Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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the limitations of a plane that doesn't even take into account the other advantages an AI pilot would actually have, like not needing to care about blacking out due to G-forces or getting tired over a long patrol
And that AI's are expendable in a way human's aren't. If a pilot gets shot down, it means funerals, questions asked in parliament, mourning widows.
If an AI is destroyed, it means having to fill out a form.

However, the simulator Dogfight is just about the best-case scenario for the AI, as my boss used to say
Never Ask:
A Woman Her Age,
A Man His Salary,
or an AI/Robotics development team how well their Demo AI generalizes to real-world application

But seriously, Autonomous weapon systems should probably be banned.
 
We'd known since the late 60s when Firebee's were beating up on F-4's that manned aircraft would have operational issues against unmanned ones and AI was going to be another major milestone on that road. When you consider how far you tend to have to "dumb-down" AI's to give human game players a chance it's a sobering thought but on the other hand that's within a highly controlled and restricted environment where the AI has most of the advantages whereas in an actual environment with limited sensors...
The fun thing there is that if you look into the video's origins (I got bored once and watched the whole presentation before which was five hours long) you actually find out that the AI is being nerfed even there - it doesn't have something like a 360 degree view as you might think it does (ie, in the simulation it isn't just a floating ball of cameras), it is being fed similar information to Banger, the pilot for Team Man in this contest of Man V Machine. What it has is an advantage in that it is able to process all this information simultaneously, so whereas he has to do things like look at his instrument panel to know stuff like his air speed, the AI always has this kind of information in its virtual head. It basically has a sensory advantage over him as a result in that it can absorb all this information at the same time, which makes for a hefty advantage, but the real killer is to do with the precision of maneuver; both Huron and Banger had the same plane with the exact same load out and thus the same performance, but we consistently see Huron outmaneuver Banger over and over again, and the reason for that is to do with the "tightness" of its maneuvers. Because it has perfect information coming in and knows the exact state of the airframe and all performance metrics, its performance in a maneuver is basically 99% accurate, whereas Banger just can't keep up with it. To explain that perhaps a bit better, consider something like rally car races - Huron is making every gear change at the exact moment they need to make them to get the maximum possible performance out of the car, whilst Banger, performing at his best, simply can't do it so precisely.

The result is a few percent of an advantage in this simulation that consistently results in him getting his ass whooped, and even his last tactic of diving to the deck with super tight turns only drew out the fight rather than won it. I wrote about that video in the past, so I can just quote myself here...

The first is that this is not a real world situation, which would make the situation even worse for a Human pilot - that last set of maneuvers that drew the fight out as long as it did were, as the announcers said, constant 9g turns at 500~ mph, an action that the Human body just cannot sustain for long, whereas an AI can keep that up for as long as the mechanical components of the airplane can...something that can last far, far longer than the fleshy-bits of a Human being.

...and point out that Banger himself was also gaming the simulation by making use of how he'd not actually be affected by the simulator G-load. The real nails in the coffin, though, come from a Navy pilot, Commander Colin "Farva" Price, who wrote this. I've bolded the best bits:

It does not take much skill to put the aircraft’s lift-vector on the other aircraft and yank on the Gs. In fact, if in doubt, just doing that will take care of 75 percent of the fight. But BFM is about being smoothly aggressive. Understanding the difference between when it is necessary to max-perform the aircraft and when it is time to preserve or efficiently gain energy back is key. In a tight turning fight, gaining a couple of angles at each merge can suddenly result in one aircraft saddled in the other aircraft’s control zone working a comfortable rear quarter gun-tracking shot.

In true gamesmanship fashion, the guns-only BFM engagement was the setting for the AlphaDogfight contest. So what jumped out at me about the engagements? Three main points. First was the aggressive use of accurate forward quarter gun employment. Second, was the AI’s efficient use of energy. Lastly was the AI’s ability to maintain high-performance turns.

During BFM engagements, we use training rules to keep aircrew and aircraft safe. An example of this is using a hard deck, which is usually 5,000 feet above the ground. Aircraft can fight down to this pretend ground level and if an aircraft goes below the hard deck, they are considered a “rocks kill” and the fight is ended. The 5,000 feet of separation from the actual ground provides a safety margin during training.

Another training rule is forward-quarter gunshots are prohibited. There is a high potential for a mid-air collision if aircraft are pointing at each other trying to employ their guns. Due to the lack of ability to train to forward-quarter gunshots, it is not in most aviators combat habit patterns approaching the merge to employ such a tactic. Even so, it would be a low probability shot.

