USA doesn't join WW1 but Germany still loses?

ferdi254

Banned
I also think that the situation is ASB but that has been discussed.

To answer the OP, it depends on the definition of „collapse“. You can have anything from a Superversailles to a sqa peace depending on the time, circumstances, political shenanigans

so basically the question of the OP cannot be answered.
 
I do like how we're so far off topic that not one of the past ten responses really even engages with the premise of the initial post. But that's unfortunately normal for WW1 threads.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
The Entente doesn't have the manpower? Seriously?

With the Ottoman Empire collapsing and the fronts there being freed up, the weight of the Indian Army becomes a factor.
Well, the two largest colonial Empires the world had ever seen would struggle with their underpopulated African and Indian possessions.

To join you in seriousness, as I had already posted, OTL the French planned a major expansion in their colonial forces for the 1919 campaign - to be blunt, they had thrown away a lot of white Europeans (along with the original colonial forces), now they would bury Germany under a pile of American & black corpses without any compunction.

The British seemed less determined to have a huge Indian Army but, given the choice between losing the war and empowering & arming a large number of their colonial subjects, I don't think London or Delhi would think twice.

And, as David can attest, Nepal is well known for being flat, dry & hot. No way will the Gurkhas deal with the mild wet winters of Europe.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
The British seemed less determined to have a huge Indian Army but, given the choice between losing the war and empowering & arming a large number of their colonial subjects, I don't think London or Delhi would think twice.

Well, given that the Indian Army was around 1.78 million strong at the time in question, I'm not sure it can be described as anything other than "huge". It's certainly comparable in size to the American Army (around 2 million).

And, as David can attest, Nepal is well known for being flat, dry & hot. No way will the Gurkhas deal with the mild wet winters of Europe.

"They're only lal chaps, they'll drown in the trenches." GMF.
 
as you say just the Zimmerman telegram would not be enough. The Germans did need a better propaganda department.
To make a big change you would need no credit to either side and some ting like cash and carry policy and this would have made the Entente run out of resources much faster.
As for the grandiose dream of an empire that put the Germans in the same boat as all the other powers in Europe with the massive empires.
The real difference of no American troops arriving in Europe would be the Entente lacking the manpower to break the German lines and the German may not have wasted the manpower on the last offensive in 1918 to break allied lines and kept those troops for defence.
Hence my quote about being "selective" with the truth highlighting the Germany aggression while omitting your own (until the Bolsheviks opened the secret diplomatic files.) Even after the secret diplo files were released, the citizens of war were in it to win it, full of spite, and the British still had control of world-wide communications via the telegraph lines it had cut at the start of the war.

As for many power, let's go on a deep dive:

The AEF had 4 divisions (20 k men, + 10k division tail) for 120,000k by the end of 1917 (some still training/organizing), the small tail was partially due to American eagerness to fight, partially due to American arrogance about Elan and Infantry marksmanship vs entrenched arty and machine guns that everyone had already learned (even Cadorna!) by 1917. To their credit they did learn eventually but Perishing did a fine job killing them. By 1918 11 months IOTL the division tail got a bit better at 1:1 with combat at 2.6-2.8 million with 64 divisions.

In contrast the Liberal Prime Minister Lloyd George withheld 400,000 men from conservative favorite general Hauge in early 1918 all the while it was state policy to make it a white man's war by withholding deployment and expansion of the 2 million strong Indian army. Insert snip about British perfidy of asking others to die while it withheld its own men. You'd never know it by looking at British pictures and dispatches that 1/3 of the western front manpower was Indian in the panicked days of 1914-1915 but this was dialed back so white men can die (and preserve the empire); this self-imposed restrain can be reversed if they felt they were desperate. The same with the Dominions, which had just started conscripting in mid to late 1917 and vast pools of farmboys to throw. There was so much slack in the British empire, unused for various reasons that they can mobilize.

This is in contrast to the Germans who had mobilized all the men from 18-45 hoping to fight a short war, then realized that they over mobilized and along with amazing mismanagement of the food-supply and domestic politics (turns out beating and shooting people really inspires revolutionaries) had to steadily demobilize their most experienced older men, the subversive (pacifist/liberal/any one that made a big fuss) men, and the farmers in exchange for fresh conscripts all while taking causalities everywhere. The East proved to be a manpower drain with most of the food going to feed the local garrisons sent to loot the food, it turns out revolutionary chaos, 3 years of scorched earth retreats, Tsar Nick's malicious mismanagement, and some poor weather had all reduced the harvest. By 1918 there was only about a million men in reserve, which the Spanish flu hit hard since the Germans had the same frontage, but less men to spare.
Rubber, trucks and oil were not so important to the Germans in ww1 as they are mostly using trains and horse-drawn transport. rubber, trucks and oil were much more important in ww2 to the Germans and this explains why they used so many horses in ww2 when the British had stopped using them.

