What are the biggest mysteries of the Dark Ages?

[Fabius Maximus]

Isn’t this something to do with the somewhat controversial writings of Immanuel Velikovsky that were fashionable in the 70s?

He was big on Egyptian chronology but also other things, such as Venus having several close encounters with Earth. He’s brilliantly mad, but mad nonetheless.

Velikovsky wrote something like that, although there are non-insane theories out there, like David Rohl's "New Chronology", which basically holds that the Third Intermediate Period in Egypt has been mistakenly lengthened and was actually a few centuries shorter. (As far as I can tell as a non-specialist, Rohl's position isn't widely accepted by Egyptologists, but it isn't treated with Velikovsky-/ancient-aliens-type disdain, either.)

Hence why if I had the money I would have a bunch of statues and plaques made from very long lasting materials buried in various locations across the world. They would feature me and wildly innacurate information. Something like "Father Maryland First Emperor of Mankind, protector of Mars, Guardian of Venus, etc.". Basically it would all be to fuck with future historians and archaeologists.

When I die I want to be buried with my car keys and a set of flint arrowheads, just to mess with archaeologists.

 

[Father Maryland]

Velikovsky wrote something like that, although there are non-insane theories out there, like David Rohl's "New Chronology", which basically holds that the Third Intermediate Period in Egypt has been mistakenly lengthened and was actually a few centuries shorter. (As far as I can tell as a non-specialist, Rohl's position isn't widely accepted by Egyptologists, but it isn't treated with Velikovsky-/ancient-aliens-type disdain, either.)

When I die I want to be buried with my car keys and a set of flint arrowheads, just to mess with archaeologists.

Need to go beyond that. Wear authentic ish Roman clothing, plate armor that would be appropriate in the 15th century, modern hiking boots, a modern plate carrier/kevlar bulletproof vest with a spear with a bronze head in one hand and say a ACW era reproduction musket in the other hand with a polymer Glock style 21st century handgun with a WW1/WW2 era handgun loaded with polymer cased rounds loaded. On your head wear a Roman Centurion style helmet complete with the Mohawk.

Add a plaque made of very durable material detailing you as a great Warlord "Conqueror of Sillicon Valley, Liberator of Winnipeg, High King of the vast empire of Facebook."

 

[Father Maryland]

Isn’t this something to do with the somewhat controversial writings of Immanuel Velikovsky that were fashionable in the 70s?

He was big on Egyptian chronology but also other things, such as Venus having several close encounters with Earth. He’s brilliantly mad, but mad nonetheless.

Ancient egyptian history has always been difficult for me to comprehend. Mostly because you have a Polity that ruled most of the Nile Valley and more that lasted so long that the Pyramids of Giza are so old that we today are closer to the time of Cleopatra (the last one) than Cleopatra was to the building of the Great Pyramids. I mean the Mesopotamian civilizations are relatively more chaotic with a bunch of different ones ruling over time and the Indus Valley civilization didn't really leave records so it's difficult to gauge.

Egypt on the other hand is just nuts.

I guess a good indicator of how good tomb looters are is that we've found all of what one (mostly) untouched tomb of a Egyptian Pharaoh and that one a fairly minor one. And even that one had been raided somewhat.

 

[Aghasverov]

Gonna be so cool when, thousands of years from now, archaeologists of the post-apocalyptic civilization are scratching their heads trying to figure out how pyramids popped up in the disparate lands of Egypt, Central America... and Memphis, Tennessee.

View attachment 683060

(Former?) tomb of Charles Taze Russell, founder of the JW's, in Pittsburgh...

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

(Former?) tomb of Charles Taze Russell, founder of the JW's, in Pittsburgh...
View attachment 683321

Heh, now I am wondering what archeologists will make of the Georgia Guidestones...

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

Ancient egyptian history has always been difficult for me to comprehend. Mostly because you have a Polity that ruled most of the Nile Valley and more that lasted so long that the Pyramids of Giza are so old that we today are closer to the time of Cleopatra (the last one) than Cleopatra was to the building of the Great Pyramids. I mean the Mesopotamian civilizations are relatively more chaotic with a bunch of different ones ruling over time and the Indus Valley civilization didn't really leave records so it's difficult to gauge.

Egypt on the other hand is just nuts.

