Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Glen

Moderator
very interesting to see some growth out in my neck of the woods. interesting names, though it seems that the jeffersonian designation is following me, I used to live in OTL's "jefferson state" area.

Ah, so that is YOUR fault!;)

and, like everyone else, I must compliment you on how those western states look like eastern states.

Thank you - I was going for a more organic and landmark respectful aesthetic. Your praise sounds like I have hit the target!

this conversation on schulze is very stimulating, what's most shocking to me is that I only just now noticed that the map you're using has lake powell on it :eek:.

Yeah, I see it, just imagine it is a mirage!

as to population and population centers, it is bound to be one empty mother of a state, but very pretty nonetheless, it does contain most of utah's national parks.

I imagine that it will attract a lot of 'true America pioneer' types who want beautiful vistas, and to not have a lot of neighbors.

and, except for situations like juniper, where a place is particularly suited to having a city on it, I don't see why most of the state's towns would be in the same places or have the same names, the same goes for jefferson. practically every settlement in this region has mormonism somewhere behind its creation. st george, las vegas and ely, are supposed to have begun as mormon settlements,

Absolutely!

and they probably woudn't be there if not for the church's direction.

Yes and no - while the Latter Day Saints may have been dictating the original settlement plan OTL, the ones that lasted lasted for a reason, and we might yet see some of them having analogues, but it is sort of overlapping with your first point about places that have a natural reason for existing.

salt lake as well, without brigham young saying there needed to be a city here, the salt lake valley is probably farmland with a copper mining town on one edge, there's probably a town bulit around the silver in *park city, and there's liable to be an important settlement in the cache valley, north of salt lake, it's an old crossroads and meeting place from probably before europeans first entered the region.

Yes, quite so.
 

Glen

Moderator
Given the experience gained with lighter-than-air flight in the latter part of the 19th century, it was thought that heavier-than-air flight would soon be achieved as well. However, it would turn out that the experiences were not entirely transferable and would lead to several false starts. For example, the typical configuration for the propellers on air whales was in the back of the craft, pushing the vehicle forward. This proved problematic in that the heavier-than-air vehicles could not afford the drag that often accompanied the rigging to make such a configuration work (this was much less of an issue compared to the large air bag in lighter-than-air craft). Another was the attempt to adopt steam engines as power sources. While some of the lightest and most compact steam engines were used for air whales, they were still too much weight and bulk for the needs of early heavier-than-air craft. It was only with the post-Global War innovation of the internal combustion engine (ICE) that an engine could be created that was compact enough and light enough to power a heavier-than-air craft for sustained powered flight. Therefore the earliest successful models all had ICE and a forward mounted propeller. Given the fixed wing designs that were used for these craft, they soon came to be known as icewings. The first successful sustained flight of an icewing was in 1903 by Briton Callum Sturdivant. His company, Sturdivant Air Company (SAC), would go on to produce several models of Sturdivant Icewings in the first half of the twentieth century.

Callum Sturdivant during an exhibition flight in New York

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Glen

Been away for a week but great to see TTL active again.:D Is that Ice-wing;) something like a 6 wings a side or are they struts and the wings at an angle?

I probably asked this before but what is required for assimilation for the native Americans and has it changed over time? As someone else said I would have thought there would be growing opposition to them being forced to transport to the frozen north of Hudson's Bay to be able to maintain their own culture rather than living in their historical lands. It depends on what's meant by 'culture' but does seem rather harsh.

Steve
 

Glen

Moderator
Glen

Been away for a week but great to see TTL active again.:D

Thanks, Steve. Good to be back!

Is that Ice-wing;) something like a 6 wings a side or are they struts and the wings at an angle?

Struts and wings at an angle - has two rows of wings.

I probably asked this before but what is required for assimilation for the native Americans and has it changed over time? As someone else said I would have thought there would be growing opposition to them being forced to transport to the frozen north of Hudson's Bay to be able to maintain their own culture rather than living in their historical lands. It depends on what's meant by 'culture' but does seem rather harsh.

Steve

Basically the natives have to accept Federal law and US citizenship. They have the same rights and responsibilities as other US citizens. They can lodge claims onto lands, but have to do some level of improvements to the land in short order or risk losing title. That's about it.

There's actually four options - accept assimilation as US citizens and live by US law, move on to areas not yet under US control, accept peaceful removal to the Hudson territory where the US government leaves them alone, or refuse to recognize the US and refuse to move and be forcibly removed to the Hudson. In reality, by the dawn of the 20th century, word has already gotten out about the failure rate of beating the US Legion (battles, sure, but the natives never win the wars), and most natives either take the first two choices, with a small number of fundamentalists taking the third option, and very few try for the fourth option. What is not depicted is that a lot of the northern tribes moved themselves to the north well before the Legion got there, seeing the writing on the wall. More on what happened to those who did move to the Hudson in later installments.
 
I probably asked this before but what is required for assimilation for the native Americans and has it changed over time? As someone else said I would have thought there would be growing opposition to them being forced to transport to the frozen north of Hudson's Bay to be able to maintain their own culture rather than living in their historical lands. It depends on what's meant by 'culture' but does seem rather harsh.

Steve

there might be some calls for a more repecyful treatment of the native americans, but, do remember that this is only the very beginning of the 20th century, even if TTL is more progressive than ours, race relations aren't going to be what we would call civilized for decades still. unfortunately, most americans at this point would probably say that they were "doing the redskins a favor" by making them assimiliate.
 

