Military Gear that should have seen service

My favorites...

Avro Arrow (yeah, I know... see under 'Horse, Beating a dead')
Black Prince Tank (A43) (the few that were built saw great service in Korea)
Soviet Obyekt 279 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obyekt_279)
Soviet Ulyanovsk class carrier (if only to see how bad they would have screwed it up)
The US Navy CSGN project from the 1970's
Grumman Tomcats in Canadian service via Iran (if we wouldn't have helped those hostages... we wouldn't be Canadian, I know)
The original form of the Canadian Helicopter Project, the CH-148 Petrel and CH-149 Chimo
DATAR
 
Hey, the Tillman was perfectly rational, the biggest battleship that can be built as limited by physical concerns of harbor depth and the projected expanded width of the Panama Canal. It would even have made logical sense to build ships that big (though obviously of a more refined design than the original Tillmans) if the USN retained its old function of keeping enemy naval power away from U.S. waters rather becoming a first rank navy in its own right, granting major advantages over both Britain and Germany who are more limited by draught.

Well, the US did get around to doing that...sort of. The Iowas were almost as big as some of the designs they came up with--rather similar to design 3 in certain respects, though around 100 ft. shorter and with only 9 16" pieces rather than 12. The Montanas made up for that last one, though.
 
Well, the US did get around to doing that...sort of. The Iowas were almost as big as some of the designs they came up with--rather similar to design 3 in certain respects, though around 100 ft. shorter and with only 9 16" pieces rather than 12. The Montanas made up for that last one, though.

Well, the definitive Tillman is the Tillman IV-2 with 5 triple 18in turrets and 25.5 knots on 80000 tons. That's a hell of a lot bigger than even the Montanas.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
My favorites...

Avro Arrow (yeah, I know... see under 'Horse, Beating a dead')
Black Prince Tank (A43) (the few that were built saw great service in Korea)
Soviet Obyekt 279 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obyekt_279)
Soviet Ulyanovsk class carrier (if only to see how bad they would have screwed it up)
The US Navy CSGN project from the 1970's
Grumman Tomcats in Canadian service via Iran (if we wouldn't have helped those hostages... we wouldn't be Canadian, I know)
The original form of the Canadian Helicopter Project, the CH-148 Petrel and CH-149 Chimo
DATAR

Hence why any TL based on a better Canadian military usually involves the second last one.
 
Hence why any TL based on a better Canadian military usually involves the second last one.

Fully agreed, after all that was spent, all the foolishness (i.e. politics) it would have been better to just let it happen and buy them as originally planned.
Oh well, just another reason I never vote Liberal.

Add a few more...

Leopard 2 MBT with the 140mm gun
Supersonic Low Altitude Missile
CVA-01
Grumman A-6'F' Intruder
 
xchen08

I asked about the Tillman's on a naval board as I had heard about them. Basically they were a bit of a joke design to fend off Tillman and his questions. Apart from the huge size meaning you putting a hell of a lot of resources into a small number of units the source who told me about them, including giving me some plans. [Unfortunately I can;t seem to find them!:(]. Do remember him mentioning that the barbette armour would breach the below water protection scheme for instance. Also when your talking about 6x16" guns in a single turret things are getting really daft.

I have found this - a html file - but comes up as an invalid file when I try and load it?

PS One of the quotes on the file I couldn't load was on their cost "Cost was estimated at $50 million per ship - a staggering sum at the time. This was more than three times the cost of a Colorado class battleship and half of the entire 1916 naval construction budget!" Not sure which of the Tillman designs this was but probably no great difference between them.

Steve

Hey, the Tillman was perfectly rational, the biggest battleship that can be built as limited by physical concerns of harbor depth and the projected expanded width of the Panama Canal. It would even have made logical sense to build ships that big (though obviously of a more refined design than the original Tillmans) if the USN retained its old function of keeping enemy naval power away from U.S. waters rather becoming a first rank navy in its own right, granting major advantages over both Britain and Germany who are more limited by draught.

That Japanese monstrosity though, I can't read Japanese, but does it give a draught? I only caught the 42 knots thing, and that's so insane that an entirely new word needs to be coined for it. I mean we are talking about a ship that displaces more than the entire Japanese Battleline of WWII combined.
 
What the...!!!:eek: Where did you find that?

You can find the Japanese wet dream, as well as plenty of other fascinating never-were ship designs, most of them more realistic, here:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bk/NWS/index.html

My Norton gives a warning, but damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead, I say.