I guess a good indicator of how good tomb looters are is that we've found all of what one (mostly) untouched tomb of a Egyptian Pharaoh and that one a fairly minor one. And even that one had been raided somewhat.

Ancient Egypt seems to be from a different historical universe. It has very little in common with the civilizations that came to succeed it, and its cultural legacy has at best been very indirect. It appears to be a truly deceased civilization, with little in common with the Greco-roman christian and Perso-Arabic islamic civilization that came to succeed it. The present day egyptians are certainly descendants of their ancient ancestors, but much of that cultural connection has unfortunately been supplanted by christianization and islamization. It reminds me of the relations between the Indus valley and Vedic civilizations or Elamite and Persian civilizations or Minoan and Greek civilizations or even of the Gauls and French peoples.

 

[Father Maryland]

Ancient Egypt seems to be from a different historical universe. It has very little in common with the civilizations that came to succeed it, and its cultural legacy has at best been very indirect. It appears to be a truly deceased civilization, with little in common with the Greco-roman christian and Perso-Arabic islamic civilization that came to succeed it. The present day egyptians are certainly descendants of their ancient ancestors, but much of that cultural connection has unfortunately been supplanted by christianization and islamization. It reminds me of the relations between the Indus valley and Vedic civilizations or Elamite and Persian civilizations or Minoan and Greek civilizations or even of the Gauls and French peoples.

Or I suppose in a way modern day Americans (or for that matter Latin Americans and Brazilians) and pre 1492 American Indians for the most part. In the US even those American Indians who've retained a good deal of their culture are more culturally similar to the Europeans who conquered and settled the US.

Probably even more so with latin America and Brazil. Since those countries populaces have much higher rates of large portions of their populace having large portions of their genetic ancestors be Amerindians. They might be heavily descended from them but for the majority of the populace (outside of the remaining populaces of Indians who live in more remote regions) they're almost totally European in terms of cultural descent. They have a large percentage of Indian ancestry but for the majority of the more urbanized/developed regions populaces virtually nothing remains of the previous culture.

 

[LampLighters]

Probably even more so with latin America and Brazil. Since those countries populaces have much higher rates of large portions of their populace having large portions of their genetic ancestors be Amerindians. They might be heavily descended from them but for the majority of the populace (outside of the remaining populaces of Indians who live in more remote regions) they're almost totally European in terms of cultural descent. They have a large percentage of Indian ancestry but for the majority of the more urbanized/developed regions populaces virtually nothing remains of the previous culture.

Excepting Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, and perhaps Paraguay and Chile, the populations of most Latin American countries do not have a notably large proportion of indigenous blood. Most Brazilians, in particular, have very low percentage of indigenous blood.

 

[Father Maryland]

Excepting Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, and perhaps Paraguay and Chile, the populations of most Latin American countries do not have a notably large proportion of indigenous blood. Most Brazilians, in particular, have very low percentage of indigenous blood.

Fair. But in the cases you list ( bar Paraguay and Bolivia I suppose) the case still stands. Like Egypt they are to a large degree at least partial descendants. But like Egypt ( but to a lesser extent) little of the culture remains for the majority of the populace.

 

[LampLighters]

It reminds me of the relations between the Indus valley and Vedic civilizations

There might be a surprisingly large degree of cultural continuity between the IVC and modern India. For example, there are indications that the caste system in India predates the arrival of the Aryans.

 

[Victoria]

Not quite dark ages, but I would like to know more about Edward the confessor. He's one of those historical figures that no historian agrees about. Was he a competent king who was overshadowed by Harold Godwinson, a weak and ineffective ruler but a also a nice guy who was trying his best, a weak and ineffective ruler but also a petty tyrant who was willing to let England metaphorically burn out of spite and who always sided with foreigners, or was he actually completely disinterested in ruling and let everything in the hands of the Godwin family and the rest of his advisors while he worked on Westminster Abbey, some combination of all four? And there's also the question of whether he intended to leave England to William from the beginning, if he promised England to various people as a way to manipulate his rivals or as a desperate attempt at avoiding a war because it was his only diplomatic tool (this one goes in hand with the 'weak and ineffective' theory) or he never actually promised England to anyone and the various rulers who claim otherwise (Harold, William, the king of Denmark) are all lying. Plus what his relationship with Edith was actually like, and if he really poisoned his half-brother (I first saw this theory here and it seemed ridiculous but a historian interviewed in a BBC podcast about Edward believes it so who knows?).