Glen

Moderator
The Greater and Lesser Australias continued their gradual but upward growth throughout the 19th century. The French colonies languished somewhat but continued to attract settlers from France. The British Australias grew a bit faster, but not nearly as rapid as Britain's other colonies and especially her Dominion of Southern America. However, by the last quarter of the 19th century her growth was enough to warrant further divisions of territory, with the borders of New South Wales being contracted to cover the majority of the well populated lands east and south of the Bahwan River (the name coming from the Nagiyamba tongue) and north of Elizabeth. All the lands west and south of the Bahwan up to the border with French Greater Australia were christened with the new name of Cook in honor of the explorer's prominence in the early exploration of Australia. The rest of the territory of British Greater Australia were granted the utterly obvious name of The Northern Territory, and remained administered by New South Wales, despite the growing coastal population just to the north of the new border with New South Wales. However, given the continued unrest at times with the natives of Australia in the North, it was considered more prudent. By 1910 British Greater and Lesser Australias were combined as a new federated Dominion of the British Empire.

Australias 1910.png
 

Glen

Moderator
there might be some calls for a more repecyful treatment of the native americans, but, do remember that this is only the very beginning of the 20th century, even if TTL is more progressive than ours, race relations aren't going to be what we would call civilized for decades still. unfortunately, most americans at this point would probably say that they were "doing the redskins a favor" by making them assimiliate.

I fear that W.W.A.F.T. is quite right on this. This is better than the treatment of OTL, but worse than what a modern perspective might wish for.
 

Glen

Moderator
It is not an over-exaggeration that the debate over an American Income Tax was not resolved for over half a century. Several Federalist administrations had argued for an income tax to help subsidize infrastructure projects since the mid 1800s. Democrats had, by-and-large, opposed these on the grounds of it being another government intrusion into the individual citizen's life. Therefore, it is not that surprising that a corporate tax on companies and other non-human legal persons passed first, in the first flush of the debate. Corporate taxes were not seen as an intrusion into the individual's life by the Democrats, and thus were a reasonable compromise. Of course, the problem with this is that companies almost from the first blush of the new tax started to pass on all income in the form of employee income and shareholder dividends so that there was very little profit, on paper at least, to be taxed. Therefore the debate raged from Congress to Congress.

One of the main problems, other than those who were opposed to any income tax at all on principle (generally Democrats) were the many diverging and sometimes contradictory views on what would be fair and practical to implement. The rare congressman who favored a per head tax were not the problem, as most everyone agreed that such a program would be essentially regressive in nature and impractical as it be unpayable by poorer citizens of the United States. However, there were not many in favor of a highly progressive tax, even in the Federalist camp, as many of the wealthiest industrialists were supporters of the Federalist party, as well as striking many as wrong to tax a man more on a dollar just because he had made more before that, not to mention some of the more radical Federalists suggested even giving negative taxes or stipends to the poor instead of taxes to bring up their level of income. However, by the Poe administration, a front-runner emerged in the form of a single per head deduction prior to taxation of the remainder at a flat rate. This would fulfil fairness in the sense that every citizen would get the same deduction, and every dollar made after that deduction would be taxed at the same rate, or so it was said. It still was in essence a heavily simplified progressive tax. The debate in the waning days of the Poe era was whether to place the deduction equal to the poverty line, equal to the median income for the middle class, or somewhere in between. It was recognized that the tax might act as a break on wealth generation at the point it was placed, and thus the concern with placing it at or anywhere near the poverty line as keeping people from rising by their own toil to the middle class. The counter proposal was that placing it as high as median middle class income would mean that a large percentage of the population of the USA would pay no taxes, and possibly create a dual class system of taxpayers and non-taxpayers. By the end of the Poe Administration, the US had clearly clawed its way out of the worst of the long depression, and it seemed likely that Poe would get the income tax passed through Congress (he had been the only president in history to have a gain in his party's represenation in Congress in his second midterm election), and so a deal was struck with the most centralist of the Democrats for accepting the median income level deduction to minimize the number of citizens who would have to pay (and to soak some of the richer members of the Federalist Party as this then would require a higher percentage tax to offset the losses). The corporate taxes were amended to allow for the deduction of payroll from their rate to avoid double taxation. Additionally, it was decided that the income tax would be applied to all US citizens and resident aliens, given concerns over the possibility of US citizens moving across the border to the DSA, which made enough off of taxes on cotton and sugar (and later, oil) to avoid the need for an income tax. The Income Tax Law was one of the last pieces of legislation signed into law by President Poe.

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Glen

Moderator
Man, Poe's been a busy busy man.

The nation was desperate for effective leadership, and he provided it, at a time when people wanted to see things get done.

Nice updates, Glen (I especially like "Icewing" instead of OTL's airplane)!

Thanks, I thought it made for some nice alternate terminology as well.:)
 
So, TTL's Progressive Era starting already? :)

Considering women have had the right to vote for decades already, there's not much of a progressive "era" in this USA so much as steady incremental change always ahead of the curve of OTL's nation. It's been said before that this TL is a kind of worldwide "Liberalism-Wank," and not just the Adam Smith side, but the John Stuart Mill side too.
 

Glen

Moderator
Considering women have had the right to vote for decades already, there's not much of a progressive "era" in this USA so much as steady incremental change always ahead of the curve of OTL's nation. It's been said before that this TL is a kind of worldwide "Liberalism-Wank," and not just the Adam Smith side, but the John Stuart Mill side too.

That's actually quite true.
 
Interesting how the DSA does not have an income tax so far. It would be interesting to see a clash between DSA economic libertarianism and UK 'nanny-statism', assuming that develops as per OTL.
 

Glen

Moderator
Interesting how the DSA does not have an income tax so far. It would be interesting to see a clash between DSA economic libertarianism and UK 'nanny-statism', assuming that develops as per OTL.

Yes, such a contrast might be of interest....
 
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