Protect and Survive: A Timeline

Bernard Woolley

Some of the comments on that first link are priceless. Evidently lots of people haven't realised that A) it was built on the cheap in an existing structure and B) by the mid '60s the Soviets knew where it was so anyone inside had pretty much the same chance of surviving as anyone outside, in some ways probably less than some on the outside. :p

To be serious I'd also add that post disaster having no government is hardly a good thing and realistically in somewhere like the UK protecting the majority of the population is impossible.
 

MrChief

JN1 said:
Some of the comments on that first link are priceless. Evidently lots of people haven't realised that A) it was built on the cheap in an existing structure and B) by the mid '60s the Soviets knew where it was so anyone inside had pretty much the same chance of surviving as anyone outside, in some ways probably less than some on the outside. :p

To be serious I'd also add that post disaster having no government is hardly a good thing and realistically in somewhere like the UK protecting the majority of the population is impossible.
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However in this TL the Soviet 5mt missile designed to take out the bunker missed, hence the fact thet Willie Whitelaw is very much alive. Although I do agree that it would not have survived a direct hit.

I did think, however that some people may find the pictures of the nations secret nuclear bunker interesting in the context of the TL, ironically not that hard for people to find, shocked that it took the Russians so long to find out :D

secret_nuclear_bunker.jpg
 

Bernard Woolley

There is probably only one bunker in the world that might survive a 5MT hit. Corsham would was reckoned to be vulnerable to a 3MT near miss.

I do love all the 'Secret Bunker this way' signs that have sproted across the country in the post-Cold War period. It is almost as good as the MOD sign that effectivley says that this place is so secret we thought we'd better tell you about it in case you didn't know (the 'This is a Prohibited Place Under the meaning of the Official Secrets Act etc). :D
 

Bernard Woolley

That's the one.
Apparently it was Target Number One for America's strategic forces once they became aware of it. Yamantu would be hit and hit again until it was destroyed.
 

Matt Wiser

There may have been only one weapon that could take that target out: the W-53 warhead on the Titan-II, or the gravity bomb equivalent: the B-53 carried by the B-52. Yield 9-10 MT.

Then there's the Volga Command Post at Zhiguli, near Kubyshev-which would also be a magnet for a few high-yield weapons.
 

ivfl

One question?If everybody knows where the secret bunkers are what's the point of having them in the first place?Wouldn't it be easier to send the leaders on a country road or something and wait it out?The odds of actually being hit in the middle of nowhere are small.:D
 

RandomChance

With respect to the UK, in a massive nuclear attack, defining 'the middle of nowhere' is a tad tricky. Not to mention being outside is not recommended due to fallout.

This is where the American airborne command post idea has some merit.
 

Genmotty

With respect to the UK, in a massive nuclear attack, defining 'the middle of nowhere' is a tad tricky. Not to mention being outside is not recommended due to fallout.
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Somewhat agreed, then not agreed at all. People forget that nations are big places in terms of area, and hardly ever look at totallying up a number of 'blast zones' and doing a ratio with comparison to the nations size.

Lets assume we drop N weapons, of 20Mt each, each bomb has a blast radius of 13mi where we can consider 'widespread damage' to occur. This is not total devistation, I am over estimating blast effects by a large factor for the sake of illustration.

We have 530sqmi per bomb of terrain affected. The UK has a size of 94,060sqmi

So thus you have a % of affected UK nation formula of;

% = 0.56N


For the record; 20Mt weapons are not going to be raining down in massive numbers. But one could look at this as a 'worst case senario'.

However it also allows us to calculate the likely probability for 'random survival' (not a good idea to assume randomness however since weapons are targeted). Which would be;

(1-N/177)^N

Plug in what numbers you want; If I take 20nukes, that's a 9% Survival chance if I 'don't run' and just stay still. Of course nukes being targeted means this isn't the forgone conclusion, running to the middle of the Yorkshire Dales would very much increase your chances of survival.

Fallout is no worry at all for anybody with a modicum of protection. Even a paper bag will save you from contact with fallout.

Therefore a truck in the middle of the countryside, so long as its not got a fan pumping air from the outside in, will be perfectly enough to protect you.

If you want, I'll even calculate the fraction of radiation that can make it inside a camper van if it will make you happy. Fallout is by far the least of anybodies concerns so long as your considered it and planned for it. It's just unfortunate that people have be predisposed by the media to fear radiation like the boogey man in the cupboard.
 

