Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[stevep]

Glen

The map reminded me of a number of things in the TL but a couple of questions:
a) Is that an Austria super-Morocco? That looks rather odd and how did it survive the war?

b) Afghanistan was mentioned but wasn't it a mega-Sikh state or am I remembering another TL?

Like the idea of progress with dominion status for India that much earlier. Although the status of the princely states will be interesting, plus does it include Burma and Ceylon? Australia is presumably slower in development because with the DSA and Patagonia and a larger S Africa its probably got less settlers, even despite the gold rush.

On the welfare state OTL the 1st steps really started ~1910 with the introduction of a state pension, although think it was only if enough contributions had been made at the time. There was pressure for further social reform after WWI, with all the plans for 'a land fit for heroes' but between the reaction against the horrors of the war 'getting back to normal', the decline of the Liberals and the economic situation most of that came to nothing. Possibly this time, since the war wasn't as destructive overall I think there is more will to improve the general interest in social welfare and the quality of the population. [After all this is the height of social Darwinism]. However the economy is generally strong I think so it might stay more libertarian and as you said there would be a reaction against Korsgaardian ideas.

Indeed it is not - then again, it is very hard to out-do the Britwank that is OTL.

- Utter rubbish, there are still areas not pink!

Steve

 

[stevep]

And it has much of that ITTL as well, though socially as well without the Victorianism.

How so?

Yes - income tax develops in the 19th century in the UK along fairly similar lines to OTL.

Time will tell whether and how much they will end up diverging and clashing (the DSA and UK).

twovultures

That depends very much on the circumstances. After all from about 1840 for a century Britain was pretty much the ultimate libertarian state, far more than about anywhere else. Much to our downfall. Still likely to have a stronger central government in the UK and probably an income tax by now as its such a useful way of raising money. However definitely going to be some cultural clashes with the DSA. However this time its going to be the dominion that is more libertarian, rather than the UK as OTL.

Steve

Glen

I'm very much to the view that Britain, to use a phase, 'rested at the oars' too much from ~1815 onwards, especially with the opposition for just about any state intervention. The latter was very important in the development of British power, at the same time avoiding the excesses of some of the continental autocracies.

However in the 19thC while Britain rested on its laurels and relied on the market to do all the work other countries worked hard to improve their position. Not just protectionism to allow industries to develop or direct investment in important industries. Possibly the largest single factor in Britain's decline OTL was the very laggardly way they went about reforming education, which still seems markedly worse than many of our western rivals. Partly this was an internal religious clash which, I can't remember but may not have happened TTL.

On the 2nd point highlighted the UK and DSA will definitely diverge but clashes are by no means certain. At least serious ones causing major rifts in the relationship between the two.

Steve

 

[Julius Vogel]

I have totally lost track of this TL and so am re-reading it, currently at about page 120 or so. It is rather an odd experience, as I seem to have been a regular contributor to the thread at the time, so reading my posts has been interesting, as I do not remember making them!

It is still an enjoyable read though, so I look forward to being caught up

 

[Cylon_Number_14]

Glen

The map reminded me of a number of things in the TL but a couple of questions:
a) Is that an Austria super-Morrocco?

Steve

They're not exactly the same colors I think ( hard to see on my phone) but I remember this: super Morrocco is protected by the USA but not a protectorate. OTL Morrocco is the first country to sign a friendship treaty with the USA, and here a later king asked for stronger ties when the resurgent Ottomans and French began making eyes. The gentle giant that is the USA ITTL basically said "*shrug* Sure, why not?"

If you zoom in on the map you can see the faint USA-teal outline.

 

[Glen]

Who controls Rangoon/Yangon? It looks like it is part of India and that India and Siam border on the seacoast and that alt-Burma/Myanmar is land locked.

Yep.

Also, is there any dislike in the Western Nations like Britain, France, and the DSA for the USA Government that chose not to join them? i.e. if you Yankees had gotten off your butts we would have had a million less casualties...

