Best Generals Post-1900:

[Snake Featherston]

Seem to be Missing on of my first choices William Joseph "Bill" Slim
He pretty much wrote the Book on how to win a War in Jungle Terrain

True. Slim had the misfortune of serving in the CBI theater, which in WWII was the sideshow nobody really cared about. Ironically for where he served I'd rate him as probably *the* British general of the war, but he did in the end serve in a sideshow theater, not the big ones.

 

[Snake Featherston]

I'm supprised there's no Guderian but damn its a hard list to choose from!

Guderian wrote a memoir full of blatant lies and had rather less truth peeking out through the veil of lines than say, von Manstein did. Manstein at least really did single-handedly derail the USSR's attempt to win the war and thus bought Germany a lot more time than it would otherwise have had. Guderian.....pfft.

I think Ataturk also deserves a mention for his defence of Gallipoli and for the Greco-Turkish War in which he saved Turkey from becoming a vassal state. He also seemed like a real badass "I don't order you to fight, I order you to die..." but was at the same time a man of honour who understood the true cost of war as his tribute to the Turkish and Anzac soldiers who died at Gallipoli shows.

A fair point. Radomir Putnik might also qualify for this list, as well as General von Lettow-Vorbeck.

 

[wietze]

A fair point. Radomir Putnik might also qualify for this list, as well as General von Lettow-Vorbeck.

Seconded on von Lettow-Vorbeck

As to eisenhower, he may have been a good manager/coordinator, but the fact he easily stepped away from the geneva conventions post-surrender in WW2 (the disarmed enemy forces issue) puts him at the bottom at my list.

 

[magussprite]

Might have missed him being suggested - Patton, surely should get a look in

Patton definitely. His breakout from normandy and extensive use of close air support were brilliant not to mention the relief of bastogne.

Shocked that Patton is only mentioned twice (now thrice) so far...

The Germans viewed him as "the best" the Allies had. His command of the 7th & 3rd Armies is amazing.

 

[Kome]

Shocked that Patton is only mentioned twice (now thrice) so far...

The Germans viewed him as "the best" the Allies had. His command of the 7th & 3rd Armies is amazing.

Correction: The best the Western Allies had.

 

[MattII]

Mmm....no, I don't think that'd work. If we bring in Western Front generals it's going to be either Guy Simonds or Monty or Patton. Rommel wasn't the German A-Team, they sent most of those guys to the East.

Sod off, Rommel gave them better service in France than anyone else, and what he achieved in North Africa was quite remarkable, given his forces. Normandy would have been a lot easier without him as well.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Sod off, Rommel gave them better service in France than anyone else, and what he achieved in North Africa was quite remarkable, given his forces. Normandy would have been a lot easier without him as well.

Rommel was not the only general who broke through in the Ardennes around that time, and any claim that his particular brand of generalship was more effective than that of his contemporaries at exactly that time requires some rather heavy citations, as *all* the generals in the crossing of the Meuse acted like that. Two, Normandy *was* easy everywhere except Omaha, and if it doesn't go any too worse there none of this is going to mean anything worth a hill of beans in the Bocage, and as Rommel's concept was not fighting in the interior but right on the beaches, the difficulties in the breakout go to von Rundstedt, who just so happened to have been an Eastern, as opposed to Western, general.

Rommel was overrated so the UK didn't have to explain why its generals were so lousy at warfighting, it was much easier to invent the armored wizardry of Erwin Rommel than to seriously examine British defects at the tactical level.

 

[Nytram01]

Shocked that Patton is only mentioned twice (now thrice) so far...

The Germans viewed him as "the best" the Allies had. His command of the 7th & 3rd Armies is amazing.

Quotes from German Generals to back up that claim please.

 

[BlairWitch749]

Quotes from German Generals to back up that claim please.

This idea is largely attributed to seigfried westphal and general gause who were the leading staff officers in the africa corps, in italy and later in france

 

[BlairWitch749]

Sod off, Rommel gave them better service in France than anyone else, and what he achieved in North Africa was quite remarkable, given his forces. Normandy would have been a lot easier without him as well.

Rommel was top 10 of German general officers, but lower level of the top 10; he couldn't have held the jock of people with the more formal training and wider view of say Guderian, Model, Manstein, Black, Raus etc etc

 

[Tony]

Where is George Patton and Isoroku Yamamoto?

 

[MattII]

Well Yamamoto's an admiral, and I'd rank Patton as about the same as Rommel, better on logistics, but more inclined to be a meat-grinder to his men.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Where is George Patton and Isoroku Yamamoto?