Bernard Woolley

ivfl said:
One question?If everybody knows where the secret bunkers are what's the point of having them in the first place?Wouldn't it be easier to send the leaders on a country road or something and wait it out?The odds of actually being hit in the middle of nowhere are small.:D
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When the bunkers were built ICBMs were not all that accurate and when bombers were the primary delivery method they could be shot down. A bunker will always provide more protection against the effects of a nuclear weapon than being outside.
In the UK the bunkers were used more for their protection against fall-out than blast and it was always recognised that some would be lost in a Soviet strike. We always expected to lose some of our leadership, which is why we eventually went for the PYTHON dispersal concept.
As others say there isn't really a middle of nowhere in the UK and once you send leadership to somewhere is stops being the 'middle of nowhere'.
In a worst case scenario in which all bunkers on land are lost the PYTHON groups aboard HMY Britannia and RFA Engadine would survive.
 

Rumblefish

This forum appeared in the referrer for my site so naturally I investigated and joined to do a full search, no matter, no matches.

I went into the test post forum and found this thread recommended, 149 pages read in two days.

Born in 65' I'm totally hooked now. Thank you so much for this TL.

I remember waking in the late 70's and early 80's hearing the sirens being tested on a Sunday morning, I would probably have survived and to what?

Keep it going.
 
modelcitizen

modelcitizen

Genmotty said:
Therefore a truck in the middle of the countryside, so long as its not got a fan pumping air from the outside in, will be perfectly enough to protect you.
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When I lived within a few miles of a nuclear power plant, I received a free calendar from them including useful info on how to respond to emergencies, etc.

They recommended that those driving to safety should not use the car's HVAC to keep radiation out.
 

Archangel

Unless the Russian General can be convinced to surrender his troops in exchange for a general amnesty of sorts, there will be a communist statelet around Munich for some time.

Keep up the good work, Macragge!:)
 

Genmotty

hugh lupus said:
Yes I remember the sirens ours was outside the local pub
I can see it all now
'Last orders now gentleman'
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...And if you wish ladies and gents there's a beer cellar down below, if anybody wants to join me there to open a fresh cask...?


*5 Hours later*

...Uggh my head, sh*t what happened last night? It's like the end of the world or somethin' happened.
 

rcduggan

So I was re-reading the beginning of this masterpiece, specifically Chapter V, and on a whim I googled the "doomsday letter" to see if there actually was something similar in OTL. What I found looks a lot like someone tried to plagiarize Macragge1: see for yourself here, this is kind of weird... I am honestly not sure what to make of it.
 

Macragge1

Banned
rcduggan said:
So I was re-reading the beginning of this masterpiece, specifically Chapter V, and on a whim I googled the "doomsday letter" to see if there actually was something similar in OTL. What I found looks a lot like someone tried to plagiarize Macragge1: see for yourself here, this is kind of weird... I am honestly not sure what to make of it.
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A great(?) find, rcduggan. It's pretty clear that it's copy and paste plagiarism with a few names changed and a few more spelling mistakes. Thanks for bringing it to my attention; I'm honestly not sure what to make of it either.

EDIT: The doomsday letters were real, as it goes; thanks also for the compliment.
 

Bernard Woolley

Wow, that's really weird. It has to have been done by someone who is a member here because AFAIK you can't get access to this forum if you are not a member (or am I wrong about that?). The weirdest bit are those which are not changed and don't seem to quite fit now.

As Jack says, the Doomsday letters aboard our missile subs were and indeed are very real. They are one of the little pleasures our Prime Ministers get shortly after they are elected. Nobody knows what has been written on them other than the author, though I can have a good guess what Jim Callaghan's letters would have said.
 

Top hats daily

JN1 said:
Wow, that's really weird. It has to have been done by someone who is a member here because AFAIK you can't get access to this forum if you are not a member (or am I wrong about that?). The weirdest bit are those which are not changed and don't seem to quite fit now.

As Jack says, the Doomsday letters aboard our missile subs were and indeed are very real. They are one of the little pleasures our Prime Ministers get shortly after they are elected. Nobody knows what has been written on them other than the author, though I can have a good guess what Jim Callaghan's letters would have said.
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You can get access, not to Future History, Writers, or ASB though.
 
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