AHC: Improve the defence of the Philippines during WW 2.

[Slime_blob]

Bonifacio was popular amongst the commoners that supported the revolution as he was from a more humble background. Aguinaldo was a pampered rich boy who more likely than not bribed Bonifcaio's allies into betraying him. And the First Philippine Republic was doomed to collapse anyway due to factionalism and multinationalism, it pretty much choked on its own vomit as the Americans walked in.

The First Republic wouldve been a success if the Americans had recognized it. Bonifacio, popular? I dont think so, Aguinaldo was supported by mainly from the bottom of society to the very top of society during his presidency, by all classes. there is no multinationalism in the First Republic and the elites and higher ups of society wanted a united Philippines meanwhile the rest of society as long as theyre fine about it as long as they can live their lives like normal. The Visayas republic joined the republic, the Negros Zamboanga and other republics wouldve joined the Philippines if the Americans didnt go and invade the place.

There was already a united front to Filipino nationhood during the revolution

More like what would happen is other countries just do a dollar diplomacy battle plays different sides and be the biggest winner of Asia.

 

[marathag]

- Corregidor Island, will simply be killed by artillery?

Not when they are in the 'oops, poured too much concrete' Typhoon shelters, that migh be oversized enoughg to allow access to things up to the size of Four-Stackers

 

[marathag]

other republics wouldve joined the Philippines if the Americans didnt go and invade the place.

And what was to keep out the Germans or Japanese?

 

[Slime_blob]

And what was to keep out the Germans or Japanese?

Monroe doctrine 2.0 extends to PI, its possible that the US just asks for some refueling station and a base which they would obviously give if the Americans didnt invade the place. IOTL The Americans didnt fought against a ragtag group of rebels, they fought against an organized force which they outgunned, outnumbered

 

[marathag]

Monroe doctrine 2.0 extends to PI

I do not believe anyone had extended that to 7000 miles past the West Coast

 

[Slime_blob]

I do not believe anyone had extended that to 7000 miles past the West Coast

Basing and refueling rights would be enough

 

[jsb]

3) Being a round large enough to stop a pissed off Polar bear but not guaranteed to break your average soldiers collar bone.

They finally gave in and adopted a new bolt action rifle.....chambered in 30:06 because they're still pretty heavily wedded to the cartridge. Meaning that their has been both a military rifle chambered in 30:06 developed in the 21st century and that a actual high grade first world military unit still carrying 30:06 rifles which the US phased out in the 50s.

I dont think many others really care about stopping Polar bears with one hit, over any other military function?

At this point, the US had discovered that many of the early M1903 made before 1918 had heat treat issues. Best use for them is occasional 30-06 use, and mosty low power Pedersen
So no real loss, that way

Why not simply cut up the barrels and save money on making two 11" SMGs that are better, the problem is that the Pedersen is by all accounts unreliable?

Not when they are in the 'oops, poured too much concrete' Typhoon shelters, that migh be oversized enoughg to allow access to things up to the size of Four-Stackers

I dont think it matters how thick you are once you get into artillery range they will be able to suppress any bunker eventually even if it requires large mortars or railway guns brought from IJN home island coastal defence?

 

[Driftless]

Basing and refueling rights would be enough

I think even that would be a stretch for a Monroe Doctrine approach.

The key there is that bases only means the US Imperialists (TR, Cabot Lodge, Mahan, Hay, Root etc) would have to be curtailed some and so had less influence, so the desire to reach far out wouldn't be there.

Also, the US Army was never keen on defending the Philippines. With less of a footprint, so far from the 1900 US bases on the West Coast, trying to defend Philippine bases would be even more problematic

 

[Slime_blob]

I think even that would be a stretch for a Monroe Doctrine approach.

The key there is that bases only means the US Imperialists (TR, Cabot Lodge, Mahan, Hay, Root etc) would have to be curtailed some and so had less influence, so the desire to reach far out wouldn't be there.

Also, the US Army was never keen on defending the Philippines. With less of a footprint, so far from the 1900 US bases on the West Coast, trying to defend Philippine bases would be even more problematic

Well that was what PI was offering in the middle of the war, also economic and trade concessoins and other stuff, wouldve been enough. Its just gonna show the world that the US is buddies with PI and "dont go do your shenanigans with our buddies" as a writing on the wall. They dont need to defend it. they need to just show the world who are they gonna annoy once they attack PI

 

[marathag]

the problem is that the Pedersen is by all accounts unreliable?

How would they work with 20 year old ammo, vs 100 year old?

I've used a lot of surplus ammo, and even in the '70s, anything older than 1930s or so was dodgy at times, while anything after that, was really good, unless stored poorly
With the advent of Smokeless powder, the US and other moved from the early priming compounds to other that were less corrosive and more shelf stable
If you want to dig into that stuff, look here https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/priming-compositions.html

Pedersen was simple blowback, with a not great extraction setup, but then neither was the setup on the STEN

 

[Father Maryland]

How would they work with 20 year old ammo, vs 100 year old?

