AHC: Best possible US international reputation by the modern day?

But from a (rest of ) Europe perspective, at least in the 80's, Finland were considered a nation with limited sovereignity whose neutrality being very skewed towards Moscow and that in case of hot war will have sided with the URSS or at least not hindered her war effort. Sure we all knew and understand the Finnish strategic and historical situation, nevetheless nobody, except the far left, had any desire to be in the same position, 'Finlandization' was a threat in the day

That Cold War era Finland had limited sovereignty goes without saying.* But it should not be the end of the discussion (any more than in the WWII years saying that Finland had limited sovereignty vis-a-vis Nazi Germany should be the end of discussion about Finland in 1940-44). The real question is how exactly Finland's sovereignty was limited by the USSR, what were the limits of Finland's freedom of movement, and how could the Finns maintain some independence. And how they practically went about it.

In any case, Finland's position was not one to emulate. It was a unique one. It would be, IMO, kind of silly to consider "Finlandization" as a realistic threat for other countries, as the same combination of factors would not be there for any other nation in the Cold War era. Not even, say, Sweden, close as it was to Finland in several ways. I think that it might be fruitful to view "Finlandization" not as a neutral, objective analysis of Finland and its position (and the risks inherent in it), but rather as a Western, first of all West German, rhetorical/propaganda construct, casting Finland as a cautionary example for the benefit of the audiences in NATO countries.

* And then in this era the same applies to even some of the NATO countries, not only the Warsaw Pact. Take West Germany, say: it's sovereignty was very much limited by other countries, particularly the US.
 
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Sure but you know that you need two for a tango
Actually not really. As someone who (pre covid) trained martial arts as a hobby and has done security work I understand the concept of de-escalation even if the other guy is an unreasonable dickhead.

I know the things you can and should do in good faith before considering threats and violence.
 
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Err the Cold War did not occur because of the nuclear arms race. It's vice versa.
I think they fed each other. Yes the US wanted to point Nukes at the USSR because of ideological conflict that goest back a long way. But the fact that the USSR was pointing nukes at the US scared the US public and this fear caused people to go along with and buy into an ideology of confrontation and conflict. 9/11 didn't cause the conflict the US wages in the middle east. But it sure tipped fuel on the fire and led to public support for said conflict.

Vicious cycle, they both fed each other. Saying one was cause and other effect is simplistic and reductive.
 
I have been following the discussion here, and I think that you are working with a somewhat skewed understanding of Finland's position during the Cold War - at least when looked at from a Finnish perspective.

Saying that Finland proactively did *everything* it expected Moscow to want would be a mischaracterization of the Finnish Kekkonen-era practices, in my view. It would be closer to the mark to say that the Finnish leadership tried to predict what Moscow wanted from Finland, and then proactively did the perceived bare minimum along those lines, to keep the Soviets placated and "off their case", and to be able to advance their actual interests.

The Finnish leadership understood since the end of WWII that Finland had practically ended in the Soviet sphere of influence. The Paris Peace Treaty and the Finno-Soviet Treaty of 1948 made this placement not just de facto but also, to an extent, de jure. Like Paasikivi famously said, "we can't change geography". Finland was in the bear's embrace, but then, again, only to an extent, if we compare it to the nations the Red Army had occupied after the war, which were made into people's republics, and became actual members of the Warsaw Pact.

Practically, the Finnish playbook in the Kekkonen era was to play nice to Moscow, to go through the motions, so that the Soviets don't take a too close interest into Finnish issues. Doing this allowed a measure of leeway the Finns could use to try to slowly integrate the country closer to the Western countries and their economic system. Increasing connections and access to the European societies and international markets was a consistent effort the Finns were doing "under the radar", and as Kekkonen and his allies saw it, it was necessary to have Moscow's trust to reduce Moscow's attention. Had the Finnish government committed to an openly anti-Soviet ideology and policies, the USSR could have used different sources of leverage to make the Finnish government's and nation's position quite difficult.

