Options German Pacific fleet 1914

[Cryhavoc101]

Emden alone was too weak to tackle the entire port - Muller was relying on surprise.

I'd bet a couple German AC's in the Indian Ocean would draw a couple British BC's in response, after which the iron dice may roll. OTOH, there's so many potential targets in the IO it would probably be tougher to find Spee than while shaving the morning after arrival at Falklands, he pops over the horizon. My bet is that in the IO Spee captures more coal than he think he might, and may still make a break for Germany in November. Damage to the AC's isn't that big a deal - they'll run out of ammunition anyways after which their usefulness is more of the fleet in being variety, and if so, can drop off most of the crew in East Africa while the ship itself might become a floating warehouse in some remote bay or other.

That was pretty much what I was saying - Spee pertty much sailed to the other side of the Pacific - fought Craddocks force sinking 2 obsolete crusiers and then got vitually wiped out in the Falklands having done very little to disrupt Entente commerce

The fleet in being is all well and good if the ships can be maintained and that needs a freindly port - which were few and far between and once identified can be masked.

Realistically the RN was going to catch up with them eventually (indeed the commadner of HMAS Australia had predicted where they were going and had asked for permission to persue but Australia was needed to cover troop convoys) and their destruction was inevitable - best thing they could have done is gone on a rampage in the far east and IO possibly arranging to regroup at a certain point for a main force attack on a major port?

And then either try to get to a East African Port and become a force of Marines or get inturned in a neutral port.

I think that getting back to Germany is going to be difficult in the extreme.

 

[Catspoke]

Is it conceivable the German ACs could raid into the Persian gulf. It seems a target rich environment and there are oil facilities as targets. When done or cornered, could the German ships go up the Shat Al Arab, as far as navigation allows?

The presence of the German ships and crews and guns could help prevent the loss at Fao in early November:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fao_Landing

 

[sdgottsch]

Since Coronel was 1 Nov 1914, they would instead have to move with the SMS Emden and arrive on Nov 5th to interfere with the Fao Landing.

Now the question, could the squadron take down the HMS Ocean?

 

[Catspoke]

Since Coronel was 1 Nov 1914, they would instead have to move with the SMS Emden and arrive on Nov 5th to interfere with the Fao Landing.

Now the question, could the squadron take down the HMS Ocean?

Yes we would have to assume, the 2 ACs move with Emden into the Indian ocean, presumably Nuremberg stays in the Pacific, (while the German Pacific islands are unoccupied there are things for her to to do there). Leipzig and Dresden are off the Americas.

Sometime in September the Germans would have to get orders to move to Turkey this way (not sure if the German ships could receive any communication form home like that).

Presumably though you could put the two ACs in the Shat Al Arab river, so wouldn't be directly accessible by HMS Ocean, but could provide fire support for the defense of the town.

 

[Glenn239]

I think that getting back to Germany is going to be difficult in the extreme.

I agree the odds might be poor overall, but the thing about getting back to Germany is that the guerre du course tactics would receive a shot in the arm if obsolete armored cruisers managed an around the world cruise and lived to tell about it.

 

[Catspoke]

If we assume that they had three coaler ships with the squadron, if they decided to skip the Falklands and run for home, the tricky part is finding sheltered out of the way places to transfer the coal between the ships where no one is going to telegraph or radio the admiralty.

There are uninhabited islands off Brazil,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeche_Island

But north of that it gets tricky to find places. British cruisers will visit likely spots.

 

[Driftless]

But north of that it gets tricky to find places. British cruisers will visit likely spots.

Plus, they'd be sailing into progressively busier shipping routes. With ammunition supplies being short by that point, they probably would try for a low profile, but the Carribbean, North or Eastern Atlantic are going to be busy. Sightings will be reported along the way and the RN/MN Admirals would be making educated guesses on von Spee's course.

 

[Catspoke]

Plus, they'd be sailing into progressively busier shipping routes. With ammunition supplies being short by that point, they probably would try for a low profile, but the Carribbean, North or Eastern Atlantic are going to be busy. Sightings will be reported along the way and the RN/MN Admirals would be making educated guesses on von Spee's course.

The only consolation, its December, dark in the North Atlantic, no radar, no air search, The Germans are still willing to raid BCs at this stage and could stage a diversion, or come out to meet for the last half across the North sea. Only the 3 BCs and a few of the most modern ACs can take on the German ACs until close to England.

I assume its coal off Brazil, then Spanish Sahara or the Canaries and then run for home.

 

[Driftless]

The only consolation, its December, dark in the North Atlantic, no radar, no air search, The Germans are still willing to raid BCs at this stage and could stage a diversion, or come out to meet for the last half across the North sea. Only the 3 BCs and a few of the most modern ACs can take on the German ACs until close to England.

I assume its coal off Brazil, then Spanish Sahara or the Canaries and then run for home.

A sighting anywhere close to Pillars of Hercules will give several Allied Admirals and Cabinet members palpitations, regardless of the state of von Spee's force. That would get some ships on the move certainly.

 

[Deleted member 9338]

Since Coronel was 1 Nov 1914, they would instead have to move with the SMS Emden and arrive on Nov 5th to interfere with the Fao Landing.

