Optimize the RN for WWII

I'd look at investing in Australian and Canadian dockyards to ensure they can produce more of their own warships, and maintain a larger (visiting) fleet.
A man from The City meets you at the club. He talks about horribly boring things like insurance rate on shipping, the price of Lascar lives, coastal shipping gluts, the NSW wages Award process and trade unions.

It appears as though there are already too many boats, too many ships and too many slips.

For further slips to be worked and actually have the riveters, fitters, turners, solderers, welders, etc. behind them a reason for them to slip ships would need to exist. This would necessitate higher rates for riveters, fitters, turners…. Slipped ships would displace the last few sail coalers and the god awful motley of slow steaming beasts that ply coastal and colonial trades. In a saturated market.

There are Gentleman from The City who are sufficiently concerned about this to work out some title, estate, or Lordship to meet your desires. They also seem to know what happened that night the one you try to forget. They seem earnestly interested in the Lordship, and disinterested in "that night".

yours,
Sam R.

(The Gentlemen are serious, and if not the propensity (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/LIB13378), then at least have the appearance of armed earnestness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_New_South_Wales_constitutional_crisis#Background) to someone who has served.)
 
One thing i'd do in the 30's if possible, a refit/rebuild of the Courageous and Glorious to give them a full flight deck forwards. And NO fleet carriers going off sub hunting!

Also for the now independent FAA you want to put a runway at Scapa and get a radar up there too for fleet defence and to have the FAA's planes based ashore. You also probably want to sink a few extra blockships in and around there too.

With the C and D class cruisers, get as many of those converted to AA cruisers, use the 4-inch dual mounts, give their 6-inchers to the army or put them on Malta and the landward side of Singapore.

To save some money, don't bother with the conversion of the Hawkins class ships with their 6-inch guns, keep them as 7.5 inch but for secondary roles (training?) if you can keep Tiger, don't waste money giving her a full overhaul/refit, instead update the fire control, remove the 6-inch casemates, put some AA guns on and some 4-inch dual mounts and increase the elevation of her main armament if possible. She's not a front line warship, but she's more than enough to sink any raider short of running into The Twins.

Work with the army and when they come up with the tachymetric director for their 3.7-inch AA gun, use it for the next generation of RN AA gunnery directors.
 
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Build escort carriers so your fleet carriers don't have to do their jobs?
That means less tonnage for fleet carriers while the WNT is in force.

IIRC from Friedman the trade protection carriers designed in the mid-1930s were estimated to cost £3 million each to build and the 18 aircraft they were to carry might not be enough to find and sink the surface raiders that they were designed to counter. Whereas the estimated building cost of an Illustrious was £4 million and it could carry 36 aircraft. So they decided to order 10 Illustrious class 1936-40 at the rate of 2 per year and no bespoke trade protection carriers. E.g. IIRC the trade protection carrier planned for the 1936-37 programme was replaced by Victorious and given her war record that appears to have been a good decision.

However, IOTL one ship (Implacable) was ordered in 1938-39 instead of the planned two and only one ship (Indefatigable) was ordered in 1939-40 instead of the planned two. This was due to the strain that Rearmament was putting on the British economy. Hopefully, there will be less strain on the economy ITTL due to the arms industry not being run down as badly from the end of World War One to the start of the Rearmament era so the two ships that were deleted IOTL will be built ITTL. Plus they might not take as long to build.
 
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perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
These spending sprees all hit the reality of the Geddes axe. The Geddes committee was a group of Railway executives and Shipping magnates drawn into government to politically shield those swinging the axe (no accountants). Why cut? Warren Fisher, head of the civil service would like to know the same thing. Lord Rothermere and to a lesser extent his brother were "pressing" for cuts after the war. Rothermere lost his sons in WW1 and was so anti-war that he was sympathetic to Nazis. A point of difference/departure has to include his demise as an anti-waste (government spending) campaigner. At least his brother's paper didn't include cutting defence spending. Austerity is an economic and political nonsense and always has been. Inflation was hitting investments pretty hard and his papers found a ready ear among those that would welcome some tax cuts and saw no hope in growth. Perhaps his sons survive or he dies of Spanish Flu. The Geddes axe never swings.

The OP should really have been in ASB though. Any invitation to exercise hindsight involves time travel of some sort.
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
That means less tonnage for fleet carriers while the WNT is in force.