The Treaty of 1948 was one of those leverages, as de jure it made Finland a Soviet ally in the case of a war against NATO. In peace time, though, this did not apply, especially if Finland was not "under threat of war by Germany and its allies". This situation led to different things in terms of the Finnish defence policies - like Finland buying a lot of Soviet weapons. On one hand, Finland needed to prove to the Soviets that it had a "believable defence" to be able to defend the country against a NATO attack - otherwise, Moscow could argue having to extend its own military umbrella over Finland. On the other hand, in the prevailing situation, due to the Western countries' mistrust towards Finland, the Finns could scarcely buy modern weapons from the US or Britain, say. In many cases, the only way to boost Finnish defence against *any* side was to buy Soviet weapons.

Trade was another leverage. Finland made good business selling roughly Western quality consumer products to the Soviet market, being one of the few easy sources of such the USSR had. This trade, which was built upon the Finnish war reparation production sent to the USSR, amounted to tens of percents of Finnish exports, and included Finland buying raw materials and energy from the USSR at quite affordable prices. This was a double-edged sword - there were obvious benefits in this trade, in terms of the Finnish export industry and national income, but then too much trade with the Soviets risked losing a competitive edge in the Western markets. And, of course, if Moscow decided that it needed to punish Finland for some transgression against it, it would be easy to cancel or postpone important deals and deliveries on bullshit reasons.

The goal of Finland's "friendly" policies towards the USSR were then to try to make lemons into lemonade, make the best of a poor situation, and try to keep Moscow relatively uninterested into Finland so that the country could slowly edge towards the West, and towards greater actual neutrality. Kekkonen's favorite formulation was Finland's "aspiration to neutrality", implicitly admitting for Moscow's benefit that Finland was not fully neutral, and at the same time signalling to the West what Finland really wanted to be - something very closely like Sweden. Working actively for the Nordic project was a part of this effort, to find Finland practical (if not de jure) allies Moscow would not find too objectionable, moving Finland closer to a "Western" community through economic and cultural cooperation.

It was all a game of looking for angles to advance the Finnish national interest, as understood by Kekkonen and his allies. It is true that Kekkonen's monopolization of the presidency, and the overt influence he and his supporters had over the Finnish politics and political process damaged democracy in Finland. In defence of the man, I think it needs to be said that he apparently seems to have worked in good faith to help Finland and also to protect Finnish democracy, as paradoxical as the latter one seems today. If we look at the process in context, though, Kekkonen et al seem to have believed that if Finland did not have a democratic system shaped by them and implicitly curtailed by the demands of their policies, then Finland would stand the real risk of having a non-democratic system shaped by Moscow and explicitly controlled by Soviet demands. In the view of those who supported the "Paasikivi-Kekkonen line", they were defending a narrow Finnish freedom of action against both the far left, who would have given Finland over to direct Soviet control, and the political right, who with their anti-Soviet policies would have invited Moscow to wield its different leverages against Finland to hurt the nation in different ways, while the west could (and likely would) not do anything concrete to help Finland. The logical end point of both those options was significantly increased Soviet control of Finland, the supporters of a "Kekkonian" position could have argued.

Along with the threat of the actual pro-Soviet far left, more pronounced in the late 40s and the 50s, there was by the 70s also a new issue with a "societal Stockholm Syndrome" taking root in also the dominant political parties - younger politicians coming to believe that friendship with Moscow was *the point* of the exercise, not just a smokescreen to allow Finland to do other things. This process, and seeing the aging and increasingly mentally frail Kekkonen as "indispensable" for Finno-Soviet relations, created the particular troubled atmosphere Finland had in the late 70s and early 80s, something very specific for Cold War era Finland.

