True or false England surrenders

[RodentRevolution]

Dunkirk was an unexpected ‘triumph’ - the plan was already being put into motion to fight on if a tenth of the figure had been saved. New units were being formed and aircraft production was ramping up. Britain had experience of losing a core professional army and replacing it with a New Army over time while a War was being fought, so a loss at Dunkirk wouldn’t be a nation shattering event.

This is only made an issue because people do not do early modern history, the British and indeed before the act of Union the English had an unfortunate tendency to lose armies all over the place.

On the English/British thing: English was commonly used to refer to Britain until the 50s at least. The terms were pretty much interchangeable.

Reminds me of a quote about some British officials besieged in Kabul during one of the Empire's periodic adventures there that went IIRC "There was a Scotsman, an Irishman and a Swiss, all quite happy to be referred to as English". There was a much more relaxed attitude to it all.

 

[The Red]

On the English/British thing: English was commonly used to refer to Britain until the 50s at least. The terms were pretty much interchangeable.

It does come across as a bit incongruous in relation to Dunkirk, as the 51st Highland Division and the 1st Royal Scots were some of the main units left behind to fight alongside the French rearguard.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

False. Look at the forces still in the UK during the evacuation. There was more than enough there to throw Hitler back into the channel, assuming any Germans even made it ashore after the Royal Navy got through with them. I forget who said it (other than an RN Admiral), but to quote him, "I do not say that they will not come. Only that they will not come by sea."

John Jervis, 1st Earl of St Vincent (1735-1823)

"I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

Though it works just as well for the Germans in 1940 as it did for the French in the Napoleonic Wars.

 

[viperzero]

It does come across as a bit incongruous in relation to Dunkirk, as the 51st Highland Division and the 1st Royal Scots were some of the main units left behind to fight alongside the French rearguard.

Well of course they fought on the topic is about England surrendering

 

[The Red]

Well of course they fought on the topic is about England surrendering

Yeah I was meaning more specifically in regards to the issue of referring to the British army as the "English" army in relation to Dunkirk. As others have astutely pointed out the decision had been made by the Cabinet to keep on going when the presumption was that only a small fraction of the forces in Dunkirk could be evacuated.

 

[MatthewB]

Is it true or false that England would have surrendered if the English army at Dunkirk have been destroyed(pod:no miracle of Dunkirk)

False. Britain still have the largest and most powerful navy, and a growing Air Force. Nothing is getting across the Channel, and without an invasion there is no surrender.

According to Wikipedia, the BEF lost 68,000 troops in the Battle of France before Dunkirk, so the nation was already capable of taking this military hit. 144,000 British troops escaped at Dunkirk, and I’d say the nation can withstand their destruction, for a total of 212,000 lost. Britain took similarly sized losses elsewhere, for example against Japan from Dec 41 to Feb 42 Britain lost (dead or captured) 145,000 in Malaya, a further 85,000 in Singapore and 30,000 troops in the fall of Burma.

 

[Intosh]

It does come across as a bit incongruous in relation to Dunkirk, as the 51st Highland Division and the 1st Royal Scots were some of the main units left behind to fight alongside the French rearguard.

51st Highland Division wasn't involved in the Battle of Dunkirk, it was on the Somme line at this time.

 

[The Red]

51st Highland Division wasn't involved in the Battle of Dunkirk, it was on the Somme line at this time.

That's correct, apologies, the 51st tried to evacuate via St Valery but the RN had already abandoned the port by the time they arrived.

 

[merlin]

As far as I’ve heard it the only British people are English

Just because some Scottish people want to break way from the Union, doesn't mean all Scotts are anti-British - they may cheer Scottish athletes more, but will still cheer British ones as a hole in the Olympics for example.
For, Wales the national proportion seeking to break away from England (as they see it), is much lower than in Scotland.

Britishness is under attack from those who wish to destroy the union that made the modern world. I was born in England as were my parents. My ancestors come from all parts of the United Kingdom. I'm British and those who say there's no such thing can go to H***.

Agreed, I'm Welsh especially when Rugby matches are played, while I was born in Cardiff, both grandfathers, and one grandmother is English. So think of myself as British/Welsh.

Pet hate is - American film stars etc., appearing on some (British) TV chat show, and saying to the compare 'how pleased I am to be in England'!

 

[MatthewB]

Just because some Scottish people want to break way from the Union, doesn't mean all Scotts are anti-British - they may cheer Scottish athletes more, but will still cheer British ones as a hole in the Olympics for example.
For, Wales the national proportion seeking to break away from England (as they see it), is much lower than in Scotland.

Agreed, I'm Welsh especially when Rugby matches are played, while I was born in Cardiff, both grandfathers, and one grandmother is English. So think of myself as British/Welsh.

To me British is more of a citizenship or passport, while English is an ethnicity and nation, same as Han Chinese, Welsh, Anishinaabe, etc. In some ways I feel badly for my English cousins, as unlike the Welsh and Scotts, they're sort of denied an identifiable people or ethnicity.

I am a UK-born ethnic English living in Canada.

 

[TheMatthew25]

Is it true or false that England would have surrendered if the English army at Dunkirk have been destroyed(pod:no miracle of Dunkirk)

I'm not too familiar to this battle compared to others but my answer would be no.

 

[Catsmate]

Unlikely but possible. It depends on many factors; the perception of British weakness, the Prime Minister, the armistice terms offered at cetera.
It certainly wouldn't have been a surrender, merely a negotiated peace to rebuild and wait for a suitable opportunity to stab Germany in the back...

 

[Zen9]

The thing is Hitler never wanted the war with the UK. If any kinds of talks would open at this chaotic time, wouldnt terms be quite mild and hard to refuse once dialogue had been initiated?
Which might happen here... no harm in hearing the terms...?

But behind the scenes I'm given to understand such efforts were underway and either you can believe them to be honest or a rise to stall things and buy time...

 

[Zen9]

To me British is more of a citizenship or passport, while English is an ethnicity and nation, same as Han Chinese, Welsh, Anishinaabe, etc. In some ways I feel badly for my English cousins, as unlike the Welsh and Scotts, they're sort of denied an identifiable people or ethnicity.

I am a UK-born ethnic English living in Canada.

And if I say anything I'm sure I'll be called all sorts of names and told that principles matter nought compared to popular desires.
But that's the price of being a civic nationalist or patriot if you prefer.

 

[Michele]

In the United States, the United Kingdom is often just referred to as England, similar to those who call the Netherlands Holland.

So the solution would be to educate the US citizens better?

 

[Drizzt]

One of these days someone needs to write a TL, where ENGLAND does indeed surrender. Following by the Nazis demobilizing, since they assume the war to be over only for Scottish and Welsh forces to successfully land on the undefended French coastline, since Britian as a whole did not surrender.

 

[Gudestein]

But behind the scenes I'm given to understand such efforts were underway and either you can believe them to be honest or a rise to stall things and buy time...

From the British or the Germans?
IIRC Churchill blocked Halifax from exploring the peace terms iotl. This might not be possible with 300k POW.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

as has been said before, they only thought they'd be able to pull roughly 40,000 out of the Dunkirk pocket. They expected to keep fighting after losing 300,000 men and most of the Army's equipment.

 

[Zen9]

One of these days someone needs to write a TL, where ENGLAND does indeed surrender. Following by the Nazis demobilizing, since they assume the war to be over only for Scottish and Welsh forces to successfully land on the undefended French coastline, since Britian as a whole did not surrender.

And Berwick-upon-Tweed!

 

[viperzero]

And Berwick-upon-Tweed!

But it will not be clearly stated leading people to wonder if berwick-upon-tweed is or isn’t at war.