If you're still interested in never were ships, I'd suggest stopping by here:

http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/index.php?mforum=warshipprojects

This is a great site with real data and good discussion of unbuilt designs, like this:

RussianHybrid.jpg
 
Hey, the Tillman was perfectly rational, the biggest battleship that can be built as limited by physical concerns of harbor depth and the projected expanded width of the Panama Canal. It would even have made logical sense to build ships that big (though obviously of a more refined design than the original Tillmans) if the USN retained its old function of keeping enemy naval power away from U.S. waters rather becoming a first rank navy in its own right, granting major advantages over both Britain and Germany who are more limited by draught..

Well, there's rational and then there's rational. Yes, the most famous 15x18in gunned Tillman could have been built, but if the width of the Panama canal remained the limiting factor there would have been a lot of structural problems to overcome. They would have serious issues with hull strength. Also, it is useful to note that the biggest battleships actually ordered by the US Navy 20 years later (the Montanas) were far smaller than the Tillman design and they wouldn't have been able to pass through the canal. In the the early 1920's, it simply would not have been rational to build ships like the Tillmans. And has been pointed out, that his why the Tillman designs were requested in the first place.
 
The Tillmans were not the only slightly odd design the US looked at. In 1912, the looked at building a 30kt battlecruiser, unfortunately the only way they could fit in the engines and the armament was to make the ship 1250ft (380m) long.

full_1_sig_sml.jpg


Talk about your packet of Woodbines!

See: Here for more details.
 
PS One of the quotes on the file I couldn't load was on their cost "Cost was estimated at $50 million per ship - a staggering sum at the time. This was more than three times the cost of a Colorado class battleship and half of the entire 1916 naval construction budget!" Not sure which of the Tillman designs this was but probably no great difference between them.

Hey, that's only twice as expensive as the Hood. Not bad for a ship that has reasonable odds taking on 2 N3s and faster to boot. At least not bad insofar as it's not bad to have only 1 hull instead of 2.

Well, there's rational and then there's rational. Yes, the most famous 15x18in gunned Tillman could have been built, but if the width of the Panama canal remained the limiting factor there would have been a lot of structural problems to overcome. They would have serious issues with hull strength. Also, it is useful to note that the biggest battleships actually ordered by the US Navy 20 years later (the Montanas) were far smaller than the Tillman design and they wouldn't have been able to pass through the canal. In the the early 1920's, it simply would not have been rational to build ships like the Tillmans. And has been pointed out, that his why the Tillman designs were requested in the first place.

The Length to Beam ratio is a bit high for a capital ship, but still considerably lower than contemporary cruisers so I don't see what serious issues with structural strength there are that can't be overcome. There might be some problems with upgrading underwater protection, ie bulging the hull makes it too wide to fit through the Panama Canal, but by the time that becomes a problem, it might have become a nonissue.

And I meant rational in the sense of given a particular role for the Navy. As the USN was rapidly closing in on equality with the RN which was nonhostile, and also had considerable responsibilities outside the Americas, no it makes no sense to concentrate limited resources in a handful of really big capital ships. However, an USN with a strategic role more closely akin to the IJN might find them quite useful.
 
The supersonic version of the Harrier would have fallen under the name Hawker P.1154 until it got a propper name... Goshawk maybe?

HOTOL, that just makes me think of the RB545 and ask WIF is it covered by the UK Official Secrets Act... what is so special about it???

The Malta Class would probably still be around today, they would have been upgraded and maintained like the American Essexes were, Falklands War would have probably been different because even with Harriers the carrier would have still had more space for heavy helicopters... or Rotodynes... Rotodynes in the Falklands, why has no one talked about this?

Re: RB545 Engine
It was a hybrid Turbojet/rocket engine that behaved as a jet engine in the atmosphere, using normal jet fuel, but seperated oxygen from the air around it, & liquified it in flight via a heat exchanger system , so when it entered rocket mode, it used said oxygen as a oxidant...
 
I can call it a Battlehip Fanboy's most #####-up wetdream.

Design_A-150.jpg


Design A-150 battleship, "Super Yamato". Know what those main guns are? Guess? 18/45s? Nah, those are for the wimpy little Yamatos, not a Super Yamato. This son of a bitch carries six 20/45 rifles.

A-150 and H-44, against Tillman IV-2 and HMS Incomparable. THAT is a battleship fanboy's wet dream.
 
Now, assuming the Tillmans came to be, what would they be named? And more to the point, what role would they have? Here's what I'd figure.

Any operational Tillmans would require the Washington Naval Treaty to not happen at all, as it would make a 80,000-ton giant impossible. This has the after affect of not stopping a growing arms race between the US, Britain and Japan.