Now the question, could the squadron take down the HMS Ocean?

I am not sure the ACs could operate in the estuary, they would of been a surprise to the British though.

 

[Catspoke]

I am not sure the ACs could operate in the estuary, they would of been a surprise to the British though.

The depth of Scharnhorst is 8.2 meters, The Shat Al Arab depth is 8-15 meters from what I could find online, between Basra and Al Faw. So I am assuming in the lower part the 2 ACs could operate, A LC could make it up to Basra.

We would have to assume, the Germans in August when wireless towers were still up in the colonies, would have to broadcast possible friendly places for cruisers to seek refuge with Fao as one of those (not unreasonable after the Goeben is in Constantinople).

 

[Grey Wolf]

Coaling is important - Emden managed by capturing colliers, but she was one ship.

Von Spee was working on the assumption that German ships up to then trapped in Chile and Argentina would be able to come out and coal him.

As for the idea that he ought to have EXPECTED Sturdee and battlecruisers to be at the Falklands I see this as projecting what did happen back onto the uncertainty of what might happen. It was clear that with the creation of the German battlecruiser force that battlecruisers would be a scouting arm of the main battle fleet. Given this, the idea of breaking that up and scattering them around the world would seem... odd. Even if he could theorise that some might be sent after him, the idea that they would be at a nowhere place like Port Stanley instead of at Montevideo or somewhere like that is quite a stretch.

 

[Deleted member 9338]

I know that the British were concerned with the silt in the river and had trouble with bring merchant traffic over the bar.

Than again they would of put off any British Landing

The depth of Scharnhorst is 8.2 meters, The Shat Al Arab depth is 8-15 meters from what I could find online, between Basra and Al Faw. So I am assuming in the lower part the 2 ACs could operate, A LC could make it up to Basra.

We would have to assume, the Germans in August when wireless towers were still up in the colonies, would have to broadcast possible friendly places for cruisers to seek refuge with Fao as one of those (not unreasonable after the Goeben is in Constantinople).

 

[Driftless]

By comparison, IIRC, the Rufiji Delta where the SMS Konigsberg holed up was pretty shallow. The Konigsbergs draft was only 5.3m, which is comparatively little. The shallow and shifting sandbars of the Rufiji added to the complexity of trying to get the British monitors close enough to damage him. Even the picture of the scuttled Konigsberg makes it appear there was barely water under the keel.

Those shifting sandbars in many river system are going to the problem. They'd need to be regularly and recently dredged to keep a deep water channel open

 

[Catspoke]

The Wikipedia article states the river is silt prone and requires dredging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatt_al-Arab

This speaks of a Hamburg America Liner which sought refuge in the river, so it must have been naviagable to an extent:
https://books.google.com/books?id=7...B#v=onepage&q=Shat al arab depth 1914&f=false

From this article its seems, that ships often went in and out at the tides and it would be plenty deep enough at high tide:

https://books.google.com/books?id=F...burg American Liner persian gulf 1914&f=false

 

[CalBear]

What terrified Von Spee more than anything else was HMS Australia, which had been assigned to chase him and completely outclassed his armored cruisers. He was not staying in the Pacific with that ship in play.

What SHOULD have scared the crap out of him was the Kongo and Hiei. 2.5 knots fast, with 14" guns and heavier armor than the Australia.

 

[Md139115]

What SHOULD have scared the crap out of him was the Kongo and Hiei. 2.5 knots fast, with 14" guns and heavier armor than the Australia.

Yes, but Japan did not declare war on August 23rd, two weeks after Britain and Australia. By that point, Von Spee had already made it to the Marshall Islands, and was preparing to leave the Pacific.

 

[Catspoke]

The tricky part is the British (or Japanese) are always going to have a BC in any place that is important (or a Defense type AC or two). Even off Chile, if the British just did the logical thing and stayed with Canopus, they would have been invulnerable, and the Germans shouldn't have achieved anything there either.

The 2 German ACs lurking in the Indian Ocean can force the British to delay the ANZAC convoy, the Tanga invasion, the Fao invasion, as well as important mercantile trade, and if you capture cargo especially valuble (medical supplies, military supplies etc..), you could take it in prize to German East Africa where it might prove useful in the defense of the colony.

 

[Catspoke]

In this article, it states in November 1914 there were 221 German merchant ships were laid up in German ports and 1,059 in neutral ports, with another 245 having been interned in Allied ports.[9]

So certainly there were a lot of potential coalers around in neutral ports.
Also the Germans were able to keep huge coal consuming liners like Kronprinz Wilhelm raiding for 8 months.

So its not unreasonable to assume the Germans could keep a couple of ACs active for a number of months in the Indian ocean, where there are a number of neutral ports and sparsely populated places a ship could lurk.

The sheer number of ships of the worlds 2nd largest merchant navy however also shows the low results achieved in commerce raiding where even a good raid like the Emden isn't going to sink more than 20 ships. The ships would be more useful actually directly defending colonies where even if the ships were sunk, the guns and crews could be useful ashore (i.e. LC Koningsberg, or the WW2 example of the destroyers at Narvik)

https://warandsecurity.com/tag/neutral-rights/