As to what this all has to do with a theoretical neutral Germany? At the very least we can say that Finland should not be seen as a model of what a neutral Germany would be. The countries' positions would be very different, one of them a small one next to Leningrad, the other one a major country in the middle of Europe. Because Finland was so small and so alone, Moscow could allow it some leeway as long as it saw its interests being sated. With Germany, they could not do the same - allow Germany too much room for independent action, and it will stand a real risk of the Germans "going west" as soon as possible. As it is, I believe that the USSR could not afford a united Germany with any real freedom of action. Connected to this, I do also agree with those who say that the so-called Stalin note was not a bona fide offer, but just a cynical propaganda stunt by the Soviet dictator.
Thanks for this.

I brought up Finland not because everything was perfect but because in my opinion Finland built quite a nice society while negotating and compromising with the USSR. Thanks for making the point about how much better the situation of a neutral germany would have been that the situation of OTL Finland. I brought up Finland not because the situation would be identical but because it was the closest that happened OTL. Neutral Germany would have been much better.

Even if the Stalin note was insincere (something scholars disagree on and there is a debate) had the western powers wanted de-escalation and a neutral germany for the purposes of making war less likely and had this been a priority for which they were willing to negotiate and compromise I think they could have got it.
 
In any case, Finland's position was not one to emulate. It was a unique one. It would be, IMO, kind of silly to consider "Finlandization" as a realistic threat for other countries, as the same combination of factors would not be there for any other nation in the Cold War era. Not even, say, Sweden, close as it was to Finland in several ways. I think that might be fruitful to view "Finlandization" not as a neutral, objective analysis of Finland and its position (and the risks inherent in it), but rather as a Western, first of all West German, propaganda construct, casting Finland as a cautionary example for the benefit of the audiences in NATO countries.

As said, from our perspective during the days of cold war and especially after the beginning of the deployment of the SS20 more than a cautionary tales done for propaganda reason it was a possible option and a very realistic threat.
For us 'Finlandization' meant basically become little more than a protectorate, sure simplicistic and reductive but that was the general perception at the time

Actually not really. As someone who (pre covid) trained martial arts as a hobby and has done security work I understand the concept of de-escalation even if the other guy is an unreasonable dickhead.

I know the things you can and should do in good faith before consdering threats and violence.

Well there is an huge difference between not picking up a fight with a dickhead and international politics, especially if we are talking about Stalin on one side and nation that have seen appeaseament not only failing abysmally but also permitting to the nazi to rearm. Saying, no problem take whatever you want because i'm staying on my little corner, hardly ever worked and as other had pointed out, the note on Germany was not a real attempt to make peace and the Japanese had never had any intention of surrender after the Soviet dow.
Not considering that Uncle Joe already know of the bomb, know all his potential and already wanted one for him, so use it or not use it it's irrilevant for starting the nuclear race.
Finally, i again point out that all your argument can be summed up in: USA bad, need to not interfere while we give everything to the nice dictatorship in Moscow and Beijing, that naturally they fill obbliged to come to a peacefull understanding with us...honestly it will have not improved much the US image and reputation, probably the contrary as it will have be seen as Washington selling all his allies and as usual not caring for the rest of the word
 
Even if the Stalin note was insincere (something scholars disagree on and there is a debate) had the western powers wanted de-escalation and a neutral germany for the purposes of making war less likely and had this been a priority for which they were willing to negotiate and compromise I think they could have got it.

Germany to be credible in his neutrality need to be well armed...and it seem strange but the rest of the continent had some reserve about this; rearmament with West Germany tied to the rest of Europe and under the NATO umbrella is one thing, an independent one? I image everyone not being very happy
 
As said, from our perspective during the days of cold war and especially after the beginning of the deployment of the SS20 more than a cautionary tales done for propaganda reason it was a possible option and a very realistic threat.
For us 'Finlandization' meant basically become little more than a protectorate, sure simplicistic and reductive but that was the general perception at the time

Here we do disagree - I can't see 1980s Finland being a realistic template for how a NATO country could be made into a Soviet "protectorate", given that with getting Finland to where it was in c. 1980 we are talking about developments and processes that had been going on since 1944 by that point, making Finland's path a sui generis one in Europe. Finland never was a member of a Western alliance, and never since 1939 an actual bona fide neutral, either. The European countries where the USSR had less leverage than in Finland were not under a similar risk to become as heavily dominated by Soviet influence as Finland was, and then the countries where the USSR had more leverage were already in the Warsaw Pact.
 