Now, assuming these are authorized in 1919-1920 and begin construction, with hull numbers BB-49 for the first. No Washington Naval Treaty means that the US' battle fleet probably includes the South Dakota class (the first one) and the Lexington-class battlecruisers, which the Tillmans would more likely work with - their 25 knot+ speed allows them to be the heavy backup to whatever the Lexingtons can't handle, which admittedly isn't much. Keeping the names from IOTL's South Dakotas and remembering that the name of the South Dakota class was already chosen, the likely BB-49 (the first Tillman) would be Indiana, followed by Montana and North Carolina. I can't see any more than three being built in any scenario.

The first Tillmans are finished in 1923-24 and commissioned, with Indiana, Montana and North Carolina being by some margin the largest battleships in the world at the time. The six Lexington-class battlecruisers are also built, and the Tillmans are assigned to many of the same duties as the Lexingtons as the Tillmans are considerably faster than the Standard design battleships. The Tillmans' casemate mounts prove to be difficult to operate and useless in heavy seas, and they are removed in 1920s refits.

The Tillmans force other nations to move ahead with bigger and heavier designs. Japan finishes its eight-six fleet in the early 1930s, with the Kii, Amagi and Nagato class vessels all seeing completion. Britain winds up scrapping some of its oldest vessels and calling on Commonwealth help to build the Royal Navy to the point where it can keep up with the Americans - but even then, the USN has a decisive advantage over everybody else.

The Tillmans are refitted and modernized in the 1930s, substantially increasing their AA armament, among other improvements. The Tillmans, however, suffer from a relative lack of armoring, and this cannot be improved without the beasts being unable to pass through the Panama Canal. Despite this, the Tillmans are an active part of the USN right through the 1920s and 1930s.

Knowledge of Germany's Bismarck keeps Indiana and Montana in the Atlantic, while North Carolina goes to the Pacific. North Carolina is severely damaged at Pearl Harbor, taking particular damage from aircraft bombs - but she, like all the other vessels at Pearl Harbor save Arizona and Maryland, is repaired and sent back into the Ocean. The speed of the Tillmans and the Lexington class battlecruisers makes them useful parts of the fleet, even as the first new modern designs, the Iowa (OTL North Carolina), Missouri (OTL South Dakotas) and Ohio (OTL Iowa) start to arrive in the fleet.

Japan's immense Yamato is a primary concern for everybody, but the Japanese, knowing of the Tillmans' massive battery of 15 18" guns, is tasked to find and destroy the Tillmans. Following Pearl Harbor and the loss of many of the American fleet for a time, Indiana and three Lexingtons go to the Pacific. That results in Indiana being called in to back up two of her smaller sisters during the famed battle with Kirishima. The Japanese ship damages the two smaller battleships, but Indiana's giant 18" guns blast the Japanese ship to bits.

North Carolina, substantially rebuilt, returns to the USN in mid 1943, and having had much of its superstructure rebuilt and many improvements made, she is fearsome - and the Japanese know it. The same major upgrades soon are fitted to Indiana and Montana. They serve out the war with distinction, though Indiana is the only one to fight an enemy battleship, though North Carolina was dispatched to go after Yamato if the bombing attempt on her as she move to reinforce Okinawa failed. In many ways, North Carolina's crew was a little disappointed they never had the chance to go toe-to-toe with the Japanese beast. The war over, all three are decommissioned in 1946 and remain in the reserve fleet, and all are eventually scrapped in the early 1960s.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
Design_A-150.jpg


Design A-150 battleship, "Super Yamato". Know what those main guns are? Guess? 18/45s? Nah, those are for the wimpy little Yamatos, not a Super Yamato. This son of a bitch carries six 20/45 rifles.

A-150 and H-44, against Tillman IV-2 and HMS Incomparable. THAT is a battleship fanboy's wet dream.

I'm sorry, I was refering to the 1/2 Million Ton Ultra-Uber Battleship with 100 16-inch guns (that's 50 twin turrets) and was supposed to go 42 knots!!!
 
Nice TL, Mann. Personally, though, I still prefer the Montana class. They were the biggest practical battleships the USN never built. Then there's CVA-58 and the CSGN Strike Cruiser....
 
Now, assuming the Tillmans came to be, what would they be named? And more to the point, what role would they have? Here's what I'd figure.

Any operational Tillmans would require the Washington Naval Treaty to not happen at all, as it would make a 80,000-ton giant impossible. This has the after affect of not stopping a growing arms race between the US, Britain and Japan.