Not really. Between the Entente friendly policies of Poe and the large numbers of American volunteers who fought for the Entente, they are generally well thought of by the West.

The ability of the USA to sell to *only* one side in the Global war was worse than it was in OTL WWI, I think.

Maybe, I would have to review.

 

[stevep]

They're not exactly the same colors I think ( hard to see on my phone) but I remember this: super Morrocco is protected by the USA but not a protectorate. OTL Morrocco is the first country to sign a friendship treaty with the USA, and here a later king asked for stronger ties when the resurgent Ottomans and French began making eyes. The gentle giant that is the USA ITTL basically said "*shrug* Sure, why not?"

If you zoom in on the map you can see the faint USA-teal outline.

Cylon_Number_14

Ok thanks for clarifying.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Glen

The map reminded me of a number of things in the TL but a couple of questions:
a) Is that an Austria super-Morocco? That looks rather odd and how did it survive the war?

Cylon_Number_14

Ok thanks for clarifying.

Steve

Quite.

b) Afghanistan was mentioned but wasn't it a mega-Sikh state or am I remembering another TL?

Another timeline I think. This one is not Sikh.

Like the idea of progress with dominion status for India that much earlier. Although the status of the princely states will be interesting,

Yes, it should prove interesting.

plus does it include Burma and Ceylon?

Some of Burma, but Ceylon belongs to the Begians.

Australia is presumably slower in development because with the DSA and Patagonia and a larger S Africa its probably got less settlers, even despite the gold rush.

Correct.

On the welfare state OTL the 1st steps really started ~1910 with the introduction of a state pension, although think it was only if enough contributions had been made at the time. There was pressure for further social reform after WWI, with all the plans for 'a land fit for heroes' but between the reaction against the horrors of the war 'getting back to normal', the decline of the Liberals and the economic situation most of that came to nothing.

Good to know.

Possibly this time, since the war wasn't as destructive overall I think

Correct.

there is more will to improve the general interest in social welfare and the quality of the population.

True.

[After all this is the height of social Darwinism

Not ITTL, though. No one ever came up with the idea of social Darwinism.

However the economy is generally strong I think so it might stay more libertarian and as you said there would be a reaction against Korsgaardian ideas.

Indeed.

- Utter rubbish, there are still areas not pink!

Steve

Well, a fair point....

 

[Glen]

Glen

I'm very much to the view that Britain, to use a phase, 'rested at the oars' too much from ~1815 onwards, especially with the opposition for just about any state intervention. The latter was very important in the development of British power, at the same time avoiding the excesses of some of the continental autocracies.

And other than protectionism and better education (see below), what have you in mind?

However in the 19thC while Britain rested on its laurels and relied on the market to do all the work other countries worked hard to improve their position. Not just protectionism to allow industries to develop or direct investment in important industries.

Well, there may be a bit more of the government helping ITTl, though whether it will be enough to make a sizable difference...

Possibly the largest single factor in Britain's decline OTL was the very laggardly way they went about reforming education, which still seems markedly worse than many of our western rivals. Partly this was an internal religious clash which, I can't remember but may not have happened TTL.

Ah, well, yes, that is something that could be worked upon I would think, and likely has developed differently ITTL.

On the 2nd point highlighted the UK and DSA will definitely diverge but clashes are by no means certain. At least serious ones causing major rifts in the relationship between the two.

Steve

Fair, quite fair.

 

[Glen]

I have totally lost track of this TL and so am re-reading it, currently at about page 120 or so. It is rather an odd experience, as I seem to have been a regular contributor to the thread at the time, so reading my posts has been interesting, as I do not remember making them!

It is still an enjoyable read though, so I look forward to being caught up

Well, if you are enjoying yourself, have at it, but you do know that there is a complete version available without all the comments in Finished Timelines that will read a bit faster I imagine.