A pilot must simultaneously and continuously solve for plane-of-motion, range, and lead for a successful gun employment. It is difficult enough for a heart of the envelope rear-quarter tracking shot while also concentrating on controlling a low amount of closure and staying above the hard deck. At the high rates of closure normal for a neutral head-on merge, a gun envelope would be available for around three seconds. Three seconds of intense concentration to track, assess, and shoot, while at the same time avoiding hitting the other aircraft. The Heron Systems AI on several occasions was able to rapidly fine-tune a tracking solution and employ its simulated gun in this fashion. Additionally, AI would not waste any brain cells on self-preservation approaching the merge avoiding the other aircraft. It would just happen. The tracking, assessing, and employing process for a missile is not much different than the gun. I am pretty confident AI could shoot a valid missile shot faster than I can, given the same data I am currently presented within the cockpit.

The second advantage of AI was its ability to maintain an efficient energy state and lift vector placement. BFM flights certainly instill aviators with confidence in flying their aircraft aggressively in all regimes of the flight envelope. However, in today’s prevalent fly-by-wire aircraft, there is less aircraft feel providing feedback to the pilot. It takes a consistent instrument scan to check the aircraft is at the correct G, airspeed, or angle-of-attack for the given situation.

Even proficient aviators have to use a percentage of their concentration (i.e. situation awareness) on not over-performing or under-performing the aircraft. AI could easily track this task and would most likely never bleed airspeed or altitude excessively, preserving vital potential and kinetic energy while also fine-tuning lift vector placement on the other aircraft to continue the fight if required.

Lastly is AI’s freedom from human physiological limitations. During the last engagement, both aircraft were in a prolonged two-circle fight at 9 Gs on the deck. A two-circle fight is also referred to as a 'rate fight.' The winner is the aircraft who can track its nose faster around the circle, which is directly proportional (disregarding other tools such as thrust vectoring) to the amount of Gs being pulled. More Gs means a faster turn rate. 9 Gs is extremely taxing on the body, which the pilot in the contest did not have to deal with, either. A human pilot would have to squeeze every muscle in the legs and abdominals in addition to focused breathing in order to not blackout. During training, I maintained 9 Gs in the centrifuge for about 30 seconds. Then I went home and took a nap, and that was without being shot at. AI does not care about positive or negative Gs. It will perform the aircraft at the level required.

But the critical thing to remember, the most important thing to remember, is that Huron isn't the end of this line of development - it is just the end of the driveway, and the real destination is still very far away. Technology like that is only going to improve further and further, and just leave Human pilots behind in the dust because machines are just flat out better at raw calculations than Human beings are, and ultimately that's what aerial warfare is when you strip down all its niceties. How many degrees to get that gun shot, how much air speed will I lose on that turn, how many meters per second will my missile travel before it hits the target, so forth and so on. A computer is just better at that kind of stuff, and in an environment like a plane, that's a lethal advantage. The military in general agrees with me on this one, which is why we're starting to see stuff like drone wingmen starting to appear, like Boeing's own, which is a completely autonomous wingman designed to support a Human pilot, but the step from "support" to "replace" isn't that far. The Ghost Bat...


...is already rated to be ready for autonomous flight, so we're already heading to the tipping point in that regard, but we're getting off topic here by moving from tanks to air planes :p

2) Attached automation, aka remotes to repair and upgrade the main unit
I was going to mention that myself, but figured it best to leave that sort of thing as an exercise for the reader! :p
 
if not as capable compared to humans as their aerial counterparts would be due to the realities of ground warfare not playing as much to the advantages of an AI as aerial combat would
Yeah, ground maneuver is more difficult than Air or Sea, simply because it's full of obstacles and topography
 

Garrison

Donor
I suspect for land combat it would be better to have swarms of relative small drones, making for harder targets to hit and reducing the impact of any losses, emphasizing close quarters combat rather than long range heavy weapons, basically an army of big ass spiders acting as self propelled IEDs. Sorry arachnophobes.
 
The last archive dump now fully reveals the continuity in French thinking about a light medium tank for over 2 decades, between 1945 and the 1960s.