Steel tires (which the Germans used in desperation) churned up the road and made logistics worse for follow-up elements. A horse/mule eats as much as 7-8 men (can't just forage grass), requires a handler to maintain, and is taken away from food production which the central powers lacked in contrast to the more mechanized British/French farmers who also had world markets. The 100 days offensives were combined arms breakthroughs spearheaded with hundreds of tanks and sustained by trucks and early APCs. In contrast the Spring offensive sent new echelons of men to sustain breakthroughs but can only walk so fast and came at the cost of slaughtering the best and most reliable men of the German army (and couldn't exploit due to the severe shortage in horses). You simply couldn't carry enough on foot and horse in a speedy manner that the defender couldn't ship in via rail.

At the end of the day, there's no getting around the fact that Moltke and Conrad von Holtzendorff pushed for a quick glorious war against over half the world's economy and manpower and reality handed them a war of attrition.

The unrestricted submarine warfare may not have happened if the UK had not included food are part of the blockade of Germany.
Traditional food was not included in naval blockades.
So? He did it first America sempai, so you should understand when the Kriegsmarine kills American citizens? Also please ignore all the true war crimes the British are publishing about us too.

America clearly didn't care, the state department took a decidedly pro-British stance in 1914 when Americans on Central Powers and Entente ships alike were being killed and decided to only protest the German sinkings. Once the block aid set in there were obviously a lot more Americans dying on Entente ships than the Central Powers.
 
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Alright, here's the idea.

The USA manages to keep out as Zimmerman's telegram isn't intercepted. However, the British blockade works its magic and a starving and war weary Germany collapses in 1918-1919. What are the effects on the German people? What is the effect diplomatically? and would Germany even be able to paint this as a real loss or try for stab in the back myth?

Does the US also not get involved with the large economic bailouts of the Western Entente at the end of the war?
 
They get knocked out when Germany is overstretched; an illustration of the "British way of war" in Europe for centuries - keep your allies in the fight, and knock out your main opponent's allies.

Though they usually get knocked out only when their senior partner is already on the run. Their fall is a symptom of it's imminent collapse, rather than the cause of of it.
 
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Capbeetle61

Banned
If Russia is still in the Allies at the time when Germany is finally defeated, Poland certainly would not have gained its independence.
 

Capbeetle61

Banned
Russia is out in a No-US scenario, very likely earlier.
The February Revolution in Russia was not an inevitability by any means in 1917. Imperial Russia, or its successor state the Russian Provisional Government, could potentially have survived in order to continue the war as part of the Entente even in the event of the US not joining the war on the side of the Allies. Again, the Russian Revolutions could possibly have started earlier, so the domestic situation in Russia could really have gone either way during this touch-and-go times.
 
Hence my quote about being "selective" with the truth highlighting the Germany aggression while omitting your own (until the Bolsheviks opened the secret diplomatic files.) Even after the secret diplo files were released, the citizens of war were in it to win it, full of spite, and the British still had control of world-wide communications via the telegraph lines it had cut at the start of the war.

As for many power, let's go on a deep dive:

The AEF had 4 divisions (20 k men, + 10k division tail) for 120,000k by the end of 1917 (some still training/organizing), the small tail was partially due to American eagerness to fight, partially due to American arrogance about Elan and Infantry marksmanship vs entrenched arty and machine guns that everyone had already learned (even Cadorna!) by 1917. To their credit they did learn eventually but Perishing did a fine job killing them. By 1918 11 months IOTL the division tail got a bit better at 1:1 with combat at 2.6-2.8 million with 64 divisions.

In contrast the Liberal Prime Minister Lloyd George withheld 400,000 men from conservative favorite general Hauge in early 1918 all the while it was state policy to make it a white man's war by withholding deployment and expansion of the 2 million strong Indian army. Insert snip about British perfidy of asking others to die while it withheld its own men. You'd never know it by looking at British pictures and dispatches that 1/3 of the western front manpower was Indian in the panicked days of 1914-1915 but this was dialed back so white men can die (and preserve the empire); this self-imposed restrain can be reversed if they felt they were desperate. The same with the Dominions, which had just started conscripting in mid to late 1917 and vast pools of farmboys to throw. There was so much slack in the British empire, unused for various reasons that they can mobilize.

This is in contrast to the Germans who had mobilized all the men from 18-45 hoping to fight a short war, then realized that they over mobilized and along with amazing mismanagement of the food-supply and domestic politics (turns out beating and shooting people really inspires revolutionaries) had to steadily demobilize their most experienced older men, the subversive (pacifist/liberal/any one that made a big fuss) men, and the farmers in exchange for fresh conscripts all while taking causalities everywhere. The East proved to be a manpower drain with most of the food going to feed the local garrisons sent to loot the food, it turns out revolutionary chaos, 3 years of scorched earth retreats, Tsar Nick's malicious mismanagement, and some poor weather had all reduced the harvest. By 1918 there was only about a million men in reserve, which the Spanish flu hit hard since the Germans had the same frontage, but less men to spare.