 

[Glen]

The 1900s saw the rise in many nations of 'Malthusian Clubs'. The Malthusians were frightfully concerned about the impending population bust should reproduction go on unchecked. The Malthusians started off promoting education and even resources for contraception and even voluntary sterilization for those who had had all the children they wished. It was through their philanthropy that vasectomies became a widespread surgical procedure available in most of the civilized world. However, the clubs quickly adopted hospices as a cause. While hospices had been around since the Crusades, they were few and far between, often based out of religious orders. The support of the Malthusian Clubs saw a growth spurt of these organizations, helping to support 'a good death' at the same time as they were trying to keep life from overgrowing its means. The Malthusian Clubs saw their greatest popularity in Europe and Asia, though some smaller following was seen in the Western Hemisphere as well.

 

[stevep]

And other than protectionism and better education (see below), what have you in mind?

Glen

Protectionism in terms of balance with foreign rivals. I.e. willingness to reduce tariffs in parallel with other nations/groups doing likewise. Britain made a rod for its own back, having tried free trade, to stick with it when other powers stayed strongly protectionist.

Better education and a basic view of what does the country need being more than restricting government and taxes to an absolute minimum. Of course different groups will argue for different policies but if there's some actual considering of an approach other than let the market decide it all.

By better education I include both more concern with technical education but most of all encompassing the bulk of the population rather than a full education being just for a privileged elite who also expect to run the country without opposition. Basically to steal a quote, 'government by and for the people as well as of the people'.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Glen

Protectionism in terms of balance with foreign rivals. I.e. willingness to reduce tariffs in parallel with other nations/groups doing likewise. Britain made a rod for its own back, having tried free trade, to stick with it when other powers stayed strongly protectionist.

Ah, I read you!

Better education and a basic view of what does the country need being more than restricting government and taxes to an absolute minimum. Of course different groups will argue for different policies but if there's some actual considering of an approach other than let the market decide it all.

Fair enough.

By better education I include both more concern with technical education but most of all encompassing the bulk of the population rather than a full education being just for a privileged elite who also expect to run the country without opposition. Basically to steal a quote, 'government by and for the people as well as of the people'.

Steve

Again, fair enough. It will have to wait for a few updates to see how it will pan out....

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

interesting, health is rolling along I see.

Please do post it for our review!

it's attached. sorry if i was too presumptuous

At this stage in history? Entirely Southron enterprises.

ah, thank you.

And you may very well be right, but could you elaborate on your own thoughts on this point.

admittedly, my reasons aren't terribly strong, mostly I just don't like virginia. more practically, I would say that it's too swampy and steamy, and resistant to urban buildup. additionally, the terrain isn't terribly varied there, and, I at least get the impression that studios want to set up in a place where they can take advantage of diverse terrain to represent a variety of locations.

though, if the film people did set up in virginia, and based themselves in alexandria, that might form the missing link between richmond and the rest of the east coast cities that people have been looking for.

Indeed - and what makes Vancouver so good as an ATL Hollywood?

I'm not really sure, that was mostly based on the fact that it's a hub of the film industry in OTL, which suggests that it must have something going for it.

So what makes you mention it?

(the rogue river area) not much really, I was just trying to think of places that had nice weather most or all of the year, and a lot of choice as far as scenery goes. that part of oregon does see plenty of rain, but less than they get further north, and very few days with snow on the ground, like I said, it is suited somewhat to year round agriculture. there's pine forests all around, and mountains nearby (they're not the rockies, but they'll do). to the south there's truly spectacular forests, and east of the valley there's prarie, and some rugged, badland-esque formations, plus there's the seacoast nearby as well.

A thought, but would we worry too much about fog?

the fog is an issue, if you're shooting outdoors in the city yes, but I named san fransisco more because of the combination of relatively pleasant weather and varied terrain types close by. they've got deserts, mountains, forests, and beautiful seashore all very close by. additionally, the city is already important, so early studios wouldn't have to worry about building their own supply chain as they would if they were setting up somewhere completely new.

