WI: McVeigh escapes after OKC

Carl Schwamberger said:
The other group that will gain traction is 'The Government Did It' crowd. I know one or two of those & when the stop talking about 911 as a 'guvmint did it' one of their alternate rants is the OKC as a Fed crime.

American politics was a lot saner and less unmoored in the 90s than it is today and no social media or internet to spread this garbage is really helpful ...

There were other venues. I first read the guvmint conspiracy theory for the OKC attack in Soldier of Fortune magazine. In the same 1990s era a charter bus driver hauling my platoon of reservists generously passed out cassette tapes of a well spoken description of the UN armies assembling in new Mexico and Canada. & then there was simply face to face talking. Remember that? Desperately looking for a escape hatch while a pair of conspiracy nuts ramble on enthusiastically about CIA plots.
 
Carl Schwamberger said:
The other group that will gain traction is 'The Government Did It' crowd. I know one or two of those & when the stop talking about 911 as a 'guvmint did it' one of their alternate rants is the OKC as a Fed crime.



There were other venues. I first read the guvmint conspiracy theory for the OKC attack in Soldier of Fortune magazine. In the same 1990s era a charter bus driver hauling my platoon of reservists generously passed out cassette tapes of a well spoken description of the UN armies assembling in new Mexico and Canada. & then there was simply face to face talking. Remember that? Desperately looking for a escape hatch while a pair of conspiracy nuts ramble on enthusiastically about CIA plots.


Yeah, there will be the small fringe of maybe 0-5% or so, but they're exactly that. Compared to the level of disinformation today from certain TV networks and fake news sites it's just minuscule.
 
Carl Schwamberger said:
The other group that will gain traction is 'The Government Did It' crowd. I know one or two of those & when the stop talking about 911 as a 'guvmint did it' one of their alternate rants is the OKC as a Fed crime.



There were other venues. I first read the guvmint conspiracy theory for the OKC attack in Soldier of Fortune magazine. In the same 1990s era a charter bus driver hauling my platoon of reservists generously passed out cassette tapes of a well spoken description of the UN armies assembling in new Mexico and Canada. & then there was simply face to face talking. Remember that? Desperately looking for a escape hatch while a pair of conspiracy nuts ramble on enthusiastically about CIA plots.

Ah yes, the black helicopters crowd. Personified by Dale Gribble on King of the Hill.
 
Ah yes, the black helicopters crowd. ...

Those boys go wayyy back before the internet chat rooms. The title of the Movie 'Men in Black' was a relatively late use of a term well established among the conspiracy crowd.

Wish I had that old SoF article to refer to now. The one item that stuck was the author was proposing the OKC attack was made with a small 'Super Explosive' charge maybe ten kg if I recall correctly. Something from the CIA laboratories I guess, not a homemade fertilizer bomb at all. SoF had a great entertainment value in those days. that specific article was worth the price of the issue.
 
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Well, obvious to people who aren't looking for a reason to demonize Muslims and/or exonerate the militia movement. But of course there are quite a few Americans who ARE, in fact, looking for an excuse to do one or both of those things.

I think there'd be a lot of conspiracy-theorizing about it being Muslims, and the government covered it up for reasons of "political correctness" or "attacking the white race" or whatever(depending on the particlar brand of right-wing lunacy the various theorists held to). Mind you, there'd also be a lot of people in those circles thinking it was the ZOG or the UN black helicopters.

And all the conspiracy-mongering would get redoubled after 9-11. "See!! The government covered up the Muslim attack in '95, and then the Muslims came back and did it again in 2001, only with thousands dead this time!!"

God knows the roots of modern American Islamaphobia go pretty deep, and elements of it were around in the 1970s and '80s. Still, I think this would be a just a bit anachronistic in 1995. By then Islamic extremists were one of several "usual suspects;" despite the fall of the Soviet Union, I think at least as many people would speculate it could have been leftists as Muslims. The notion that if you take a really objective look at what constitutes terrorist actions (anti-union massacres for instance, or old fashioned Southern lynching, still carried over today with Klan and other white supremacist actions--or people who murder abortion providers) that actually American born and "white" looking conservatives ought to take pride of place as random suspects has a long history of being repressed, with what white conservative terrorism that is recognized at all tending to be placed into a different category on any pretext.

But...part of the nature of terrorist acts is that the terrorists generally want the injured public to know, if not specifically by name, then truthfully by type, who actually did it. Most causes terrorists seek to foster require that the victims know the perpetrators have the power to hurt them, and hope to rally more support for their cause by rousing the like-thinking masses they believe make them in the right by their heroic example. Even if we assume terrorists wish to survive their crimes and go uncaught, still they want the world to have a clue what kind of people did it. This makes their blow against their supposed enemies sharper, and their hope of a groundswell of mass support vindicating them something they can fantasize about.

