Germany does not lose WW1. What happens to Eastern Europe?

Supreme

Banned
In a scenario in which the United States does not enter the war and the war between the Entente and Germany ends in an without condicions peace treaty, what happens in Russia? can the Bolsheviks expel the Germans? Whites win with German support? the Russian Empire split into a thousand pieces?
 

Riain

Banned
Ah good, the monthly "World War one thread that inevitably descends into Central Powers circlejerk" has started. 🙄

They haven't been here a month, or even a week.

In any case you never know, it might descend into the proto-Nazi and angelic Britain circlejerk.
 

Riain

Banned
The Entente and Germany simply stop fighting, neither side imposes conditions on the other

Ok, unrealistic as the CP defeated Russia then tried to defeat France, Britain and USA but failed then was defeated in turn. No country was looking for a white peace without conditions, too much had been sacrificed for that.
 
I did read some articles recently which studied the state of German forces in the east prior to, during, and after the outbreak of the revolution in Germany and it was pretty interesting. I’ll have to find it, but IIRC it showed that even in the months prior to the Armistice, many German formations in places like Ukraine and the Baltic were in the process of disintegration due to local pressures, partisan attacks (especially in Ukraine’s eastern frontier, where garrisons were in isolated blockhouses which could easily be wiped out), fraternization with socialist agitators, desertion, etc. Thought this was an interesting point to trot out the next time someone discusses a post-1918 German intervention in Russia against the Bolsheviks.

But basically my common answer to these threads is always the following set of events: Germany secures a favorable armistice in the West and the social deterioration in Germany is so bad that they must demobilize and attempt to resume food imports. Despite the dreams of German high command, an attack against the Bolsheviks is not viable. Some number of German troops are kept active in the east fighting local insurgents, of which there are many, especially in Ukraine. The post-war orders there slowly stabilize, but remain difficult. Some German political factions are interested in aiding the whites, but the intransigence of groups like the Volunteer Army over “One Russia indivisible” and Great War loyalties creates major issues. After military victories on all fronts, the Bolsheviks prevail in the Civil War in the early 1920s. Periods of calm (and Soviet attempts to secure trade deals) and interspersed with tense moments over Comintern activity in the eastern satellites. History ensues.
 
How early does the Central Powers beat Russia in the East?
How is it going on the Western Front?
What happens in Russia after the Armistice/Peace?
What is going on in the Balkans and Middle East, did Turkey join the Central Powers or stay neutral?
What is the Status of Italy?
 

Riain

Banned
Just for clarity the timeline at Brest Litovsk was:
  • Central Powers stated 27 December 1917 they did not intend to annex territories occupied by force.
    • Poland, Lithuania and Courland, already occupied by the Central Powers, were determined to separate from Russia on the principle of self-determination that the Bolsheviks themselves espoused.
  • The Bolsheviks dissembled, wasting time hoping for Germany to have a revolution.
  • Ukraine declared Independence, sent a delegation to Brest Litovsk and signed a Treaty with Germany on 9 Feb 1918 as an independent state.
  • Germany launches Operation Faustschlag on 18 Feb, 53 divisions advanced 150 miles in a week. Hoffmann presents new terms to the Soviet on 23 Feb that included the withdrawal of all Soviet troops from Ukraine and Finland.
    • The Soviets were given 48 hours to open negotiations with the Germans, and another 72 to conclude them.
    • Russia renounced all territorial claims in Finland (whose independence it had already recognized), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, most of Belarus, and Ukraine. The territory of the Kingdom of Poland was not mentioned in the treaty.
    • The treaty stated that "Germany and Austria-Hungary intend to determine the future fate of these territories in agreement with their populations." Most of the territories were in effect ceded to Germany.
    • Estonia declared independence 24 Feb, the day before the Germans arrived.
  • The Soviets signed the Treaty 3 March.
The Soviets would have been vastly better off if they simply accepted the terms of December 1917.
 
They haven't been here a month, or even a week.

In any case you never know, it might descend into the proto-Nazi and angelic Britain circlejerk.
Perhaps, but all the ones I've seen have been "Germany totally wouldn't have mistreated Eastern Europe (just ignore their actions in Africa and Asia)." 乁⁠(⁠ ⁠•⁠_⁠•⁠ ⁠)⁠ㄏ
 

Riain

Banned
Perhaps, but all the ones I've seen have been "Germany totally wouldn't have mistreated Eastern Europe (just ignore their actions in Africa and Asia)." 乁⁠(⁠ ⁠•⁠_⁠•⁠ ⁠)⁠ㄏ

Is a puppet/buffer state in Europe the same as a colony in Africa? It's worthwhile to look into the different between Mitteleuropa and a colonial empire.
 