Here we do disagree - I can't see 1980s Finland being a realistic template for how a NATO country could be made into a Soviet "protectorate", given that with getting Finland to where it was in c. 1980 we are talking about developments and processes that had been going on since 1944 by that point, making Finland's path a sui generis one in Europe. Finland never was a member of a Western alliance, and never since 1939 an actual bona fide neutral, either. The European countries where the USSR had less leverage than in Finland were not under a similar risk to become as heavily dominated by Soviet influence as Finland was, and then the countries where the USSR had more leverage were already in the Warsaw Pact.

Again i'm not talking about an accurate historical analysis of the Finnish situation post ww2 in relation of the rest of the continent and all his internal ramification and social developement; i'm talkin on how Finland and his situation (relationship with the URSS included) was generally see and perceived by the general population of western europe and many politicians and when the soviet started to deploy the SS20 and the all euromissile affair started, for many Finlandization for a large swap of the population had become a serious possibility, because yes we were all damned scared that Moscow used that not subtle menace to make us more pliable and/or an incident happen when the Pershing start to be installed and we all die in WW3 (or in a limited war in our continent).
 

marktaha

Banned
Most of the other US crimes came out of cold war policies. A big part of the cold war was the nuclear arms race. Without the nuclear arms race (or with a less extreme one) the cold war is less paranoid, cold war ideology is weaker and harder to sell to the public. Less US coups, proxy wars, interventions, support for tyrants. That was why I focused on Nukes. I have said this repeatedly upthread.

On the USSR I never said it didn't commit crimes. But at their height relative to the US, the USSR economy was about a quarter of the US economy. Military spending less than half. For most of the world, for those not sharing borders with the USSR, it was much less of a threat than the US because its capabilities were less. The historiography peddled by the american education system, media and think tanks exaggerates the threat the USSR posed enormously. To reiterate, I have never said they didnt commit crimes and didnt have malicious intentions - what matters is that their capabilities were never all that much.
The USA was a democracy. The USSR was not.
 
The USA was a democracy. The USSR was not.
The US overthrew countless democracies and replaced them with dictatorships which committed crimes against humanity - that the US actively participated in - as part of its cold war strategy. Sometimes the USSR supported democratic movements, the south african ANC for example (though of course they also did antidemocratic regime change). Outside the US the two generally didn't look all that different except the US was stronger and able to threaten more of the world more effectively.

I have never said 'USSR good'. To say I have would be a massive straw man. My point is that neither could claim moral superiority, the best world would be one where they were both made to de-escalate and back down and that the nicest societies to live in (according to most indicators) are mixed economies which lie somewhere between the sort of society desired by the USSR and the sort of society desired by the USA.

As the economically and militarily stronger side, the side that got nukes first, the side that was least threatened and least traumatised (not losing 20-30 million to the nazis genocide), maybe the US should have been expected to be the 'bigger person' and make the sincere first moves towards de-escalation? Thats just my opinion
 
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Again i'm not talking about an accurate historical analysis of the Finnish situation post ww2 in relation of the rest of the continent and all his internal ramification and social developement; i'm talkin on how Finland and his situation (relationship with the URSS included) was generally see and perceived by the general population of western europe and many politicians and when the soviet started to deploy the SS20 and the all euromissile affair started, for many Finlandization for a large swap of the population had become a serious possibility, because yes we were all damned scared that Moscow used that not subtle menace to make us more pliable and/or an incident happen when the Pershing start to be installed and we all die in WW3 (or in a limited war in our continent).

I see the issue I have here: we have been talking past each other.