Anyway you are correct that Islamic extremists of some kind had been on the rise as likely suspects, pretty much starting with the Iranian Revolution (before that, Middle Eastern terrorists would be regarded as more Communist aligned and of course primarily focused pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli--Ay-Rabs yes, but secular in their presentation and motives seemingly, and in cahoots with the Kremlin). The then recent first WTC attack would be a pointed case to consider. But it still might seem to be some sort of left wing extremist (mind, that's mostly slander, the wave of attacks in the Vietnam war era tended to avoid killing, but again we are talking about perceptions here) or Black Power perhaps.

I think that however the lobby to try to make the Muslims the next generic scapegoat had not quite congealed yet though it was getting there in organizational terms. The Taliban had yet to take over in Afghanistan, that nation being in chaotic civil war. Much of Osama Bin Laden's motivation was to get American forces out of bases in Saudi Arabia; they had been there for some years at this point, in the wake of Desert Storm, but the constellation familiar in the 2000s had not quite jelled yet. So the key thing is the desire of terrorists to let their victims know who they are generically; that would have clarified as white supremacist.

Note that just prior to 9/11, it was Russia and China GW Bush appeared to be picking fights with, not anyone in the Muslim world. I think your perception of Americans leaping to blame Muslims first and for everything is a post 9/11 thing; between the Iranian hostage crisis and 2001 they were one of several rouges in a revolving door.
 
Would McVeigh have tried to flee the USA after OKC? If so, where would he go - Canada? Mexico? Europe? Madagascar?

It’s hard to see how or why. He was a white supremacist and far-right guy who wouldn’t see anything appealing in a “pinko European” or non-white country. He also didn’t have any foreign contacts, and Americans tend to stand out abroad.
 
It’s hard to see how or why. He was a white supremacist and far-right guy who wouldn’t see anything appealing in a “pinko European” or non-white country. He also didn’t have any foreign contacts, and Americans tend to stand out abroad.

There's a certain vogue for Switzerland among American conservatives, given its highly decentralized political system, quiet social conservativism(check when women got the vote) as well as its reputation as a country where lax gun laws actually work. All of these would probably appeal to militia types, and if McVeigh knew about that, and was otherwise completely naive about how much any country would be willing to welcome him, who knows, he might try to flee there. (Again, this is not saying they'd let him in.)

Why do things work in Switerland and not in the USA?
 
There's a certain vogue for Switzerland among American conservatives, given its highly decentralized political system, quiet social conservativism(check when women got the vote) as well as its reputation as a country where lax gun laws actually work. All of these would probably appeal to militia types, and if McVeigh knew about that, and was otherwise completely naive about how much any country would be willing to welcome him, who knows, he might try to flee there. (Again, this is not saying they'd let him in.)

Why do things work in Switerland and not in the USA?

I don’t see it happening. In terms of state healthcare, nationwide law enforcement, open borders, secularism, etc., it would turn him off. The important thing to remember is that the guy was an *extremist.* He had a highly radical worldview and anybody who was an iota off it was an Enemy of the One True Cause. These people don’t think in terms of nuance.

In any case it wouldn’t work. Switzerland has insanely tough immigration laws, on level with Denmark or Japan, and they enforce them vigorously. McVeigh didn’t speak any of the languages or know the culture and he had nothing that would make the Swiss grant him a visa. If he tried to enter illegally he would quickly be found out. I think he would be smart enough not to go for it. Fleeing the country when you’re an American fugitive is commonly regarded as a no-no unless you can openly live somewhere under a friendly government like Marc Rich, Edward Snowden, or Roman Polanski. We tend to stand out abroad.
 
I don’t see it happening. In terms of state healthcare, nationwide law enforcement, open borders, secularism, etc., it would turn him off. The important thing to remember is that the guy was an *extremist.* He had a highly radical worldview and anybody who was an iota off it was an Enemy of the One True Cause. These people don’t think in terms of nuance.

In any case it wouldn’t work. Switzerland has insanely tough immigration laws, on level with Denmark or Japan, and they enforce them vigorously. McVeigh didn’t speak any of the languages or know the culture and he had nothing that would make the Swiss grant him a visa. If he tried to enter illegally he would quickly be found out. I think he would be smart enough not to go for it. Fleeing the country when you’re an American fugitive is commonly regarded as a no-no unless you can openly live somewhere under a friendly government like Marc Rich, Edward Snowden, or Roman Polanski. We tend to stand out abroad.

Asp:

You're probably right that a lot about Switzelrand would alienate McVeigh, though I'm not sure about the secularism. Wasn't he himself an atheist, or at least pretty non-religious(in any sense besides maybe his own interpretation of the American Civic Religion, so called).

And also, in the first paragraph, did you say that Switzerland has open borders? Because in the second, you say that they have tough immigration laws.
 
Asp:

You're probably right that a lot about Switzelrand would alienate McVeigh, though I'm not sure about the secularism. Wasn't he himself an atheist, or at least pretty non-religious(in any sense besides maybe his own interpretation of the American Civic Religion, so called).

