Is it possible for major gas attacks to occur during WWII? Or any type of chemical warfare? I mean this in the military sense so the Holocaust would not count. Can this be used effectively, perhaps as part of a bombing campaign?
Gas attacks in WWII?
- Thread starter MrNumbahOne
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Germany had developed several chemical weapons (including sarin), but it's commonly stated that Hitler didn't want to employ it because he had suffered from a mustard gas attack before and was hence unwilling to use chemical weapons. The Anglo-American/Nazi War has Himmler employing the stuff en masse.
Saphroneth
Banned
Both sides had extensive second-strike capability at different points.
A serious Sealion which looked like succeeding would have resulted in chemical weapons usage (mustard gas) by the brits.
The Nazis had nerve gas in the later states of the war.
But the probable "winners" in terms of second-strike capability are the British. See, anthrax, while technically a biological weapon, acts a lot like a decades-timescale chemical weapon.
And the British had a LOT of anthrax. Biblical quantitties, by the end of the war. I believe it's not much of an exaggeration to say they could have rendered Germany uninhabitable.
Of course, actually getting them used is difficult - hence why I said "second" strike. No-one wanted to be the first.
Or just have Hitler not give a shit. He saw the horrors of WWI but didn't have any problems starting another war. Honestly, it's pretty schizophrenic for him to decide not to use gas.
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Unless you have documentary evidence of such a policy, and a plan to implement it, I cannot believe this.
Hitler, as mad as he was later in the war, didn't use gas to prevent the Soviets overrunning Germany. Even at the end, when he wanted to ensure that Germany would be utterly destroyed in defeat, he didnt order the use of gas. And as far as i know, there is no evidence of significant pressure by his generals (or any other Germans) to do so.
I therefore strongly doubt that the British government, which was certainly not mad, and certainly did care about their citizens, would have used gas, even in the event of successful invasion.
Out of morbid interest, how long would it take for an area that's undergone a tabun or sarin attack to be "safe" for non-protected troops to enter? Could they be used at a tactical level at all?
Wasn't that the plan if things started to go sideways? Operation Vegetarian was the plan to use Anthrax to basically wipe out Germany's livestock and destroy their crop producing ability.
Saphroneth
Banned
Best I can give you is the citation from Wiki.
Alanbrooke, 2001. Entry 22 July 1940.
Wiki:
I don't know what to make of it, really. But they did plan for it. I have to wonder if, when the time actually came, they'd have deferred.
Maybe not.
One factor in Hitler's thinking was that if Germany used gas, the Western Allies would reciprocate.
But let him grow to believe that the Western Allies would refrain from reciprocation as long as he only gassed the Soviets, and you might have something.
First, consider that until very late in the war, the Eastern Front lay in other peoples' countries. So collateral damage is not an issue. Second, consider that Russia was focused down to producing only and exactly what was actually needed for the conflict -- guns, tanks, munitions, Sturmoviks, probably not a lot of leftover capacity for gas protective gear or chemical weapons. Third, Germany tended to be better than the SU at fidgety technical stuff, like protective masks and gas shells. Germany had a better weapon (nerve agent). Germany probably had better ability to organize, plan and coordinate a chemical offensive, until very late in the war.
And Hitler not only considered the Soviets as less than human, he also believed, practically until the end, that the Western Allies would rupture with the Soviets.
IOTL, Hitler never made this decision, even though it must have occurred to him. So we have to rate its likelihood as very low. But I just don't think the probability is zero.
Would it be acceptable to cause a very minor change in his way of thinking to find it practical to use gas?
Wow. So Nazi Germany didn't do it, even when faced with being overrun by the vengeful Soviets.
The British were actually planning to do it even if just invaded.
Interesting moral/ethical questions could be raised.
Yes. Tabun and sarin don't stick around long under most conditions -- 15-30 minutes is often quoted.
To increase persistence, the Soviets "thickened" their later nerve agents, such as soman. But I've never seen any evidence that the Germans developed thickened nerve agents during WW2.
Ah, thanks. This will have nothing to do with future developments in my TL. Ignore the man behind the curtain!