Now, assuming these are authorized in 1919-1920 and begin construction, with hull numbers BB-49 for the first. No Washington Naval Treaty means that the US' battle fleet probably includes the South Dakota class (the first one) and the Lexington-class battlecruisers, which the Tillmans would more likely work with - their 25 knot+ speed allows them to be the heavy backup to whatever the Lexingtons can't handle, which admittedly isn't much. Keeping the names from IOTL's South Dakotas and remembering that the name of the South Dakota class was already chosen, the likely BB-49 (the first Tillman) would be Indiana, followed by Montana and North Carolina. I can't see any more than three being built in any scenario.

The first Tillmans are finished in 1923-24 and commissioned, with Indiana, Montana and North Carolina being by some margin the largest battleships in the world at the time. The six Lexington-class battlecruisers are also built, and the Tillmans are assigned to many of the same duties as the Lexingtons as the Tillmans are considerably faster than the Standard design battleships. The Tillmans' casemate mounts prove to be difficult to operate and useless in heavy seas, and they are removed in 1920s refits.

The Tillmans force other nations to move ahead with bigger and heavier designs. Japan finishes its eight-six fleet in the early 1930s, with the Kii, Amagi and Nagato class vessels all seeing completion. Britain winds up scrapping some of its oldest vessels and calling on Commonwealth help to build the Royal Navy to the point where it can keep up with the Americans - but even then, the USN has a decisive advantage over everybody else.

The Tillmans are refitted and modernized in the 1930s, substantially increasing their AA armament, among other improvements. The Tillmans, however, suffer from a relative lack of armoring, and this cannot be improved without the beasts being unable to pass through the Panama Canal. Despite this, the Tillmans are an active part of the USN right through the 1920s and 1930s.

Knowledge of Germany's Bismarck keeps Indiana and Montana in the Atlantic, while North Carolina goes to the Pacific. North Carolina is severely damaged at Pearl Harbor, taking particular damage from aircraft bombs - but she, like all the other vessels at Pearl Harbor save Arizona and Maryland, is repaired and sent back into the Ocean. The speed of the Tillmans and the Lexington class battlecruisers makes them useful parts of the fleet, even as the first new modern designs, the Iowa (OTL North Carolina), Missouri (OTL South Dakotas) and Ohio (OTL Iowa) start to arrive in the fleet.

Japan's immense Yamato is a primary concern for everybody, but the Japanese, knowing of the Tillmans' massive battery of 15 18" guns, is tasked to find and destroy the Tillmans. Following Pearl Harbor and the loss of many of the American fleet for a time, Indiana and three Lexingtons go to the Pacific. That results in Indiana being called in to back up two of her smaller sisters during the famed battle with Kirishima. The Japanese ship damages the two smaller battleships, but Indiana's giant 18" guns blast the Japanese ship to bits.

North Carolina, substantially rebuilt, returns to the USN in mid 1943, and having had much of its superstructure rebuilt and many improvements made, she is fearsome - and the Japanese know it. The same major upgrades soon are fitted to Indiana and Montana. They serve out the war with distinction, though Indiana is the only one to fight an enemy battleship, though North Carolina was dispatched to go after Yamato if the bombing attempt on her as she move to reinforce Okinawa failed. In many ways, North Carolina's crew was a little disappointed they never had the chance to go toe-to-toe with the Japanese beast. The war over, all three are decommissioned in 1946 and remain in the reserve fleet, and all are eventually scrapped in the early 1960s.


You son of a bitch.

You just had to kill Maryland didnt you.
 
TheMann

Sorry but that is too wankish. I agree that the Washington Treaty would have to die but do you realise when that was? The winter of 1921-22. In your suggestion you have them being proposed and construction beginning in 1991-20! That would definitely kill any naval treaty in itself and American would make itself fully responsible for that.

At the same time the US had not completed its existing programme, by a long way, in 1921/22 in large part because of Congressional opposition to the existing programme. There is a large degree of doubt that the 1916 programme would have been completed, even without any treaty on limitations.

Furthermore I think your schedule is far too tight. The initial 'design studies' were only done in 1916-17. Ignoring for the moment that the navy wasn't interested in them and only did they to get Tillman off their back. Your talking about developing them into full scale plans and and getting all the components, including 18" guns developed, then actually building such huge ships. Given that the 1916 programme which was, luckily for the US, scuttled for 2-3 years by their involvement in WWI, then their main point of attention. And that those ships are nearly twice the size of the largest ships in the 1916 programme, which are markedly heavier than anything the US has built before. I doubt if even the British yards, with much more experience, especially of fast(ish) ships and given unlimited funds could build such giants that quickly.

