook into the Grand Fleet again and don't manage to get away like at Jutland and are pounded into hulks).

No offense, but I think everything you just said was wrong. The Revenge class battleships were being launched as the Mackensens were being laid down IOTL, and were in service long before it’s really plausible for the Mackensens to be. There’s no way to turn them into battlecruisers without conducting wholesale reconstructions on brand new ships. Also even if the Revenge class is handwaved into Queen Elizabeth class ships, that doesn’t help much because the Royal Navy was deeply skeptical of using Queen Elizabeths as battlecruiser-supplements even before Jutland and gave up entirely on the idea afterwards. And finally, the HSF did sail out in force on multiple occasions after Jutland without mutinying, until the U-boat war sapped resources and attention.
 

Riain

Banned
All the ships Germany could realistically finish aren't going to matter because the naval command structure was totally shit. The Kaiser was in command of the fleet, personally, and was more afraid of losing his beloved ships than losing the war so would never allow them to be risked.

What is needed more than more ships is a command structure that allows them to be used. I'm not even talking about capital ship, but flotillas of destroyers being deployed where they are needed for example.
 

McPherson

Banned
Even if the entire RN is sunk, how is the HSF supposed to block the Western Approaches? Especially with those short ranged battleships? And against Standards? NACIH the HSF survives.
Follow up... Mahan Point #2.

Thing is, the Germans are no more able to land in the British isles in WWI than in WWII. Reason in WWI is that they don't have the spare troops or the spare shipping or the logistics or even the Know-How.

The only way to navally force a decision is then to put the HSF onto the trade routes (Western Approaches), and conduct a surface blockade or raid setup. And how does Germany do that, when their fleet is not built for it?
 
Even if the entire RN is sunk, how is the HSF supposed to block the Western Approaches? Especially with those short ranged battleships? And against Standards? NACIH the HSF survives.

I’d assume if the HSF wins some 1917 Tsushima-like victory in the North Sea, they won’t be mucking around commerce raiding in the Western Approaches. They’re simultaneously threatening cut lines of communication in the English Channel between the British Metropole and BEF while threatening to conduct Sealion 1918. The British Army leaves France to defend the homeland while it still can and France sues for peace.

Personally I doubt the Mackensens being commissioned would lead to that - even if the HSF repeats Jutland (ie sinks 3 capital ships for loss of one of its own) a second time with the benefit of the Mackensens, it’s still got to do it ten more times before it sinks all the 30-odd dreadnoughts the Royal Navy had available.
 
I’d assume if the HSF wins some 1917 Tsushima-like victory in the North Sea, they won’t be mucking around commerce raiding in the Western Approaches. They’re simultaneously threatening cut lines of communication in the English Channel between the British Metropole and BEF while threatening to conduct Sealion 1918. The British Army leaves France to defend the homeland while it still can and France sues for peace.

Personally I doubt the Mackensens being commissioned would lead to that - even if the HSF repeats Jutland (ie sinks 3 capital ships for loss of one of its own) a second time with the benefit of the Mackensens, it’s still got to do it ten more times before it sinks all the 30-odd dreadnoughts the Royal Navy had available.
Assuming the HSF wins a victory vs the GF and still has a fleet stronger than the Marine Nationale (unlikely) it still has to run the gauntlet of mines and small, torpedo armed craft that were in the English Channel for exactly that job. As for Sealion 1918, why would it work then with worse technology and no example when it is pretty much ASB in 1940?
 

McPherson

Banned
I’d assume if the HSF wins some 1917 Tsushima-like victory in the North Sea, they won’t be mucking around commerce raiding in the Western Approaches. They’re simultaneously threatening cut lines of communication in the English Channel between the British Metropole and BEF while threatening to conduct Sealion 1918. The British Army leaves France to defend the homeland while it still can and France sues for peace.

Personally I doubt the Mackensens being commissioned would lead to that - even if the HSF repeats Jutland (ie sinks 3 capital ships for loss of one of its own) a second time with the benefit of the Mackensens, it’s still got to do it ten more times before it sinks all the 30-odd dreadnoughts the Royal Navy had available.
But they mechanically CAN'T. They don't have the range or sustainment as I stated. Sealion 1918 is a fantasy for the reasons I stated. How do they lift and sustain 500,000 + troops?
 
Follow up... Mahan Point #2.

Thing is, the Germans are no more able to land in the British isles in WWI than in WWII. Reason in WWI is that they don't have the spare troops or the spare shipping or the logistics or even the Know-How.

The only way to navally force a decision is then to put the HSF onto the trade routes (Western Approaches), and conduct a surface blockade or raid setup. And how does Germany do that, when their fleet is not built for it?

Even if the British Empire chooses to believe the home islands are safe after the Grand Fleet is all sunk, why would they let the BEF wither on the vine in France? Is France going to be able to supply two nation’s armies while under a close blockade from Belgian ports?
 
Even if the British Empire chooses to believe the home islands are safe after the Grand Fleet is all sunk, why would they let the BEF wither on the vine in France? Is France going to be able to supply two nation’s armies while under a close blockade from Belgian ports?
The Channel in 1917 was heavily mined and the Entente has destroyers and submarines to spare, especially if the Germans build Mackensen's instead of U-Boats. Raiding with anything more than the light forces used in OTL will have a very high attrition rate, and that's before we get into coastal guns and pre-dreadnoughts backing up light forces.
 
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McPherson

Banned
Even if the British Empire chooses to believe the home islands are safe after the Grand Fleet is all sunk, why would they let the BEF wither on the vine in France? Is France going to be able to supply two nation’s armies while under a close blockade from Belgian ports?
Three armies... RTL. Guess whose?
 
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