Indeed? That would make it the pre-eminent industry in Schulze, wouldn't it!

well, it certainly has the potential to be bigger than anything else there.

That is a possibility as well. Time will tell.

as with everything wait and see, yes indeed.

*******

while I'm thinking of places in this USA that get lots of sunshine and possess varied local geography, I really have to mention the northern four corners region (that really is praiseworthy, you've created not just four but eight corners, bravo), right in that area you've got deserts and redrock country, and scrubland, and rugged rocks, and the rockies, and alpine forests, and glaciers, and plains, hell, you can even use the great salt lake to stand in for the ocean if you're desperate. all of that about two days drive or less away would seem to recommend the area. the adams portion of the region would probably be the easiest access-wise, as you don't have to go over the continental divide to reach any of what I listed, though the best red rocks are on the west side.

I think I'm done going blue in the face now .

 

[stevep]

Ah, I read you!



Fair enough.



Again, fair enough. It will have to wait for a few updates to see how it will pan out....

Glen

Well I was talking more about what I desire/think would be best in OTL [or today to a degree] rather than what I'm expecting in TTL Britain but love to see how things develop.

Steve

 

[Glen]

interesting, health is rolling along I see.

Indeed.

it's attached. sorry if i was too presumptuous

Naw, its a much nicer shade of pink.

ah, thank you.

De nada.

admittedly, my reasons aren't terribly strong, mostly I just don't like virginia. more practically, I would say that it's too swampy and steamy, and resistant to urban buildup. additionally, the terrain isn't terribly varied there, and, I at least get the impression that studios want to set up in a place where they can take advantage of diverse terrain to represent a variety of locations.

Thanks for your thoughts.

though, if the film people did set up in virginia, and based themselves in alexandria, that might form the missing link between richmond and the rest of the east coast cities that people have been looking for.

True.

I'm not really sure, that was mostly based on the fact that it's a hub of the film industry in OTL, which suggests that it must have something going for it.

Yes, but only at a much later date. The question is what would be the first areas to develop and what factors determine it.

(the rogue river area) not much really, I was just trying to think of places that had nice weather most or all of the year, and a lot of choice as far as scenery goes.

Which are true points.

that part of oregon does see plenty of rain, but less than they get further north, and very few days with snow on the ground, like I said, it is suited somewhat to year round agriculture. there's pine forests all around, and mountains nearby (they're not the rockies, but they'll do). to the south there's truly spectacular forests, and east of the valley there's prarie, and some rugged, badland-esque formations, plus there's the seacoast nearby as well.

Good to know.

the fog is an issue, if you're shooting outdoors in the city yes, but I named san fransisco more because of the combination of relatively pleasant weather and varied terrain types close by. they've got deserts, mountains, forests, and beautiful seashore all very close by. additionally, the city is already important, so early studios wouldn't have to worry about building their own supply chain as they would if they were setting up somewhere completely new.

All very true - so why didn't it become the center for the film industry on the West Coast IOTL?

well, it certainly has the potential to be bigger than anything else there.

True dat!

as with everything wait and see, yes indeed.

*******

Yep, pretty much.

while I'm thinking of places in this USA that get lots of sunshine and possess varied local geography, I really have to mention the northern four corners region (that really is praiseworthy, you've created not just four but eight corners, bravo),

Glad you like it!

right in that area you've got deserts and redrock country, and scrubland, and rugged rocks, and the rockies, and alpine forests, and glaciers, and plains, hell, you can even use the great salt lake to stand in for the ocean if you're desperate. all of that about two days drive or less away would seem to recommend the area. the adams portion of the region would probably be the easiest access-wise, as you don't have to go over the continental divide to reach any of what I listed, though the best red rocks are on the west side.

A good point.

I think I'm done going blue in the face now .

Then catch your breath, my friend!

 

[Glen]

Glen

Well I was talking more about what I desire/think would be best in OTL [or today to a degree] rather than what I'm expecting in TTL Britain but love to see how things develop.