IIRC from Friedman the trade protection carriers designed in the mid-1930s were estimated to cost £3 million each to build and the 18 aircraft they were to carry might not be enough to find and sink the surface raiders that they were designed to counter. Whereas the estimated building cost of an Illustrious was £4 million and it could carry 36 aircraft. So they decided to order 10 Illustrious class 1936-40 at the rate of 2 per year and no bespoke trade protection carriers. E.g. IIRC the trade protection carrier planned for the 1936-37 programme was replaced by Victorious and given her war record that appears to have been a good decision.

However, IOTL one ship (Implacable) was ordered in 1938-39 instead of the planned two and only one ship (Indefatigable) was ordered in 1939-40 instead of the planned two. This was due to the strain that Rearmament was putting on the British economy. Hopefully, there will be less strain on the economy ITTL due to the arms industry not being run down as badly from the end of World War One to the start of the Rearmament era so the two ships that were deleted IOTL will be built ITTL. Plus they might not take as long to build.Build
Build easily convertible merchant ships that can be taken in hand on the declaration of war and converted in as short a time as possible into escort carriers?
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Lord Rothermere also pushed for the merger of the RFC and RNAS into the RAF during the war. He was a nightmare for the RN and the economy. If I had a time machine I'd target him over Hitler. The power of the press should not sit in foreign or few hands. It is a point of vulnerability in democracy. To also invite the press into government during the war was insanity. Neither press nor government could benefit.

I suppose you could say a Wizard did it, in that Lloyd-George had a hand in Geddes and such, but Rothermere seems the more direct influencer in my estimation.

I still say that future knowledge is involved in cherry picking which ideas that were already being discussed. ASB I tell you! True, only by raising funding to the point that all options are adopted can you be sure that you aren't steering the ship of history. That in itself would take more than no Geddes axe and Churchill devaluing the pound on rejoining the gold standard.
 
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Work with the army and when they come up with the tachymetric director for their 3.7-inch AA gun, use it for the next generation of RN AA gunnery directors.
Is it true that the RN was designing tachymetric directors in the early 1930s but they were abandoned in favour of HACS because the tachymetric directors were more expensive & heavier than HACS and/or the extra accuracy wasn't needed for the type of air attack that was expected?

AFAIK the Army adopted the 4.5" calibre for the gun that was to defend the RN's bases from air attack so that they could use the RN's supply of 4.5" ammunition. Would there be any advantages in the Army developing a 4-inch AA gun to replace the 3-inch instead of the 3.7-inch? It might not be the same as any of the RN's 4" AA guns or their mountings but it might simplify ammunition production and supply for both services.
 

Riain

Banned
A couple of principles should be followed; big ships should be built in peacetime and small ships should be designed in peacetime for mass production in wartime.

I'd like the FAA to revert to the RN in 1923, like it almost did so its officers can develop over a long period, hopefully this results in good doctrine and aircraft spec'ing. Carriers, capital ships and big cruisers should be prioritized, with snall cruisers destroyers, subs and escorts being a core around which to expand. I'd like to see a ruthless effort put into standardization of medium calibre guns, which means no dido class cruisers.

I'd also like to see an emphasis on forming a strike capability like the ijn in 1941, usn in 1943 and rn in 1944. Imagine a TF of 2 or 3 fleet carriers at Norway or offshore with OConnor, or 4 or 5 against Nagumo in the Indian Ocean.
 
Work with the army and when they come up with the tachymetric director for their 3.7-inch AA gun, use it for the next generation of RN AA gunnery directors.

This is Post 86 dated 23rd February 2018 from the thread "British Navy Pre-WW2 Improvements" and is sort of the Army working with the Navy when they come up with radar several years before Robert Watson-Watt.

***** ***** *****​

In his book "Night Fighters", Bill Gunston has a section entitled, "Notable Riddles of the Sky".

He wrote that the Kriegsmarine (strictly speaking still the Reichsmarine) began development of radar in 1933 after deciding if it worked underwater with sonar it could work above water with what became radar. His Majesty King George V suggested it in 1931 after learning about asdic at an Admiralty lecture, however the lecturer thought it was not possible. He also wrote that the Royal Navy's Signals Establishment had suggested a 50cm radar in 1931. Meanwhile the Germans had developed a naval gunnery radar and was fitting it to large warships, but the Royal Navy did not get any until 1941. Seekat was joined by Freya an Early Warning set. It was mobile, had 360 degree coverage and a range of 75 miles. They also had Würzburg a Gun Laying set for flak. These 50cm radars were the best mass produced sets in the world before World War II. By comparison British radar development did not begin until 1935 and IIRC the Royal Navy did not begin development of the proposed 50cm radar first proposed in 1931 until 1936.

