AHC: Improve the defence of the Philippines during WW 2.

The Philippines were too culturally and linguistically divided to succeed as a nation at the time of the First Republic. That's why they lost to the US. It's not like they were crushed under the sheer might of American firepower. The US army of the time was extremely weak and outdated and definitely incapable of singlehandedly aborting a whole country. And if Aguinaldo was so popular amongst the people then why did he lose so hard in 1935?
Yeah I mean of all the worlds major powers at the time the US probably had the weakest army. Outdated gear and not enough of it overall poor quality troops. And an army totalling 76K men. ( Belgiums army was considerably larger).


And the US still one. If it had been the Germans or Japanese or French or Brits the resistance would have been crushed much much faster.
 
What size 'trained' and equipped force in terms of both Army and Airforce do we think would be necessary for a successful defence of the islands?
 
What size 'trained' and equipped force in terms of both Army and Airforce do we think would be necessary for a successful defence of the islands?
Huge, it has to defeat IJA with IJN being able to land them anywhere they want?

Taking The islands is critical to Japanese plans and DIE oil, so they will keep sending more troops, and without fast transport you need multiple strong forces that can each defeat any landings and hold separately?

Also, what do we mean by equipped? For example can be give them M3 lights that would significantly reduce the size needed or a good antishipping and fighter air force?
 
Huge, it has to defeat IJA with IJN being able to land them anywhere they want?

Taking The islands is critical to Japanese plans and DIE oil, so they will keep sending more troops, and without fast transport you need multiple strong forces that can each defeat any landings and hold separately?

Also, what do we mean by equipped? For example can be give them M3 lights that would significantly reduce the size needed or a good antishipping and fighter air force?
So the Japanese sent 2 Chad divisions - they were not really able to send or support much more than that (and the supporting arms) unless they stripped them from the Malaya campaign or from China - both operations that were already stretched OTL

The PH had effectively 1 kit bashed US Division and 1 decent PH 1st division, plus the Constabulary 2nd Division and 10 incomplete untrained and badly equipped reserve divisions.

So what would have to be held for the Philippines to remain in the fight?

I assume Luzon and Minanao?

But what of the smaller Mindoro, Panay, Lyete and Samar?

Could they be effectively abandoned or lightly defended?

Any other island that would need to be defended?

There are 2000 odd inhabited islands!
 
So the Japanese sent 2 Chad divisions - they were not really able to send or support much more than that (and the supporting arms) unless they stripped them from the Malaya campaign or from China - both operations that were already stretched OTL

The PH had effectively 1 kit bashed US Division and 1 decent PH 1st division, plus the Constabulary 2nd Division and 10 incomplete untrained and badly equipped reserve divisions.

So what would have to be held for the Philippines to remain in the fight?

I assume Luzon and Minanao?

But what of the smaller Mindoro, Panay, Lyete and Samar?

Could they be effectively abandoned or lightly defended?

Any other island that would need to be defended?

There are 2000 odd inhabited islands!
The Japanese took only the important strategic areas. Yes they did occupy all main provinces but only areas with strategic importance such as cities, air fields, and sea ports. My grandparents of both sides lived through the occupation of Cebu. Most of them fled to the mountains and the forests where the Japanese did not bother to occupy.

The guerillas operated in these mountains, forests, and other far-flung islands.

Ideally, Mindanao would have been a greater place to hold out. It's far from Japanese-held Luzon while the allies can receive supplies from the RAN operating near Indonesia and New Guinea.

Heck ironically near Mindoro is Lubang Island, where Hiroo Onoda and his men fought. Onoda held his ground before surrendering in 1974, for he believed the war never ended because his training as an intelligence officer taught him how not to fall into enemy propaganda.

Sad to say, some islands have to be abandoned since it would risk overstretch of the PC, PCA, and the USAFFE.
 
What size 'trained' and equipped force in terms of both Army and Airforce do we think would be necessary for a successful defence of the islands?
Two questions here.

1. What size trained and equipped force could have successfully defended against the historical Japanese invasion.
2. What size trained and equipped force could have successfully defended against the maximum plausible Japanese invasion with further reinforcements.

You can defend against the historical Japanese invasion with 20,000 rifles and 200 WW1 era artillery pieces if you get some better leadership and don't let the Japanese catch your airforce on the ground.

Japan can reinforce much easier than America can and can bring an additional division or two and some air support in and the American defense would be overwhelmed.
 
