aircraft that should have been built

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abc123

Banned
Russell said:
Apologies for sounding like a heretic, but I often struggle to appreciate some of these military mega projects. While I appreciate the loss of the Hawker P.1121, the loss of super expensive and often impractical designs like the p.1154 was most likely a blessing in surprise. It's design, for instance would most likely never have been practical for its intended purpose (rough field V/STOL operations) while the problems with gas in gestation would have been disastrous.

The TSR.2 - a fundamentally great aircraft but the costs and limited export potential limiting the numbers which could have been operated made it a white elephant and would have left the air force without enough tactical fighter support. A smaller but reasonably ranged tactical/strike fighter ala the AFVG or an original spec Tornado (before the Germans and Italians cut it's balls off) would have been much better for both the British military and the countries export market. Such an aircraft could also be a good multi role strike/interceptor for the navy.

The Avro Arrow - probably the greatest pure interceptor ever in terms of design time frame and electronic technology used. But it was vastly more aircraft than the RCAF ordered and had a limited, nay non existent export market given:

A - How thorough bred it was in terms of being a pure standoff high altitude missile platform. Probably very limited versatility given this and taking into consideration other such similar designs like the MIG-25, Delta Dart and the EE Lightning. The best aircraft of the era were the likes of the Mirage III and Phantom II that could effectively multitask and do so for a good price.

B - For Canada at least, but by the time the Arrow first flew the main threat to the country was no longer long ranged bombers but ballistic missiles. Such a high performance race horse was no longer needed and simply ate funds away from where it was really needed - the RCN's sub hunting ability.

C - It was monstrously expensive. Even before development had ended (and costs rise further) it already cost four times that of the Delta Dart. Much like the TSR-2 this would effectively limit the numbers operated both domestically and for export.

Sadly, all in all even more of a white elephant than the TSR-2.

However, for those of you who love the P.1121 and other what if's, I found this just the other day - enjoy!

http://www.bisbos.com/aircraft_cancelled.html

Russell
Click to expand...

I agree.
Only bad thing aout Hawker 1121 is maybe that it is a very large aircraft ( about 22 m long IIRC ).
Maybe TSR-2 would be a good aircraft if they make it with VG wings like Vickers V.589.

Also, can you tell me more about that "original" Tornado?:confused:
 
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Russell

abc123 said:
I agree.
Only bad thing aout Hawker 1121 is maybe that it is a very large aircraft ( about 22 m long IIRC ).
Maybe TSR-2 would be a good aircraft if they make it with VG wings like Vickers V.589.

Also, can you tell me more about that "original" Tornado?:confused:
Click to expand...

Yes, the P.1121 was huge - the single seat version was 67 feet long while a proposed two seat interceptor was nearer 70 feet! Too damn big! Personally, if I were doing it, in 1957 I would have Sydney Camm design a scaled down version of his P.1103, single seat and powered by something like the RR Medway. At less than 60 feet it would have been a good fighter - just the thing the RAF needed.

As for the TSR-2, there was nothing wrong with the aircraft - it was, like the Arrow a superb machine! It was the concept of a long range semi-strategic strike bomber that made costs rise (along with the usual political fucking about). A smaller strike fighter bomber would have been ideal.

As for the "original Tornado". Britain originally wanted a much longer ranged VG aircraft capable of both strike roles (a single 2500lb nuclear device at a range of roughly 1000 miles) and interception (including the ability to loiter over airspace) to replace its Buccaneers. However, both Italy and Germany only wanted a lightweight short ranged strike fighter to replace their F-104's in the ground attack role. As a result a compromise followed and the Tornado Spec was watered down to what we have today with less fuel and weaker engines. Had Britain pressed on alone and suceeded it is highly likley that both the Germans and Italians would have bought this superior aircraft either way.

Russell
 

The Oncoming Storm

I've never been a TSR.2 fan myself for the reasons Russell has set out. During the early 1960's Lord Mountbatten waged a one man war against the TSR.2 trying to get potential export customers to pick the Buccaneer. He used to arrive at meeting with a briefcase from which he would take out 5 models of a Buccaneer and one of a TSR.2, he would then tell the potential buyer "You can have 5 of them for 1 of that!" While his tactic was crass and probably made the RAF determined to kill CVA.01 so as to get back at the Navy his point was totally spot on, TSR.2 was too costly and an enhanced "Super Buccaneer" could have fulfilled most of it's role during the 1960's while AFVG or something similar was developed to come into service during the 1970's.
 

abc123

Banned
Russell said:
Yes, the P.1121 was huge - the single seat version was 67 feet long while a proposed two seat interceptor was nearer 70 feet! Too damn big! Personally, if I were doing it, in 1957 I would have Sydney Camm design a scaled down version of his P.1103, single seat and powered by something like the RR Medway. At less than 60 feet it would have been a good fighter - just the thing the RAF needed.