Just for clarity the timeline at Brest Litovsk was:
  • Central Powers stated 27 December 1917 they did not intend to annex territories occupied by force.
    • Poland, Lithuania and Courland, already occupied by the Central Powers, were determined to separate from Russia on the principle of self-determination that the Bolsheviks themselves espoused.
  • The Bolsheviks dissembled, wasting time hoping for Germany to have a revolution.
  • Ukraine declared Independence, sent a delegation to Brest Litovsk and signed a Treaty with Germany on 9 Feb 1918 as an independent state.
  • Germany launches Operation Faustschlag on 18 Feb, 53 divisions advanced 150 miles in a week. Hoffmann presents new terms to the Soviet on 23 Feb that included the withdrawal of all Soviet troops from Ukraine and Finland.
    • The Soviets were given 48 hours to open negotiations with the Germans, and another 72 to conclude them.
    • Russia renounced all territorial claims in Finland (whose independence it had already recognized), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, most of Belarus, and Ukraine. The territory of the Kingdom of Poland was not mentioned in the treaty.
    • The treaty stated that "Germany and Austria-Hungary intend to determine the future fate of these territories in agreement with their populations." Most of the territories were in effect ceded to Germany.
    • Estonia declared independence 24 Feb, the day before the Germans arrived.
  • The Soviets signed the Treaty 3 March.
The Soviets would have been vastly better off if they simply accepted the terms of December 1917.
I have asked myself.
What happens to Belarus? The Germans as far as I know weren't interested, the Bolshevik gave it up just to later return and meanwhile the poor lads in Minsk were screwed.

Would Germany show more interested if they can secure a victory in the west? Or would Minsk still become red?
 

Riain

Banned
worth seeing how they treated Belgium as well

You're comparing wartime behaviour with peacetime behaviour?

I think it's important to compare apples with apples: wartime is different from peacetime, puppets/buffers are different from colonies, indirect colonial rule is different from direct colonial rule.
 
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Riain

Banned
I have asked myself.
What happens to Belarus? The Germans as far as I know weren't interested, the Bolshevik gave it up just to later return and meanwhile the poor lads in Minsk were screwed.

Would Germany show more interested if they can secure a victory in the west? Or would Minsk still become red?

From March to December 1918 Belarous was spilt into 2 parts, the German occupied Belarusian Democratic Republic and the Soviet controlled Socialist Soviet Republic of Byelorussia. This all fell over with the defeat of Germany and the Polish-Soviet war of 1919-21.

I'd think that with a German victory whatever happens in the Soviet Union Germany will keep the part of Belarous it occupies more or less safe, as they saw an independent Belarus as part of the implementation of their plan for buffer states within Mitteleuropa.
 
From March to December 1918 Belarous was spilt into 2 parts, the German occupied Belarusian Democratic Republic and the Soviet controlled Socialist Soviet Republic of Byelorussia. This all fell over with the defeat of Germany and the Polish-Soviet war of 1919-21.

I'd think that with a German victory whatever happens in the Soviet Union Germany will keep the part of Belarous it occupies more or less safe, as they saw an independent Belarus as part of the implementation of their plan for buffer states within Mitteleuropa.
Do we have any maps to visualize?
 
Ok, unrealistic as the CP defeated Russia then tried to defeat France, Britain and USA but failed then was defeated in turn. No country was looking for a white peace without conditions, too much had been sacrificed for that.
Hmmmm.
In a scenario in which the United States does not enter the war and the war between the Entente and Germany ends in an without condicions peace treaty, what happens in Russia? can the Bolsheviks expel the Germans? Whites win with German support? the Russian Empire split into a thousand pieces?
It seems to me that the conditions laid out in the OP were misunderstood or something. The war @Supreme is talking about is not OTL, but an ATL where the USA isn't in it, and this should at the very least warrant some discussion, should it not?
 

Riain

Banned
Hmmmm.

It seems to me that the conditions laid out in the OP were misunderstood or something. The war @Supreme is talking about is not OTL, but an ATL where the USA isn't in it, and this should at the very least warrant some discussion, should it not?

I made that comment to point out that the British and French who had fought since the start were not in the mood for a white peace. With or without the USA all combatants wanted to fight for a result.
 
I made that comment to point out that the British and French who had fought since the start were not in the mood for a white peace. With or without the USA all combatants wanted to fight for a result.
You gave a very good bit of information on the Eastern Front upthread, what about problems that France was having? An army that refuses to conduct offensive operation, while enemy troops occupy their sovereign soil, sounds to me (exactly) like someone that might just be open to a 'white' peace in the west, and let the Germans go hang themselves in trying to control the East.

Financially, if the USA isn't in the war, where are the Entente getting all the war materials that the USA isn't providing in this alternate timeline?

Moral wise, knowing that the 'Yanks are coming' is NOT true, how does the Entente keep going?
 
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