I've been wondering about the viability in the Phillipines of either WW2 German style concrete U boat bunker pens. That or finding an area of sea side cliffs/caverns and expand and reinforce it to allow a number of submarines to be stationed, refueled, rearmed, and repaired in the safety provided by those cliff tunnel sub bases.
I think there were agreements in the Washington treaty about signatories not building fortifications in the Pacific. Anyway given the place was expected to fall, why build almost indestructible (by anything the USAAF had until the end of the war) sub pens for the Japanese.
 
Two questions here.

1. What size trained and equipped force could have successfully defended against the historical Japanese invasion.
2. What size trained and equipped force could have successfully defended against the maximum plausible Japanese invasion with further reinforcements.

You can defend against the historical Japanese invasion with 20,000 rifles and 200 WW1 era artillery pieces if you get some better leadership and don't let the Japanese catch your airforce on the ground.

Japan can reinforce much easier than America can and can bring an additional division or two and some air support in and the American defense would be overwhelmed.

I think there were agreements in the Washington treaty about signatories not building fortifications in the Pacific. Anyway given the place was expected to fall, why build almost indestructible (by anything the USAAF had until the end of the war) sub pens for the Japanese.

Yes their were treaty conditions forbidding fortification of various points in the Pacific (though much like almost every other part of the interwar military restriction treaties the Japanese cheated or just outright ignored the shit of whatever they were supposed to be. Like building "treaty cruisers" that were like 4K tons heavier then the treaty specified). But assuming the US had been willing to fortify earlier and been willing to spend real money they probably could have made Guam and parts of the Phillipines effectively untakeable. As in built up, so well armed, so well supplied, and the like that they could have held out for 2 or 3 years under siege until the rest of the USN fought it's way across the Pacific.

I'm thinking about a maximum fortified Guam. Something like a full USMC Base Defense Brigade (with integrated AA, field artillery, coastal artillery, AA, combat engineering, infantry, armor, and combat aircraft elements all in one coordinated bundle), 2 high quality regular US Army Brigades, a Brigade of high quality NG, a battalion or regiments worth of high quality Chammoro Militia, and a number of independent regiments, battalions, and so on artillery (field, Coastal artillery, AAA, chemical mortar, and the like) combat engineering, Sea Bees, logistical, and signal units as well as say 2 Companies of Sherman Medium Tanks, 1 company of older M3 Lee Medium Tanks, 3 companies of light M3 Tanks as well as two companies worth of an American SU76 equivalent (basically something sort of the US tank destroyer but instead of being for attacking enemy tanks it's equipped with a 75mm/76mm Howitzer with a high elevation. It's fast but has very light armor. Another 40 or so 37mm gun armored cars and a sizable number of trucks, motorcycles, half tracks, and fully tracked license produced Bren Gun carriers for transporting men, weapons and supplies between the various fortifications on Guam with many of them either being armed or being easily armed. This includes a number of half tracks mounting a 75mm gun for direct fire support. For coastal artillery the high end is a mix of about two dozen 8 inch/7 inch guns and and half a dozen modernized 12 inch sea coast defense mortars and a total of 6 12 Inch guns in three modernized two gun turrets salvaged off scrapped dreadnoughts capable of higher elevation and with extra armor and protection being appleid as the "heavies". A sizable number of about 100 medium to lightish Field and Coastal artillery weapons (ranging from about 155mm guns to 75mm or so of both guns and howitzers. Some are Field artillery pieces others are purpose designed coastal artillery weapons and others are older weapons salvaged from scrapped warships). A sizable number of lighter weapons (many DP AA guns like M2 Brownings, 20mm Oerlikons, 40mm Bofors, older "Pom Poms") as well as 37mm AT guns, modernized WW1 era 37mm "Trench Guns", and various light 37mm-57mm "Hotchkiss anti torpedo Boat guns" taken from scrapped warships. A sizable number of AA both US Army and USMC ranging from a handful of new 90mm AA DP guns to modernized 75mm AA guns to medium to light designs of 40mm Bofors, 20mm Oerlikons, .50 BMG M2 Brownings and .30 Caliber M1919 and M1917 guns in various types of mountings including a number mounted on Bren Gun Carriers or Half Tracks to act as SPAAGs. Guam has two of the new Radar sets and a complete set in storage for replacement. Aircraft wise Guam has roughly 250 modern 1st line single engine fighters (P40s and P39s for the Army Air Corp and F4 Wildcats for the Marines) and about 50 active second line fighters (P36s) as well as 75 crated P39s or P40s and about thirty or so P36s in storage. Guam also has about 40 "Heavy fighters" namely P38's with another 15 either in for repair or crated for use as spares. For attack Guam has 50 A20 Havoc, 15 B17s (mostly used for recon), about 75 USMC/US Army Air Corps manned SBD Dive Bombers (and another 30 either in the shop or still crated). Their are about half a dozen DC3s/C47s and about 15 or so light to medium transports of various osrts and about 20 trainers, target tugs, and the like. The USN has about 40 PBY Catalina's for recon and maritime strike. The airfields have fortified shelters for most of the aircraft and high value material. Fortifications are extensive across the island including a concrete pen capable of holding 8 Fleet Boat Submarines (though in this case 6 Fleet boats and 4 shorter ranged Coastal submarines are stationed) with functioning torpedo. Their are also about 25 Torpedo Boats, a number of mine layers, a handful of armed yachts and trawlers for picket duty and several Tenders to support the various forces.