Russell
Click to expand...


P.1103 with the rocket boost or without?
 

TofuTanker

Russell said:
The Avro Arrow - probably the greatest pure interceptor ever in terms of design time frame and electronic technology used. But it was vastly more aircraft than the RCAF ordered and had a limited, nay non existent export market given:

A - How thorough bred it was in terms of being a pure standoff high altitude missile platform. Probably very limited versatility given this and taking into consideration other such similar designs like the MIG-25, Delta Dart and the EE Lightning. The best aircraft of the era were the likes of the Mirage III and Phantom II that could effectively multitask and do so for a good price.

B - For Canada at least, but by the time the Arrow first flew the main threat to the country was no longer long ranged bombers but ballistic missiles. Such a high performance race horse was no longer needed and simply ate funds away from where it was really needed - the RCN's sub hunting ability.

C - It was monstrously expensive. Even before development had ended (and costs rise further) it already cost four times that of the Delta Dart. Much like the TSR-2 this would effectively limit the numbers operated both domestically and for export.

Sadly, all in all even more of a white elephant than the TSR-2.
Click to expand...

BURN THE HERETIC!!

Still, I have to agree with you there. The white paper was right.
 

wietze

h_p1103_85sqdn_raf_1.png


picture of P1103
 

abc123

Banned
Hawker P.1121/1103 or Fairey Delta 2?

Wich one is better solution for RAF and UK in 50s-60s?
 
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Russell

wietze said:
the FD 2 was a research aircraft never intended for combat
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Fairy did propose a combat capable variant of the FD.2. For all intents and purposes it would have been more or less completely identical to the Mirage III. However, like the mirage III it would have been little more than a cheap multipurpose interceptor. Hawkers design, like all Sidney Camm aircraft are fighters first. Fast and agile I recon it would have run circles around the likes of the Mirage III and Phantom II

Russell
 

merlin

RAF
WW2

Bombers:

Hawker Henley - if the RAF weren't so 'anti' dive-bombing it could have played a useful role, faster and a better bombload than the Battle. Though it has been pointed out here it had a tendency to spin, yet the Typhon was perceived with despite the crashes.

Boulton-Paul P.90 (Barnsley) to spec B.12/36 - originally place second after Vickers before Supermarine lobbying - powered by 4 Kestrels (change to Merlins) est. max speed 290 mph, bombload 14,000 lb. Ordered instead of Stirling - more Sunderlands available.

Bristol (Buckfast) to spec P.13/36 - the smallest of the designs at 79 ft span, powered by two Hercules engines (Deerhound alternative). Perhaps as well as the Manchester and Halifax, this is also ordered, but intended as an early replacement for the Blenheim and Hampden - with the Torpedo carrying capability retained.
 

Just Leo

The Henley lacked a good engine. That could have happened. On the right, a better canopy, lengthened tail, dive brakes and armament could have made it a contender.

I have a multitude of WI Fairey Delta aircraft that could have been. Less an aircraft than the EE Lightning, but a much better weapon.

HawkerBristolHenleyboth.png
 

Russell

Just Leo said:
I have a multitude of WI Fairey Delta aircraft that could have been. Less an aircraft than the EE Lightning, but a much better weapon.
Click to expand...
It would certainly have been an excellent EE Lightning substitute - easier to build, cheaper and in service much earlier. Fairey was highly interested in producing a further test variant powered by the Avon successor the Rolls Royce RB.106 "Thames". It was believed that it could be capable of Mach 2.5 and a supercrusie of around 1.3. The RAF was supposedly interested by this proposal as both an intermediate interceptor and potential contingency should FT.155 program fail.

Russell
 

SactoMan101

Pity that the RAF didn't take up on the F-111K order. The RAF could have ended up by 1975 with a VERY capable low-altitude ground attack platform (equivalent of what the FB-111A became) carrying a large bomb load that could attack targets well into eastern Europe from British bases. And maybe with a 100-120 plane fleet, could have retired the V-bombers by the middle 1970's except for a small fleet converted to tankers. And through various upgrades (e.g., modified Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engines and an electronics suite similar to that of the F-15E Strike Eagle), these planes would still be operational even in 2012.
 

The Oncoming Storm

Another option the RAF could have chosen was a stretched version of the Mirage IV with Spey turbofans and British avionics. I've always thought the standard Mirage IV was one of the most beautiful aircraft ever but it was never developed to its full potential

Here is a thread from another forum that about an RAF Mirage that has some profiles of what it could have looked likez
 
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