I've used a lot of surplus ammo, and even in the '70s, anything older than 1930s or so was dodgy at times, while anything after that, was really good, unless stored poorly
With the advent of Smokeless powder, the US and other moved from the early priming compounds to other that were less corrosive and more shelf stable
If you want to dig into that stuff, look here https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/priming-compositions.html

Pedersen was simple blowback, with a not great extraction setup, but then neither was the setup on the STEN

Wonder if anyone has bothered to make reproduction Pederson devices for repoduction 1903s. Try and stick with 20's level tech and propellants to see if the Pederson is actually reliable with new ammo and the ammo and devices being often poorly stored in unheated warehouses.

 

[jsb]

How would they work with 20 year old ammo, vs 100 year old?

Is the issue not that it's so small (it has to fit inside 1903 bolt so smaller than almost all pistols) it needs to use for example the firing pin as the ejector, not anything to with ammo it's simply not feeding or ejecting properly due to poor geometry?

(I would also assume that anybody testing a Pederson device now would be using new made ammo that should work fine, due to the cost of such a relic and wanting to look after it?)

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

The Philippine campaign (1941 - 1942) commencing with the invasion of the Philippines by Imperial Japan in December 1941 to the fall of Corregidor in May 1942 is regarded as a significant defeat in American military history.

(Above maps sourced from wikipedia article)

With a POD after December 1940 what practical changes could be made to improve the defence of the Philippines both from the Philippine perspective & USAAFE against the threat posed by Imperial Japan? Is there an ability to create a local supply chain for consumables like small arms ammunition, stockpiling supplies and what would an improved training regime look like for the Philippine Army & the US Army forces within theatre? Could the Asiatic Fleet be used more effectively.

Dugout Doug and his favorite, Willoughby, get sent to China as advisors and are never seen from again after venturing into the Chinese interior.

 

[wcv215]

Monroe doctrine 2.0 extends to PI, its possible that the US just asks for some refueling station and a base which they would obviously give if the Americans didnt invade the place.

The Monroe Doctrine was always a combination of bluff, implicit British backing, and no one being super willing to test it (until 1900 because of that implicit British backing). Extending it to the Philippines in 1900 is a non-starter, and unenforceable in any case.

 

[Father Maryland]

The Monroe Doctrine was always a combination of bluff, implicit British backing, and no one being super willing to test it (until 1900 because of that implicit British backing). Extending it to the Philippines in 1900 is a non-starter, and unenforceable in any case.

Yep. If the US isn't in some form of control its not going to care enough to defend them. That means one or more of the other powers gobbles them up.

Best case scenario would be a Protectorate type affair where the Phillipines have autonomy and control over most internal affairs while the US controls defense and diplomacy with a plebiscite in say 15 to 20 years for actual independence. So basically the arrangement in the Commonwealth meriod.

Without some feeling of ownership the US isn't going to risk the skin for even theoretically defending the islands. Basically true independence after the Spznish get beaten is unfortunately a pipe dream.

Without the US

 

[Father Maryland]

Is the issue not that it's so small (it has to fit inside 1903 bolt so smaller than almost all pistols) it needs to use for example the firing pin as the ejector, not anything to with ammo it's simply not feeding or ejecting properly due to poor geometry?

(I would also assume that anybody testing a Pederson device now would be using new made ammo that should work fine, due to the cost of such a relic and wanting to look after it?)

Supposedly only about 100 Pederson devices escaped destruction.

Considering the age, rarity and value I'd be surprised if any of the original devices have been fired in any form in decades.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

Considering the age, rarity and value I'd be surprised if any of the original devices have been fired in any form in decades.

about that,

this should start at Mae's section, [32:50]

here the clip that just has her firing the gun.

and here's what mark had to do in order to get it back into spec

 

[marathag]

Withdraw all US troops, and ships.
Pretty sure that's the best way to improve the Philippines odds.

Neutrality sure worked great for the Dutch

 

[marathag]

s the issue not that it's so small (it has to fit inside 1903 bolt so smaller than almost all pistols) it needs to use for example the firing pin as the ejector, not anything to with ammo it's simply not feeding or ejecting properly due to poor geometry

Not that much smaller than the .25 and .32ACP blowback pocket pistols that had been reliable since 1900.
Note that a modern subcaliber device is used with AR-15 to fire.22RF reliably, and 5.56mm/.223 Remington is a lot smaller than .30-06
I will be the first to admit that a proper bottom feeding adapter would have been better. After all, the Air Service Observers had an M1903 modified with a detachable high capacity magazine by changing the floorplate.

 

[hedabla99]

The First Republic wouldve been a success if the Americans had recognized it. Bonifacio, popular? I dont think so, Aguinaldo was supported by mainly from the bottom of society to the very top of society during his presidency, by all classes. there is no multinationalism in the First Republic and the elites and higher ups of society wanted a united Philippines meanwhile the rest of society as long as theyre fine about it as long as they can live their lives like normal. The Visayas republic joined the republic, the Negros Zamboanga and other republics wouldve joined the Philippines if the Americans didnt go and invade the place.

There was already a united front to Filipino nationhood during the revolution

More like what would happen is other countries just do a dollar diplomacy battle plays different sides and be the biggest winner of Asia.

The Philippines were too culturally and linguistically divided to succeed as a nation at the time of the First Republic. That's why they lost to the US. It's not like they were crushed under the sheer might of American firepower. The US army of the time was extremely weak and outdated and definitely incapable of singlehandedly aborting a whole country. And if Aguinaldo was so popular amongst the people then why did he lose so hard in 1935?