The USMC and US Army troops are very well armed with ORBATs more similar to late WW2 with much higher concentrations of M1919A6s, M1 Carbines, BARs, Thompson and M3 SMGs, bazookas, rifle grenade launchers, and the like with all of the Marine and the US Army infantry (including the NG) having semi auto M1 Garands with only second line troops and the Chamorro's still having M1903s or M1917s (though for the no Chammoros many of the rear end and logistical troops have M1 Carbines, M3 SMGs, or Trench Shotguns) along with higher concentrations of light and medium Mortars, Bazookas, M1919s/M1917s, M2 Brownings, light artillery in the weapons companies.

The Island is surrounded with a extensive network of naval mines of various types.

There are enough supplies stocked deep in fortified warehouses that when supplemented with some gardening and fishing they'll be able to hold out for at least two years cut off.

So basically a bunch of aircraft, some subs, a really really heavily armed Division equivalent, artillery up the wazoo including guns taken from early Dreadnoughts, and shit tons of reinforced bunkers and shelters of various type with the island being practicaly covered in Concrete, air strips, or mine fields. The Japanese would need to reorient their entire strategy around trying to seize Guam and they'd probably need to try and land multiple divisions with extensive air coverage and multiple battleships to try and reduce the fortifications (and prevent those 6 inch to 12 inch guns and mortars from tearing apart anything lighter then a heavy cruiser that get's within useful range of Guam.) Each possible landing site is covered in pre sited artillery and mortars with bunkers and pillboxes packed to the brim with light artillery and machine guns that can be reinforced by tanks that can take a direct hit from the most powerful tank in the IJA arenal at point blank range and ignore it.
 
The Philippines were too culturally and linguistically divided to succeed as a nation at the time of the First Republic. That's why they lost to the US. It's not like they were crushed under the sheer might of American firepower. The US army of the time was extremely weak and outdated and definitely incapable of singlehandedly aborting a whole country. And if Aguinaldo was so popular amongst the people then why did he lose so hard in 1935?
The Philippines was united by the elites of society, they knew they needed to be united to the best of their interest, there might be regionalism, but everyone in the whole country is united under Aguinaldo and most liked the idea of Filipino nationhood. Obviously the linguistic divide is basically not a big problem as the spoken language in that time was Spanish. The Cultural divide is basically more like the lowlanders and the people who lived in Barrios or Countryside, Towns and Cities between the Highlanders and Muslim in Mindanao if we are to simplify stuff. Their plan was to keep the unity of the Elites, Middle class and peasants against America which they did in its early phase.

He was popular during his presidency but after he got captured the Americans and especially their favoured candidate Manuel Quezon during the 1935 elections. The Americans and Quezon went and go destroy his image after his capture. He also didnt even participate in politics for at least 30 years

Their terrible performance in the early phase is because they are surprised that the Americans went and go have a surprise invasion of the place, being outgunned and outclassed as American troops are well armed and trained and some whole units doesnt even have a single rifle and alot of them, their troop quality is mixed but alot of them are either raw conscripts, volunteers or the veterans in the revolution and made worse by placing Antonio Luna as Supreme Commander who doesnt have an idea on how warfare works. Instead of Aguinaldo being the best of the Filipino top brass him personally leading the army or any other people in his clique like Goyo or Mascardo. I highly doubt that they would perform worse if either Aguinaldo, Goyo, or Mascardo took command of the army. Luna lead the Philippine Army to disaster during its early phase of the war.
 