Here in Finland, "Finlandization" (or "suomettuminen" as it is in Finnish) is seen as a particular kind of development, which is about the processes of Soviet influence, etc, that led to where Finland was in c. 1980, and examining them, more than about the end result of being under heavy Soviet influence. So when I read about some other country, like West Germany, getting "Finlandized", I will immediately think about those processes of influence and meddling, and so on, as sort of the "beef" of the argument, rather than in the way you seem to be using it: the possibility of a country becoming Soviet-dominated by some way, not necessarily the same way as happened in Finland. From my POV, a country becoming "Finlandized" does not really compute if there is no heavy resemblance in this all with how things actually panned out in Finland IOTL.

So, in short, I have been thinking about the process (and from a particularly Finnish viewpoint at that), while you have been thinking about the end result.
 
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The US overthrew countless democracies and replaced them with dictatorships which committed crimes against humanity - that the US actively participated in - as part of its cold war strategy. Sometimes the USSR supported democratic movements, the south african ANC for example (though of course they also did antidemocratic regime change). Outside the US the two generally didn't look all that different except the US was stronger and able to threaten more of the world more effectively.

I have never said 'USSR good'. To say I have would be a massive straw man. My point is that neither could claim moral superiority, the best world would be one where they were both made to de-escalate and back down and that the nicest societies to live in (according to most indicators) are mixed economies which lie somewhere between the sort of society desired by the USSR and the sort of society desired by the USA.

As the economically and militarily stronger side, the side that got nukes first, the side that was least threatened and least traumatised (not losing 20-30 million to the nazis genocide), maybe the US should have been expected to be the 'bigger person' and make the sincere first moves towards de-escalation? Thats just my opinion
The US did kind of deescalate first. After WWIi the military was gutted and The Soviets were at least briefly trusted by the US to abide by their deals. The Soviets never demobilized to the extent of the quS right after WW2 and pretty openly broke agreements regarding Poland and the Czechs followed by trying to starve the civilian population of West Berlin in direct defiance of the agreements the Soviets had made about the cities occupation.

I am not denying the US did a good amount of nasty shit during the Cold War. But you keep trying to place all of the blame for the Cold War on the US continually trying to justify whatever the Soviets did and ignoring or rewriting significant chunks of history. You make statements condemning Imperialism and colonialism and then openly support it when its not the US or Capitalist countries involved ( Most notably the whole " Korea should have been given to China thing).
 

marktaha

Banned
The US overthrew countless democracies and replaced them with dictatorships which committed crimes against humanity - that the US actively participated in - as part of its cold war strategy. Sometimes the USSR supported democratic movements, the south african ANC for example (though of course they also did antidemocratic regime change). Outside the US the two generally didn't look all that different except the US was stronger and able to threaten more of the world more effectively.

I have never said 'USSR good'. To say I have would be a massive straw man. My point is that neither could claim moral superiority, the best world would be one where they were both made to de-escalate and back down and that the nicest societies to live in (according to most indicators) are mixed economies which lie somewhere between the sort of society desired by the USSR and the sort of society desired by the USA.

As the economically and militarily stronger side, the side that got nukes first, the side that was least threatened and least traumatised (not losing 20-30 million to the nazis genocide), maybe the US should have been expected to be the 'bigger person' and make the sincere first moves towards de-escalation? Thats just my opinion
Was it wrong to have plans to resist a Soviet invasion/takeover?
 
Was it wrong to have plans to resist a Soviet invasion/takeover?
Of course not.

But this sort of behaviour was outrageous poking of a beehive and completely endemic to cold war policy. This wasnt a plan to resist invasion. This was a fake plan of attack intentionally leaked to frighten the russians up. After what they have been through, threatening and intimidating the Russians is only going to make their behaviour worse.
 
In 1950, the East Germany had a population of 18,388,00
In 1950 the West Germany had a population of 50,958,000

The industry in Saxony and Thuringia existed but was not remotely on the scale of the Ruhr

12 million Germans was expelled (or killed) from the Transoder territories including the major industrial region Silesia. USSR got the less valuable out of East Germany because they decided that to expel much of the population, hard to blame the Western Allies for that.
 