Steel tires (which the Germans used in desperation) churned up the road and made logistics worse for follow-up elements. A horse/mule eats as much as 7-8 men (can't just forage grass), requires a handler to maintain, and is taken away from food production which the central powers lacked in contrast to the more mechanized British/French farmers who also had world markets. The 100 days offensives were combined arms breakthroughs spearheaded with hundreds of tanks and sustained by trucks and early APCs. In contrast the Spring offensive sent new echelons of men to sustain breakthroughs but can only walk so fast and came at the cost of slaughtering the best and most reliable men of the German army (and couldn't exploit due to the severe shortage in horses). You simply couldn't carry enough on foot and horse in a speedy manner that the defender couldn't ship in via rail.

At the end of the day, there's no getting around the fact that Moltke and Conrad von Holtzendorff pushed for a quick glorious war against over half the world's economy and manpower and reality handed them a war of attrition.


So? He did it first America sempai, so you should understand when the Kriegsmarine kills American citizens? Also please ignore all the true war crimes the British are publishing about us too.

America clearly didn't care, the state department took a decidedly pro-British stance in 1914 when Americans on Central Powers and Entente ships alike were being killed and decided to only protest the German sinkings. Once the block aid set in there were obviously a lot more Americans dying on Entente ships than the Central Powers.
Well first there's that little issue that Britain is going to have to down size its army anyway do to the fact it can't supply the army it has now without American imports (and no Britain or France couldn't really use there colonial troops, without America France couldn't equip there colonial troops and the indean troops were shown to do quite badly in the European climate, plus the hole the ottomans arnt going down until Germany is).

I really like how you only mention the American contribution at the end of 1917 and fail to mention how that contribution had grown to 2.5 million by nov 1918.

I do like how we're so far off topic that not one of the past ten responses really even engages with the premise of the initial post. But that's unfortunately normal for WW1 threads.
It is a shame.
 
I really like how you only mention the American contribution at the end of 1917 and fail to mention how that contribution had grown to 2.5 million by nov 1918.
Last line of Lucius' third paragraph: "By 1918 11 months IOTL the division tail got a bit better at 1:1 with combat at 2.6-2.8 million with 64 divisions."

Edit: Trying to move this back on topic, what does the peace look like when Germany finally topples. How harsh would the Franco-british really be (assuming Russia is out of the war before the end)?
 
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you probally get either a more negiotated peace or they go totally scorched earth after fighting their way to berlin.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
Well first there's that little issue that Britain is going to have to down size its army anyway do to the fact it can't supply the army it has now without American imports (and no Britain or France couldn't really use there colonial troops, without America France couldn't equip there colonial troops
That would be the American forces that, in OTL, were largely equipped and supplied by Britain and France.
 

Garrison

Donor
That would be the American forces that, in OTL, were largely equipped and supplied by Britain and France.
Also the British were not that short of manpower in 1918, there were reserves in the UK that Lloyd George refused to release for service, largely because he wanted to discourage any idea of mounting offensives before the Americans arrived in large numbers. This forced a reorganization of the British forces in France that they were in the middle of when the Germans attacked. So if no American troops are expected the British will have to adjust accordingly and probably put even more emphasis on building up firepower rather than manpower led offensive tactics.
 

Riain

Banned
Also the British were not that short of manpower in 1918, there were reserves in the UK that Lloyd George refused to release for service, largely because he wanted to discourage any idea of mounting offensives before the Americans arrived in large numbers. This forced a reorganization of the British forces in France that they were in the middle of when the Germans attacked. So if no American troops are expected the British will have to adjust accordingly and probably put even more emphasis on building up firepower rather than manpower led offensive tactics.

In any case the BEF in 1918 had dragged itself up to a tactical level that it could conduct offensives on more or less even terms with the Germans. When combined with their Strategic superiority this gave them the war wining edge.

Just a thought, without the USA in the war but the BEF and French still in the war and with some warfighting capability before running out of steam what is possible? I think it might be possible for the BEF to push Germany off the Flanders coast, and once that is done be open for peace talks. France too might be able to conduct a bite and hold offensive before opening peace talks. Its a bit like Churchill's idea during the BoB; he needed a victory before coming to the table with Hitler so as not to be screwed.
 
Even if Germany by some miracle took France in 1918 they still have the British empire in the war and now have even more people to feed.
 

Capbeetle61

Banned
Could Germany have been potentially broken up permanently in this scenario?

This could have prevented World War II from ever breaking out.
 
Could Germany have been potentially broken up permanently in this scenario?

This could have prevented World War II from ever breaking out.
Might be hard to make the reparation then. It might just stop Germany start ww2 but not stop some else from starting ww2.
 

Capbeetle61

Banned
Might be hard to make the reparation then. It might just stop Germany start ww2 but not stop some else from starting ww2.
The reparations can always be divided up between the pre-1871 independent "German" states.

Have the Anglo-Japanese Alliance be renewed due to an even deeper American headlong dive back into isolationism after World War I, and the Whites win the Russian Civil War against the Reds, and World War II could possibly have been prevented.
 
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