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marathag

Banned
3 companies of light M3 Tanks as well as two companies worth of an American SU76 equivalent (basically something sort of the US tank destroyer but instead of being for attacking enemy tanks it's equipped with a 75mm/76mm Howitzer with a high elevation. It's fast but has very light armor.
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The Japanese took only the important strategic areas. Yes they did occupy all main provinces but only areas with strategic importance such as cities, air fields, and sea ports. My grandparents of both sides lived through the occupation of Cebu. Most of them fled to the mountains and the forests where the Japanese did not bother to occupy.

The guerillas operated in these mountains, forests, and other far-flung islands.

Ideally, Mindanao would have been a greater place to hold out. It's far from Japanese-held Luzon while the allies can receive supplies from the RAN operating near Indonesia and New Guinea.

Heck ironically near Mindoro is Lubang Island, where Hiroo Onoda and his men fought. Onoda held his ground before surrendering in 1974, for he believed the war never ended because his training as an intelligence officer taught him how not to fall into enemy propaganda.

Sad to say, some islands have to be abandoned since it would risk overstretch of the PC, PCA, and the USAFFE.
So if I can turn that on its head

What do the allied forces in the Philippines need to control and/or prevent the Japanese from controlling in order to inflict a defeat on them

If we can establish that then perhaps we can get a better idea on what forces would be necessary.

Also not sure if anyone knows but how where the various allied forces deployed OTL and how did the reserve formations perform?

I understand that they each only stood up a single regiment of infantry before Dec 7th, a 2nd on the start of war and only the 3rd after it had started.

I almost feel that they would have been better focusing on the 10 regiments they had already raised!
 
The Philippines was united by the elites of society, they knew they needed to be united to the best of their interest, there might be regionalism, but everyone in the whole country is united under Aguinaldo and most liked the idea of Filipino nationhood. Obviously the linguistic divide is basically not a big problem as the spoken language in that time was Spanish. The Cultural divide is basically more like the lowlanders and the people who lived in Barrios or Countryside, Towns and Cities between the Highlanders and Muslim in Mindanao if we are to simplify stuff. Their plan was to keep the unity of the Elites, Middle class and peasants against America which they did in its early phase.

He was popular during his presidency but after he got captured the Americans and especially their favoured candidate Manuel Quezon during the 1935 elections. The Americans and Quezon went and go destroy his image after his capture. He also didnt even participate in politics for at least 30 years

Their terrible performance in the early phase is because they are surprised that the Americans went and go have a surprise invasion of the place, being outgunned and outclassed as American troops are well armed and trained and some whole units doesnt even have a single rifle and alot of them, their troop quality is mixed but alot of them are either raw conscripts, volunteers or the veterans in the revolution and made worse by placing Antonio Luna as Supreme Commander who doesnt have an idea on how warfare works. Instead of Aguinaldo being the best of the Filipino top brass him personally leading the army or any other people in his clique like Goyo or Mascardo. I highly doubt that they would perform worse if either Aguinaldo, Goyo, or Mascardo took command of the army. Luna lead the Philippine Army to disaster during its early phase of the war.
The Philippine army actually had better guns than the Americans... but considering your stated opinions on people like Bonifacio and Luna it's clear that you're an Aguinaldo loyalist and fail to realize the fact that he was a backstabbing traitor, a fact that most other Filipinos have acknowledged, so there's no point in arguing with someone who denies what is pretty much common knowledge by this point.
 
The Philippine army actually had better guns than the Americans... but considering your stated opinions on people like Bonifacio and Luna it's clear that you're an Aguinaldo loyalist and fail to realize the fact that he was a backstabbing traitor, a fact that most other Filipinos have acknowledged, so there's no point in arguing with someone who denies what is pretty much common knowledge by this point.
I mean things like better rifles are relative. The US troops having Kraags if their lucky and old Trapdoor Springfields if theyre not and a lot of the Phillipino guerrillas having Spanish Mausers or Ariskas is one thing. But the US had much greater access to things like logistical support ( more ammo, spare parts, rations, and money). The Phillipinos had what they could capture ( From the Spanish or US) and what they could smuggle which was limited by their small cash reserves and the USN. The US also had advantages like Field Artillery and a navy which could land and supply troops and shell anything near the coast. And while the US Army was a joke among the othzr great powers it did theoretically have much greater access to financial, industrial and manpower reserves.

But Frankly the fact that the relatively weak, poorly armed, and small ( by major power standards) was able to win is a sign of just how fucked the Phillipino independence forces were. If the US had just left after beating rhe Spanish and the Germans or Japanese moved in I'd expect the orgqnized rebel movements to je crushed in a fraction of rhe time ( outside of the Moros in Mindanao.).
 