Ah, thanks. This will have nothing to do with future developments in my TL. Ignore the man behind the curtain!
Actually, I've just found one source that claims tabun may stick around 1-2 days, evaporating about 20 times more slowly than water. So if the man behind the curtain wants a tactical usage, he'd better pick sarin. But tabun'd work great on airfields and the like.
He should also note that in the winter, persistence for both is much greater.
Tabun supposedly has a faint fruity odor. It is only about half as lethal as sarin when inhaled (meaning you need a higher dose/concentration to kill), but can be anpbsorbed through the skin. In that case, death may take 1-2 hours.
Sarin is mostly an inhalation hazard (I guess because it evaporates so fast), but is lethal in lower concentrations.
Incidentally, you can find all this on the Internet. A couple hours' research should give you all the level of detail you'd likely need.
Tabun is somewhat persistent, I would not enter a Tabun contaminated area for at least a day. Sarin is much more volatile so few hours might be sufficient to clear the place.
VX is obscenely persistent, it would persist for weeks to a few months.
Bacillus Anthracis resistance is beyond common immagination, for reference see the Wikipedia article about Gruinard Island; after more than 40 years to exposure to elements, only a methodical decontamination effort did manage to render habitable the affected areas. If the Vegetarian had been unleashed on Germany, the Cold War would have been quite different, since vast areas of german territory would act as a biological Maginot between NATO and Warsaw Pact.
VX is obscenely persistent, it would persist for weeks to a few months.
Bacillus Anthracis resistance is beyond common immagination, for reference see the Wikipedia article about Gruinard Island; after more than 40 years to exposure to elements, only a methodical decontamination effort did manage to render habitable the affected areas. If the Vegetarian had been unleashed on Germany, the Cold War would have been quite different, since vast areas of german territory would act as a biological Maginot between NATO and Warsaw Pact.
Saphroneth
Banned
Moral-wise, I'd just point out that they were, indeed, fighting the Nazis. And that they actually expected the Nazis to do it to them at a moment's notice - there's a reason they distributed gas masks to the entire population. And that the Nazis actually did gas millions of people - non combatants.
You know, just in case we've forgotten.
There was also a mustard gas release on Warsaw in 1939 (Germany indicated it was accidental when they owned up in 1942 - not sure whether I should believe them, given that this was the point they were starting up their Final Solution research).
Yes, it was indeed a potential ethical issue. But - it's tricky.
See, the site they were going to be used was on British soil (and not all that near civilians, at that). Does that count?
Probably yes.
Finally, there's the "balance of terror" concept, which probably explains it. Both sides believed that there was chemical weapons parity. (The Germans mistakenly believed the Allies had nerve gas; the Allies had no clue it existed).
'Supposing lodgements were effected on our coast, there could be no better points for application of mustard than these beaches and lodgements. In my view there would be no need to wait for the enemy to adopt such methods. He will certainly adopt them if he thinks it will pay. Home Defence should be consulted as to whether the prompt drenching of lodgements would not be a great help. Everything should be brought to the highest pitch of readiness, but the question of actual employment must be settled by the Cabinet.'
Winston Churchill, June 30, 1940, PRO, WO 193 - 732.
'Within a week, Britain had scraped together her meagre stocks of gas and had them loaded into aircraft spray tanks and bombs at more than twelve RAF bases from Scotland to the South Coast: all were operationally ready to mount a chemical attack by the end of the first week of July.'
Harris, R & Paxman, J, A Higher Form of Killing, p. 111
The RAF squadrons armed with chemical weapons were stationed at Grangemouth, Linton (Yorks), Hatfield, West Mailing, Old Sarum, Lossiemouth, Walton, Wyton, Horsham St Faith, Oakington, Benbrook and Newton. (PRO, WO 193/732.) During the January 1941 'Victor' exercise against a theoretical German invasion, (PRO, WO 193/732) the War Cabinet approved the use of Mustard Gas delivered by spray tanks loaded onto Lysander, Blenheim, Battle and Wellington bombers.