 

[PsyloSurgeon]

There might be a surprisingly large degree of cultural continuity between the IVC and modern India. For example, there are indications that the caste system in India predates the arrival of the Aryans.

The Toda tribe of the Nilgiris practice caste, asceticism and revere the buffalo despite clearly not being hindu. I always believed that their culture has some similarities with IVC culture especially with clothing, genetics, and importance of buffalo. Perhaps motifs of caste and reverence of dairy cattle may have IVC origins and the vedic peoples adopted it.

 

[Hannibal The Bannable]

The Toda tribe of the Nilgiris practice caste, asceticism and revere the buffalo despite clearly not being hindu. I always believed that their culture has some similarities with IVC culture especially with clothing, genetics, and importance of buffalo. Perhaps motifs of caste and reverence of dairy cattle may have IVC origins and the vedic peoples adopted it.

The IVC was in Pakistan and Northwest India not The Nilgri Hills in Tamil Nadu . The Toda tribe , in my opinion , are more likely to related pre Dravidian Populations of India ( maybe Vedda for example) who ended speaking a Dravidian language due to being a very small community and were partially assimilated by Dravidian speakers while the rest of the South was fully assimilated ( i think this expansion took place around 2300BC -1300BC , intensifying around the collapse of the IVC but ending slightly before the Aryan migration).

 

[LampLighters]

The Toda tribe of the Nilgiris practice caste, asceticism and revere the buffalo despite clearly not being hindu. I always believed that their culture has some similarities with IVC culture especially with clothing, genetics, and importance of buffalo.

I don't think IVC was Dravidian.

 

[Whiteshore]

I don't think IVC was Dravidian.

Then what was it, then?

 

[Practical Lobster]

Then what was it, then?

Does a label like Dravidian even mean anything salient in the context of the Indus Valley Civilization? As far as I know they shared ancestry with early Iranian farmers.

 

[Hannibal The Bannable]

Then what was it, then?

There languages like Burashaki and Nihali in India so they could be That.

I don't think IVC was Dravidian.

The IVC doesn’t need to be Dravidian. The evidence we have seems to suggest a somewhat large scale migration Southwest. The Dravidians could have been nomadic groups who were heavily influenced by the related IVC and migrated out southwest.

There is also the Brahui language which some suggest is a recent migration though there isn’t much genetic or even linguistic evidence ( the closest language Kurkukh in West Bengal and Odisha which is also very distinct from Brahui)for it .

My opinion is that IVC was multi lingual like Mesopotamia with Parts of Balochistan , Sindh , Gujarat being dominated by Dravidian Speakers while having minorities . While the northern Parts could have been dominated by languages like Burashaki.

 

[Hannibal The Bannable]

We know very little of the Rourans , the predecessors of the Turks ? They were apparently overthrown after the Rouran Khan refused to give his daughter in marriage to a Gokturk General .

 

[Whiteshore]

There languages like Burashaki and Nihali in India so they could be That.

Or even the Mundas, for that matter.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

I don't think IVC was Dravidian.

Does a label like Dravidian even mean anything salient in the context of the Indus Valley Civilization? As far as I know they shared ancestry with early Iranian farmers.

It would certainly be parsimonious for the Indus Valley Civilization to have spoken some sort of proto-Dravidian language. After all, expanding on the possible genetic relationship between them and early inhabitants of what is today Iran, it must be noted that many scholars seriously argue for the existence of an Elamo-Dravidian language family.

Here is a crackpot theory that probably has many holes in it: the legend of Kumari Kandam, the lost land of Tamil legend (often known as Lemuria in the west) said to have sunken under the sea in the remote past might be a very, very distant folk memory of the proto-Elamo-Dravidian urheimat in what is today the Persian Gulf, which was flooded thousands of years ago. Given how nearby Mesopotamia was a cradle of civilization, I have read speculation that even older signs of civilization might exist at the bottom of the Gulf, and that the post-Ice Age flooding which pushed survivors away from the coastlines might have helped inspire various mythical deluges.