Yamamoto is WWII's one-man equivalent of Hindenburg and Ludendorff in WWI: a prima donna dazzled by overly elaborate tactical plans with no real strategic insight whatsoever. Also prone to using threats of resignation to get his way for said disastrous over-complicated self-contradictory plans.

Well Yamamoto's an admiral, and I'd rank Patton as about the same as Rommel, better on logistics, but more inclined to be a meat-grinder to his men.

Eh, Patton was better in a few ways, not least that he was one of the very few Allied generals in the West who'd meet the qualifications for an operational leader of combined-arms warfare. Rommel looks less impressive when we factor in guys like Manstein, Leeb, Bock, and other people who used much larger armies against the largest Allied army and made Nazi victory at least a theoretical possibility greater than .05%. No matter how great Rommel did, he would never have done anything of the sort.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Rommel was top 10 of German general officers, but lower level of the top 10; he couldn't have held the jock of people with the more formal training and wider view of say Guderian, Model, Manstein, Black, Raus etc etc

Not to mention that in 1940 that fight Rommel did so well in was according to the *concept* of Erich von Manstein. That in itself raises an interesting question as to which of the two deserves more credit: the man that single-handedly altered the Nazi plan for one of the most successful victories in history that single-handedly established the Nazi reputation for invincibility, or one of the men that carried out the plan?

 

[BlairWitch749]

Not to mention that in 1940 that fight Rommel did so well in was according to the *concept* of Erich von Manstein. That in itself raises an interesting question as to which of the two deserves more credit: the man that single-handedly altered the Nazi plan for one of the most successful victories in history that single-handedly established the Nazi reputation for invincibility, or one of the men that carried out the plan?

apples and oranges

Manstein was upper level staff when that got put to paper

Rommel was a division commander.... we shouldn't undercut his accomplishments in France, he took 100k prisoners, knocked out 400 tanks, and captured thousands of artillery pieces and the heavily defended city of cherbourg, his division also advanced the fastest and most boldly in the army

 

[Snake Featherston]

apples and oranges

Manstein was upper level staff when that got put to paper

Rommel was a division commander.... we shouldn't undercut his accomplishments in France, he took 100k prisoners, knocked out 400 tanks, and captured thousands of artillery pieces and the heavily defended city of cherbourg, his division also advanced the fastest and most boldly in the army

True, but again the plan was Erich von Manstein's and it was by no means universally accepted among any of the leadership of the Nazi high command at that time. It was a risky gamble and it certainly paid off, and Rommel's role was essential in it happening as it did. All the same he was executing someone else's idea, not his own.

 

[Nytram01]

This idea is largely attributed to seigfried westphal and general gause who were the leading staff officers in the africa corps, in italy and later in france

And what did they say exactly about Patton?

And what was it about them that made their opinion carry so much weight that it could be attributed to the entire German High Command?

 

[BlairWitch749]

And what did they say exactly about Patton?

And what was it about them that made their opinion carry so much weight that it could be attributed to the entire German High Command?

When they were devising the defensive plans to counter what would become d-day they pegged patton as the most innovative and aggressive allied commander and figured the decisive effort would be made in whatever his sector was (it was part of the reason operation body guard/fortitude was so successful)

They were the chiefs of staff to Rommel, Kesselring and Runstead over the years and had direct experience fighting Patton; and their position represented staff authority in the western theater

Westphal in particular is largely regarded as one of the most clever staff officers of the war "the best horse in the stable" according to Rommel

Westphal however was critical of patton's getting hung up at metz

 

[voss749]

Quotes from German Generals to back up that claim please.

The entire fictional army Patton was commanding before D-day was based on the idea that the Germans considered him "the man" who would lead the invasion. The idea that he would be reprimanded so harshly for slapping a soldier was unbelievable to them. The Germans "knew" that Patton would lead the invasion and Normandy was just a diversion and we knew that they "knew" it.

 

[CandyDragon]

I think Ataturk also deserves a mention for his defence of Gallipoli and for the Greco-Turkish War in which he saved Turkey from becoming a vassal state. He also seemed like a real badass "I don't order you to fight, I order you to die..." but was at the same time a man of honour who understood the true cost of war as his tribute to the Turkish and Anzac soldiers who died at Gallipoli shows.

Yeah, Ataturk is a badass, and his achievements outside of being a general overshadow his achievements as a general often.