And also, in the first paragraph, did you say that Switzerland has open borders? Because in the second, you say that they have tough immigration laws.

American far-right non religious people are kind of funny in that a lot of them still consider themselves cultural Christians and think of it as heritage they must defend despite not really believing. That goes double if they’re from the heartland. I’ve seen white people from there who overtly say they aren’t religious still get pissed over Starbucks’s red coffee cups. Maybe he wouldn’t find that off putting though, I guess.

They are part of the Schengen Area by treaty despite not being an EU or Eurozone member. However, they come down on illegal immigrants from outside of the EU like the wrath of God.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Eventually the feds get a break. The big problem is people simply cannot keep their mouths shut. Word or at least speculation will get around in the commuity that McVey and Nichols lived in. Eventually someone will talk. There are two words that simply do not go together. Criminal and Mastermind.
I think.itd be like the Atlanta Olympics bomber. Slowly getting on his trail and them on the lamb for a while. MCVEIGH was a pretty good soldier it seems, so catching him in the woods would take a massive manhunt imho
 
I think.itd be like the Atlanta Olympics bomber. Slowly getting on his trail and them on the lamb for a while. MCVEIGH was a pretty good soldier it seems, so catching him in the woods would take a massive manhunt imho

Beyond that he was also a dedicated survivalist and prepper. If he went to ground in the wilderness it would be very, very hard to track him down.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Beyond that he was also a dedicated survivalist and prepper. If he went to ground in the wilderness it would be very, very hard to track him down.
Same with the other guy, he was caught when 2003? Guy was on the lamb for 7 years. Tim Duncan could be gone for that or longer. The oozarks or the rockies are places where people can dissappear . Especially with the tech back then. I bet they would have caught him in the mid 2000s
 
Beyond that he was also a dedicated survivalist and prepper. If he went to ground in the wilderness it would be very, very hard to track him down.

One of my childhood buddies is a former career Special Forces. On a training exercise a couple decades ago his team used a current fugitive suspected to be in their training are as a exercise objective. It took them two days of the four days training time to locate the individual, a former military and survivalist. The LE agency interested in the fugitive to failed to follow up & my friends team had to cease surveillance after four days & head back to the barracks. Their commander at Ft Carson was repeatedly warned by the LE agency and the US Justice Dept the SF team could not detain the fugitive until a decision was made on the legality of such a move. The LE agency did have its own team local LE searching the same area, but in two days they were unable to move any of those in to collect the fugitive before the SF team was ordered back home.
 
One of my childhood buddies is a former career Special Forces. On a training exercise a couple decades ago his team used a current fugitive suspected to be in their training are as a exercise objective. It took them two days of the four days training time to locate the individual, a former military and survivalist. The LE agency interested in the fugitive to failed to follow up & my friends team had to cease surveillance after four days & head back to the barracks. Their commander at Ft Carson was repeatedly warned by the LE agency and the US Justice Dept the SF team could not detain the fugitive until a decision was made on the legality of such a move. The LE agency did have its own team local LE searching the same area, but in two days they were unable to move any of those in to collect the fugitive before the SF team was ordered back home.

Interesting. Were they on military land? It would surprise me if they were and still couldn't arrest him.

McVeigh would be smart enough to not go somewhere military SOF or the military in general regularly exercised, though.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't using US Army Special Forces to arrest that suspect have violated the Posse Comitatus Act?

If he's on a military base or land, then I don't think so. The MPs certainly could, and I think other soldiers would have jurisdictional authority to detain him if he was a known wanted man.
 
Interesting. Were they on military land? It would surprise me if they were and still couldn't arrest him. ...

It was not on a military reservation. Not sure if it was on Federal property , and yes it is legal to train off the reservation. In the Marine Corps Reserves we used local public parks for 'non disruptive training'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't using US Army Special Forces to arrest that suspect have violated the Posse Comitatus Act?

Yes. The military police have jurisdiction on Federal land allocated for military use, and military personal have some specific LE jurisdiction when guarding government property being transported, or say a aircraft crash, & similar. The Marshals Service and Parks Dept or Beureu of Land management have jurisdiction over non military Federal lands. Note that National Guard training grounds and support facilities are not under Federal jurisdiction and state statutes apply there.
 
It was not on a military reservation. Not sure if it was on Federal property , and yes it is legal to train off the reservation. In the Marine Corps Reserves we used local public parks for 'non disruptive training'.

Yes. The military police have jurisdiction on Federal land allocated for military use, and military personal have some specific LE jurisdiction when guarding government property being transported, or say a aircraft crash, & similar. The Marshals Service and Parks Dept or Beureu of Land management have jurisdiction over non military Federal lands. Note that National Guard training grounds and support facilities are not under Federal jurisdiction and state statutes apply there.

Yeah that makes sense if it was on public land, I know NSW does some training in Laguna Recreation Area and such.
 
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