The US did kind of deescalate first. After WWIi the military was gutted and The Soviets were at least briefly trusted by the US to abide by their deals. The Soviets never demobilized to the extent of the quS right after WW2 and pretty openly broke agreements regarding Poland and the Czechs followed by trying to starve the civilian population of West Berlin in direct defiance of the agreements the Soviets had made about the cities occupation.

I am not denying the US did a good amount of nasty shit during the Cold War. But you keep trying to place all of the blame for the Cold War on the US continually trying to justify whatever the Soviets did and ignoring or rewriting significant chunks of history. You make statements condemning Imperialism and colonialism and then openly support it when its not the US or Capitalist countries involved ( Most notably the whole " Korea should have been given to China thing).
So I keep mentioning this, no one responds. This was 1945 before anything done by the Soviets which you mention. This is intimidation, the very opposite of de-escalation. This is proof the US did not 'deescalate first'.

Also you either dont read my posts or intentionally ignore things I have said. I never said Korea 'should' have been given to China. I said that in a scenario where the manhattan project experiences a delay and nukes are not used japan surrenders a few months later and the russians occupy all of Korea. This avoids a country being divided on cold war ideological lines and avoids the Korean war so nukes dont get used there either.

There was no 'should' involved. It was a POD and scenario that I consider realistic which would have seriously mitigated the nuclear arms race and so met the criteria of the OP post IMO. I will put this in bold because I have said it before and you ignored me. There was no should involved.

I said if I were to self insert as Truman, I would have demanded a neutral united Korea along the same lines as what I have proposed for Germany. That is not 'giving korea to china'. However this is not the ASB forum and self inserts which completely change the character of historical figures are not what this forum is about. In character Truman would never have done the right thing or what he should. So I came up with a plausible scenario that met certain criteria.
 
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I see the issue I have here: we have been talking past each other.

Here in Finland, "Finlandization" (or "suomettuminen" as it is in Finnish) is seen as a particular kind of development, which is about the processes of Soviet influence, etc, that led to where Finland was in c. 1980, and examining them, more than about the end result of being under heavy Soviet influence. So when I read about some other country, like West Germany, getting "Finlandized", I will immediately think about those processes of influence and meddling, and so on, as sort of the "beef" of the argument, rather than in the way you seem to be using it: the possibility of a country becoming Soviet-dominated by some way, not necessarily the same way as happened in Finland. From my POV, a country becoming "Finlandized" does not really compute if there is no heavy resemblance in this all with how things actually panned out in Finland IOTL.

So, in short, I have been thinking about the process (and from a particularly Finnish viewpoint at that), while you have been thinking about the end result.

Yes, 'Finlandization' in popular terms, at least in western europe during the 80's, mean keeping a certain level of internal independence in exchange of vast amount of collaboration with the URSS and self restriction regarding any criticism towards communism and the SOviet Union; in pratical term become a de facto protectorate at least in popular perception
 
Yes, but once Japan is occupied the US no longer needs China as an ally against Japan.

After WW2 the US was friendly with one of the chinese governments (the one that was hostile to Russia) and hostile to the one that was friendly with Russia. Still, they never trusted the KMT and wanted them frightened.

Of course US military presence in Korea was also to intimidate Russia
The relationship with China did not start because the USA needed an ally against Japan; in fact the reverse is closer to the truth. Also even during the Cold War, not everything about American policy revolved around frightening Russia or the PRC. Also this thread is about improving America's image internationally. Most people around the world do not see the Korean War as an instance of American aggression, because the Communists the aggressors.
That depends how threatened Moscow feels.
Moscow wasn't just reacting out of fear. The USSR was absolutely an imperialist power. If the USA did not oppose them, but returned isolation, then when USSR collapsed, the countries that had recently freed themselves from Soviet puppet regimes would be much more resentful of the USA for abandoning them. Given the number of former Warsaw Pact states (and even former Soviet Republics) that have chosen to join NATO, it's obvious which one much eastern Europe found preferable.
 
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