Steve

Fair enough, and I will take all of that in the spirit in which it was offered.

 

[Geordie]

Caught up with the last few updates, and it's looking as good as ever.

I particularly like "icewing" as TTL's nomenclature for heavier-than-air flying machines.

Having never visited TTL's USA - the one childhood trip across the Atlantic I did make would all be in the DSA in this TL - I can't contribute much about alternate Hollywood locations. On the other hand, it would be intersting to see if Southron Kinee makes greater use of myths, legends and history from the whole empire. Some Indian inspired kinee, even if the hero comes from New Orleans or somewhere similar, could be very interesting. I also like the fact that "talkies" seem to develop sooner than in OTL, so the reign of the silent movie star is much shorter (if I read it correctly).

Looking at the map, I had a thought: If you have covered this, I apologise, but are there any calls in London for a Gambia - Nairobi railway? As soon as I saw that map, I saw headlines screaming of the need for a Cape-Kenya railway, the Cape in question being Cape Vert. I know the terrain would be rather woeful, but Rhodes and Co's OTL infrastructure dream wasn't exactly in easy country...

 

[Glen]

Caught up with the last few updates, and it's looking as good as ever.

Thank you.

I particularly like "icewing" as TTL's nomenclature for heavier-than-air flying machines.

It's fun, isn't it?

Having never visited TTL's USA - the one childhood trip across the Atlantic I did make would all be in the DSA in this TL - I can't contribute much about alternate Hollywood locations. On the other hand, it would be intersting to see if Southron Kinee makes greater use of myths, legends and history from the whole empire.

Oh, I think that might happen....

Some Indian inspired kinee, even if the hero comes from New Orleans or somewhere similar, could be very interesting.

Indeed, it could be. However, there may be some hiccups in the early days given racism. It does exist still, unfortunately.

I also like the fact that "talkies" seem to develop sooner than in OTL, so the reign of the silent movie star is much shorter (if I read it correctly).

Actually, there never is a silent movie star. The sound develops in parallel to the pictures. There's plenty of complaints about timing problems between kinetograph and phonograph recordings for the kinees, but it is still considered superior to having no sound, at least ITTL. And the techology will get better and new ones will occur as well...

Looking at the map, I had a thought: If you have covered this, I apologise, but are there any calls in London for a Gambia - Nairobi railway? As soon as I saw that map, I saw headlines screaming of the need for a Cape-Kenya railway, the Cape in question being Cape Vert. I know the terrain would be rather woeful, but Rhodes and Co's OTL infrastructure dream wasn't exactly in easy country...

Oh yes, that is a very good point, and indeed a railroad as yet another route between the Atlantic and the Indian is precisely why that territory is there.

 

[Geordie]

It's fun, isn't it?

It's one of the best *alt-names I've come across...

Indeed, it could be. However, there may be some hiccups in the early days given racism. It does exist still, unfortunately.

Understandable. Disappointing, but understandable nonetheless.

Actually, there never is a silent movie star. The sound develops in parallel to the pictures. There's plenty of complaints about timing problems between kinetograph and phonograph recordings for the kinees, but it is still considered superior to having no sound, at least ITTL. And the technology will get better and new ones will occur as well...

I wasn't sure whther there was a short period of silent first, hence my odd wording, but I thought you might have had instant sound. Again, I like the fact that this is another believable divergence from OTL, when it would have been easier for you to simply replicate it.

 

[Glen]

It's one of the best *alt-names I've come across...

Thanks!

Understandable. Disappointing, but understandable nonetheless.

But give it time!

I wasn't sure whther there was a short period of silent first, hence my odd wording, but I thought you might have had instant sound. Again, I like the fact that this is another believable divergence from OTL, when it would have been easier for you to simply replicate it.

Thanks, that's what I've been going for. Actually, a lot of the parallelism ITTL comes from the internal logic of the timeline as opposed to just replicating OTL events.