Random thought but regarding Guam uf their had been the money and will their would it have been possible to expand the Island sort of like the way the Modern PRC does in the Spratlies?
 

CalBear

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Only two real options

1. Make it a U.S. State (not goin g to happen, but it is change the defensive scheme)

2. Make the U.S. Congress love the idea of having the Archipelago as Colony/Territory right from the day it came under U.S. control. and be willing to spend whatever it takes to defend it. Also vanishingly unlikely given that Congress started looking for a way to bail about seven and a half seconds after receiving it from Spain and that actually creating a solid defensive strategy would have involved the U.S. tripling the Defense Budget starting in around 1905, walking away from the table at the 1930 LNT (if not never convening the WNT), adding six regular Army divisions, and explaining to the American electorate why all those tax dollars were being poured into defending somewhere 6.500 mile from the West Coast.

The Philippines were, in any real sense of the word, indefensible. The USN would have needed to be at least double its actual size (I would argue closer to x2.5) with a permanent naval fleet at least equal in size to the Japanese Navy and the sort of port facilities found at Pearl Harbor on at least Luzon and Mindanao, arguably Leyte and Panay as well, along with permanent, well manned defenses on the scale of the approaches to the Canal Zone and Pearl Harbor covering at least one port on each of the main islands. Just the fixed defenses would require ~40,000 troops without adding in Air Corps or Navy/Marine personnel.
 
Only two real options

1. Make it a U.S. State (not goin g to happen, but it is change the defensive scheme)
I've seen that play out in a few different novels, but how could it be achieved in reality? As the number of representatives would surely be limited to reduce their impact on the national discourse.
The Philippines were, in any real sense of the word, indefensible. The USN would have needed to be at least double its actual size (I would argue closer to x2.5) with a permanent naval fleet at least equal in size to the Japanese Navy and the sort of port facilities found at Pearl Harbor on at least Luzon and Mindanao, arguably Leyte and Panay as well, along with permanent, well manned defenses on the scale of the approaches to the Canal Zone and Pearl Harbor covering at least one port on each of the main islands. Just the fixed defenses would require ~40,000 troops without adding in Air Corps or Navy/Marine personnel.
Maybe you can help me out here, but if the American defences can hold out for longer say six months, what impact does that have on the Pacific campaign? As from my read the Japanese offensive was conducted on a logistical shoestring and any delay really hurt their planning.
 
The Philippine army actually had better guns than the Americans... but considering your stated opinions on people like Bonifacio and Luna it's clear that you're an Aguinaldo loyalist and fail to realize the fact that he was a backstabbing traitor, a fact that most other Filipinos have acknowledged, so there's no point in arguing with someone who denies what is pretty much common knowledge by this point.
Call me an Aguinaldista if you wish, but I am just stating facts, Well if you want to believe that movie Heneral Luna I'll let you be. You do even understand that not all units are equipped with mausers, they are equipped with what they can find, some units even have muskets. And as I said there are whole units that do not even have a single rifle.

Also out of the 13 confirmed battles he won 9 times often outgunned one battle being against the Americans where he almost won but due to American gunboats he retreated to prevent a rout which he also did meanwhile giving the Americans huge casualties. meanwhile Luna didnt even won a single one he lead his troops often to disaster
 
But Frankly the fact that the relatively weak, poorly armed, and small ( by major power standards) was able to win is a sign of just how fucked the Phillipino independence forces were. If the US had just left after beating rhe Spanish and the Germans or Japanese moved in I'd expect the orgqnized rebel movements to je crushed in a fraction of rhe time ( outside of the Moros in Mindanao.).
It took the Americans a surprise attack to the Filipinos and with some luck being on their side as Filipino generals and officers are on the capitol partying and resting for the weekend. No wonder the Americans easily won and routed the Filipinos in the first Phase.

If they are to get freedoms hmmmm, They just showed the world that they can beat spain, a great power with little US help as they basically crushed the Spanish forces in PI except in Manila. I dont think that the Japanese would attempt to invade the place they are basically on friendly terms, the Germans is a possibility as they will have a future teritorial dispute with them.

I'd expect a more organized and better resistance if either Japan or Germany is to invade as they are gonna be more prepared for war than the OTL PI/US war. Where they'll push them back after landing and either they continue their campaign to invade the place or peace.
 
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