Along with the EBR, AMX-50, casemated AMX-50 and the light tank (20-25t, then 10-25t, then 12t leading to the AMX-13), there was to be a 20-30t tank, maximum 35t with a 75mm gun with a muzzle velocity with full bore rounds of 1100 m/s, thin armor (autocannon and splinter protection, 80mm equivalent maximum at the front) and a very low ground pressure of 0.65 like AMX-13. The "weak" 75mm was criticized and a 90mm would be preferred later on.
It is obvious that the Bat-Chat 25t is the successor or result of this program with features from 50's French designs like the oscillating turret and autoloader.
The AMX-30 links neatly to that since it leverages some technology of the Bat-Chat and was a successor design with proper radiological protection and heavier armament.

It is pretty interesting to see that this idea started this early and survived in spite of some opponents like the 38-40t tank or the idea of the AMX-50-100 as a medium. It also finally gives the full picture behind the "low-armor" concept of the AMX-30. Considering the timing of 1945, shaped charges were not yet so effective. It is clear that the idea was rather tied to the general issue of meeting mobility requirements (especially ground pressure and strategic mobility) and possibly keeping unit cost low moderate in an environment when required armor weight was sharply increasing.
The existence of the AMX-50 and its casemated variant shows that the French did not give up on armor, and those were quite fast and had good power-to-weight ratios. However, it appears that they alone could not meet all requirements expected of the French cavalry, especially on the maneuver and numbers' side. They were viewed as the ultimate weapon to be deployed in mass on a narrow front to breach fortified defenses or engage armored offensives, but the medium tank HAD the role of excellence.

This is quite interesting compared to the thinking in other countries. In a way the French medium was closer to the modern American concept of the cavalry.
 

Driftless

Donor
^^^ With the French emphasis on light tanks in that post-WW2 era, how much tactical thought was towards colonial use, French role in early NATO, or the ongoing rebuild of French industry, or something else altogether?
 
Typically, a Horse can carry 20% of its body weight, 30% is overloading
Horses are also prone to overheating, and padding of armor traps that heat in

That‘s very true and raises an interesting, and frankly appalling, footnote. Horses and mules were deemed to be overloaded at 30% of body weight and yet in Afghanistan we regularly had to carry over 50% of our body weight in body armour, weapons, ammunition, water, rations, radios and ECM kit... and not a vet in sight. Crap really! ☹️
 
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marathag

Banned
That‘s very true and raises an interesting, and frankly appalling, footnote. Horses and mules were deemed to be overloaded at 30% of body weigh5 and yet in Afghanistan we regularly had to carry 50% of our body weight in body armour, ammunition, water, rations, radios and ECM kit. Crap really! ☹️
Men can out perform Horses by many metrics. Treat a Horse like a Man, and they will sicken far sooner. Horses are really fragile in many ways. Mules and Donkeys are more hardy, but have far more attitude issues, like some Men :cool:
 

Driftless

Donor
Long ago, an equine specialist vet, made the off-hand remark to me: " God designed horses remarkably for running. Everything else about them is for shit..." In that instance, he was mostly speaking about their fragile digestive systems
 
Men can out perform Horses by many metrics. Treat a Horse like a Man, and they will sicken far sooner. Horses are really fragile in many ways. Mules and Donkeys are more hardy, but have far more attitude issues, like some Men :cool:

Indeed, horses don’t make very good snipers, or tank commanders… and, now I come to think of it, they make pretty poor pilots. Much better to leave them to man (horse) the radios, make the tea and generally stand around looking ally! 🤔🤪😂
 
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marathag

Banned
Long ago, an equine specialist vet, made the off-hand remark to me: " God designed horses remarkably for running. Everything else about them is for shit..." In that instance, he was mostly speaking about their fragile digestive systems
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^^^ With the French emphasis on light tanks in that post-WW2 era, how much tactical thought was towards colonial use, French role in early NATO, or the ongoing rebuild of French industry, or something else altogether?
No specific tactical use in the colonies, but the Empire itself was supposed to be the main way France would survive and win in an early postwar conflict if France gets invaded so the colonies started receiving a lot of investments. As for the rebuild of the French industry, that had to do with the rearmament as a whole, first R&D in the early years and then production in the 50's, many companies were involved on given projects, more than in the US or UK because the French wanted backups in case a company's design failed and to select the best contender.