So what if ITTL the lecturer's reply to KGV's question was, "That's a very good idea Your Majesty! I'll look into it." He has a word with the CO of the Signals Establishment who replied, "Funny you should mention that! Because..." and with the aid of TTL's larger Navy Estimates 1929-30 to 1935-36 that gets the ball rolling?

As there is less urgency (and less money) in the first half of the 1930s than the second (even in this TL) beginning the development of 50cm radar in 1931-32 instead of 1935-36 only pushes the state of the art forward by 2 rather than 4 years in 1939. That's still good enough to have British warships fitted with 1941-42-OTL standard 50cm radars in 1939-40-TTL.

IMHO it's a dead cert that the Army will buy 50cm Gun Laying (GL) and Search Light Control (SLC) radars derived from the Admiralty's research than the GL Mk I, GL Mk II and SLC radars developed IOTL by the Army cell at Orfordness. These 50cm sets ought to be far more effective than the sets available to AA Command in the Battle of Britain and Blitz. I also think that the TTL GL and SLC sets would come into service a year sooner than the OTL sets and therefore be available in much greater numbers during the Battle of Britain and Blitz.

I think a 50cm Airborne Interception (AI) radar for night fighters would be far more effective than the OTL AI Mk I to IV systems of OTL which IIRC used the 1.5 metre wavelength. I also think that it would be available in large numbers a year earlier than the AI Mk IV. Now we need to bring the Beaufighter forward a year or find an equally effective substitute which can be in large scale service by June 1940.

OTL the British night defences didn't shoot down Luftwaffe aircraft in significant numbers until the last 6 weeks of the Blitz (April and the first half of May 1941). TTL the RAF and AA Command would be doing so from day one of the Blitz.
 
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One thing i'd do in the 30's if possible, a refit/rebuild of the Courageous and Glorious to give them a full flight deck forwards. And NO fleet carriers going off sub hunting!
Could their hulls take the weight/strain of a full deck forward?
 
Battleship construction has a very strange effect on civil economies, far beyond the powers of a 3rd Lord. The City might bear 15%, but an end to the holiday might result in a Great Strike or some similar business which would be bad for the bonds. If you want to break the holiday you kind of need to break The City. Germany and Russia offer two options. This is normally considered beyond the remit of an Admiral. To attempt regnancy. But Horthy managed it. Didn't build any battleships though. 3rd Lords normally avoid such things while the City and Parliament keep voting funds.
 
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I'd like the FAA to revert to the RN in 1923, like it almost did so its officers can develop over a long period...
I hope you meant all naval aviation and not the sea based portion reverting to the RN while the land based portion remained part of the RAF.

Though strictly speaking the title "Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force" didn't come into use until 1st April 1924.
 
Build easily convertible merchant ships that can be taken in hand on the declaration of war and converted in as short a time as possible into escort carriers?
According to Friedman (as usual) the Admiralty did earmark some merchant ships for conversion to trade protection carriers on the declaration of war and when war came the Admiralty decided that the limited ship repair capacity would be better used for something else.

And the concept of the escort carrier as we know it didn't exist between the wars because nobody thought Germany could conquer France in the space of six weeks and use the Biscay ports as U-boat bases. I suspect that had anyone suggested it the laughter coming from Whitehall would have been heard in the East End.

That's why I'm using the term trade protection carrier instead of escort carrier. The trade protection carriers was to find enemy surface raiders which would be sunk by cruisers or the carriers own aircraft.

Having written all that I have suggested that replacement of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary's tankers should begin earlier in other threads like this. I've also suggested that instead of the OTL Dale class they should have been more like the American Neosho class because 4 of them were converted into Sangamon class escort carriers and it was also the basis of the "keel up" Commencement Bay class escort carriers. This "Super Dale" is my suggestion for an easily convertible merchant ship that can be taken in hand on the declaration of war and converted in as short a time as possible into an escort carrier. However, the Admiralty might still decide that the ship repair capacity would be better used for something else.
 
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Riain

Banned
I hope you meant all naval aviation and not the sea based portion reverting to the RN while the land based portion remained part of the RAF.

Not particularly, this part of naval aviation isn't as delicate as ship-borne aviation. Indeed as long as a reasonable wartime command structure is in place its better to have Coastal Command be a drain on the RAFs budget between the wars than the RNs.
 
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