Also, if somehow the Tillmans came into existence, I can't see the Japanese waiting until the late 30's and then producing something smaller than a Tillman if they went the same route as OTL with planning mega-ships to outclass any opponent. [This presumes a massive butterfly net to catch all the flyers produced by TTL's POD].

Another small point. The USN's term for the Lexington's was not battle-crusiers but, if I remember correctly, scouting cruisers. That was because, like the initial BCs in Europe they were not designed for the line of battle but to support cruiser forces gathering information for the main fleet. That's why they were armoured no more heavily than the original I-class RN BCs of ~1906-07 with an 8" belt. Given that they would be going up against ships with, 15", 16" or 18" guns, their use against capital ship opponents would be very, very risky.

Steve

Now, assuming the Tillmans came to be, what would they be named? And more to the point, what role would they have? Here's what I'd figure.

Any operational Tillmans would require the Washington Naval Treaty to not happen at all, as it would make a 80,000-ton giant impossible. This has the after affect of not stopping a growing arms race between the US, Britain and Japan.

Now, assuming these are authorized in 1919-1920 and begin construction, with hull numbers BB-49 for the first. No Washington Naval Treaty means that the US' battle fleet probably includes the South Dakota class (the first one) and the Lexington-class battlecruisers, which the Tillmans would more likely work with - their 25 knot+ speed allows them to be the heavy backup to whatever the Lexingtons can't handle, which admittedly isn't much. Keeping the names from IOTL's South Dakotas and remembering that the name of the South Dakota class was already chosen, the likely BB-49 (the first Tillman) would be Indiana, followed by Montana and North Carolina. I can't see any more than three being built in any scenario.

The first Tillmans are finished in 1923-24 and commissioned, with Indiana, Montana and North Carolina being by some margin the largest battleships in the world at the time. The six Lexington-class battlecruisers are also built, and the Tillmans are assigned to many of the same duties as the Lexingtons as the Tillmans are considerably faster than the Standard design battleships. The Tillmans' casemate mounts prove to be difficult to operate and useless in heavy seas, and they are removed in 1920s refits.

The Tillmans force other nations to move ahead with bigger and heavier designs. Japan finishes its eight-six fleet in the early 1930s, with the Kii, Amagi and Nagato class vessels all seeing completion. Britain winds up scrapping some of its oldest vessels and calling on Commonwealth help to build the Royal Navy to the point where it can keep up with the Americans - but even then, the USN has a decisive advantage over everybody else.

The Tillmans are refitted and modernized in the 1930s, substantially increasing their AA armament, among other improvements. The Tillmans, however, suffer from a relative lack of armoring, and this cannot be improved without the beasts being unable to pass through the Panama Canal. Despite this, the Tillmans are an active part of the USN right through the 1920s and 1930s.

Knowledge of Germany's Bismarck keeps Indiana and Montana in the Atlantic, while North Carolina goes to the Pacific. North Carolina is severely damaged at Pearl Harbor, taking particular damage from aircraft bombs - but she, like all the other vessels at Pearl Harbor save Arizona and Maryland, is repaired and sent back into the Ocean. The speed of the Tillmans and the Lexington class battlecruisers makes them useful parts of the fleet, even as the first new modern designs, the Iowa (OTL North Carolina), Missouri (OTL South Dakotas) and Ohio (OTL Iowa) start to arrive in the fleet.

Japan's immense Yamato is a primary concern for everybody, but the Japanese, knowing of the Tillmans' massive battery of 15 18" guns, is tasked to find and destroy the Tillmans. Following Pearl Harbor and the loss of many of the American fleet for a time, Indiana and three Lexingtons go to the Pacific. That results in Indiana being called in to back up two of her smaller sisters during the famed battle with Kirishima. The Japanese ship damages the two smaller battleships, but Indiana's giant 18" guns blast the Japanese ship to bits.

North Carolina, substantially rebuilt, returns to the USN in mid 1943, and having had much of its superstructure rebuilt and many improvements made, she is fearsome - and the Japanese know it. The same major upgrades soon are fitted to Indiana and Montana. They serve out the war with distinction, though Indiana is the only one to fight an enemy battleship, though North Carolina was dispatched to go after Yamato if the bombing attempt on her as she move to reinforce Okinawa failed. In many ways, North Carolina's crew was a little disappointed they never had the chance to go toe-to-toe with the Japanese beast. The war over, all three are decommissioned in 1946 and remain in the reserve fleet, and all are eventually scrapped in the early 1960s.
 
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