But nothing specifically linked to the light and medium tanks. I'm quite certain though that the French had the greatest influence on the FINBEL requirements for a medium tank, it perfectly matches their own.​
 
This has been a long time coming having promised @Lord Wyclif to draw up his initial design concept a few weeks back. I have never tried a fully Sci-Fi vehicle before and, as you can imagine, much/most has had to be free drawn - very time consuming! As with all things Sci-Fi, a certain degree of 'handwavium' is required to accept the pretext that such vehicles can exist in the first place. My answer to, 'How does it hover?' is, 'Very well thank you!' Secondly, why does it have 2 enormous (130mm) fixed guns - because Lord Wyclif asked for them!

So, accepting the scenario... The New Commonwealth Defence Systems (NCDS) M-25 Wolverine is a low-altitude, combat support vehicle - think a cross between an A-10, an attack helicopter and a tank. A turret for the main guns is superfluous as the entire vehicle can easily turn to engage targets - much like it's historical A-10 ancestor. In much the same way as aircrew are multitaskers, the crew of the Wolverine would be better thought of as pilot and weapon systems operator - a couple of dismounts can also be carried if required for local defence when on the ground. The multi-function twin-barrelled 20mm turret can fire a selection of AP, proximity fused fragmentation and fleshettes. The vertical launch silos in the rear of the main body fire a selection of AT and AA missiles and a number of sensor drones. The Wolverine is designed to be as passive as possible and thus does not carry any active sensors attached to the vehicle. Sensor data is provided by the battlefield Link 30 data system with situational information passed down from either an area control vehicle, satellite or any of the unit's/vehicle’s sensor drones. Fire control and much of the vehicle‘s operation is provided by an Achilles AI control system. Armoured protection is a combination of advanced Bristol Ceramic over an E glass construct.

Sci-Fi Tank.png
 
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This has been a long time coming having promised @Lord Wyclif to draw up his initial design concept a few weeks back. I have never tried a fully Sci-Fi vehicle before and, as you can imagine, much/most has had to be free drawn - very time consuming! As with all things Sci-Fi, a certain degree of 'handwavium' is required to accept the pretext that such vehicles can exist in the first place. My answer to, 'How does it hover?' is, 'Very well thank you!' Secondly, why does it have 2 enormous (130mm) fixed guns - because Lord Wyclif asked for them!

So, accepting the scenario... The Claymore Defence Systems M-25 Wolverine is a low-altitude, combat support vehicle - think a cross between an A-10, an attack helicopter and a tank. A turret for the main guns is superfluous as the entire vehicle can easily turn to engage targets - much like it's historical A-10 ancestor. In much the same way as aircrew are multitaskers, the crew of the Wolverine would be better thought of as pilot and weapon systems operator - a couple of dismounts can also be carried if required for local defence when on the ground. The multi-function twin-barrelled 20mm turret can fire a selection of AP, proximity fused fragmentation and fleshettes. The vertical launch silos in the rear of the main body fire a eslection of AT and AA missiles and a number of sensor drones. The Wolverine is designed to be as passive as possible and thus does not carry any active sensors attached to the vehicle. Sensor data is provided by the battlefield Link 30 data system with situational information passed down from either an area control vehicle, satellite or any of the unit's sensor drones. Fire control and much of the vehicles operation is provided by an Achilles AI control system.

View attachment 733514
Ultra cool man! :cool:
Nothing wrong with sci-fi Claymore (I've done about a dozen) but if it makes you feel better you can refer to these types of designs as "futuristic concepts'.
 
My answer to, 'How does it hover?' is, 'Very well thank you!'
Well presumably it hovers via Wing in Ground Effect, it doesn't look that far off some of the concepts for that in general shape and there are military Wing in Ground Effect vehicles currently in service, though the Iranian Revolutionary Guards classify them as boats not AFVs. The specifics are probably hilariously off, but you do AFVs not hybrids between hovercraft and aircraft, even when the latter is the former

Of course that would be a limit to a few meters above ground
 
Well presumably it hovers via Wing in Ground Effect, it doesn't look that far off some of the concepts for that in general shape and there are military Wing in Ground Effect vehicles currently in service, though the Iranian Revolutionary Guards classify them as boats not AFVs. The specifics are probably hilariously off, but you do AFVs not hybrids between hovercraft and aircraft, even when the latter is the former

Of course that would be a limit to a few meters above ground

True, but technically it is still an Armourer Fighting Vehicle. The fact that is sort of flies and has some sort of anti-grav ability to hover is lost in all the associated hand waving! 🤣
 
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