Was Britain Right to Enter WWI?

Was Britain Right to Enter WWI?

  • Yes

    Votes: 266 56.1%
  • No

    Votes: 223 47.0%

  • Total voters
    474
On August 4, 1914, Britain declared war on Germany. The UK's casus belli was the German invasion of Belgium, which obligated Britain to enforce Belgian neutrality under the terms of the Treaty of London (1839).

Was the United Kingdom right to declare war on Germany? Or should Britain have stayed out of the conflict? You can either answer with the power of hindsight (reflecting upon the declaration of war while keeping in mind the Treaty of Versailles and the rise of Hitler) or simply answer from the standpoint of a Briton in 1914 who can't foresee the outcome of the war.
 
WW1 was an expensive war in both blood and treasure. Let the European powers exhaust themselves and reap the benefits of their stupidity.
 
Yes, both with hindsight and from the perspective on 1914. I often say the same thing about World War I that I do to people who suggest that Britain should have sat out World War II - the idea that a triumphant Germany who has just utterly defeated the entire European continent is just going to allow Britain to carry on governing the world as it had done is preposterous.

There would have been a confrontation at same point, and Britain would have been massively disadvantaged.
 
They had close to a million dead, went broke, fought a worse war 25 years later, went even more broke, lost their empire, and became dependent on the US. Millions of your colonial subjects died in the second war. Both sides resort to attempts to strangle the civilian population in order to win.

If your goal is to maintain the empire it failed. If your goal is to maintain some kind of long term peace it failed. If your goal is to remain first among the Great Powers it failed. If your goal is maintain British 1914 social structure it failed.

Who cares if Germany becomes dominant? At worst you establish a special relationship with them as their greatest ally, similar to their OTL relationship with the US or EU. Germany might not even become dominant. Russia bounced back from an even worse period than Germany in WWI to become the number two power. Germany might need two years to win the war and find itself exhausted for the next decade while you grow richer selling to both sides.
 
Yes, both with hindsight and from the perspective on 1914. I often say the same thing about World War I that I do to people who suggest that Britain should have sat out World War II - the idea that a triumphant Germany who has just utterly defeated the entire European continent is just going to allow Britain to carry on governing the world as it had done is preposterous.

There would have been a confrontation at same point, and Britain would have been massively disadvantaged.
I agree which is why I think that even if the Germans didn't attack through Belgium the British would have found some reason to join the war. Morality was irrelevant to the decision to enter the war for the government.
 
They had close to a million dead, went broke, fought a worse war 25 years later, went even more broke, lost their empire, and became dependent on the US. Millions of your colonial subjects died in the second war. Both sides resort to attempts to strangle the civilian population in order to win.

If your goal is to maintain the empire it failed. If your goal is to maintain some kind of long term peace it failed. If your goal is to remain first among the Great Powers it failed. If your goal is maintain British 1914 social structure it failed.

Who cares if Germany becomes dominant? At worst you establish a special relationship with them as their greatest ally, similar to their OTL relationship with the US or EU. Germany might not even become dominant. Russia bounced back from an even worse period than Germany in WWI to become the number two power. Germany might need two years to win the war and find itself exhausted for the next decade while you grow richer selling to both sides.

You fundamentally misunderstand the entire basis of British foreign policy since 1453 if you think that is a reasonable statement.

A "dominant" Germany in Europe means, by definition, an economically destroyed Britain. This is why Britain - belatedly - intervened in the Napoleonic Wars. Once a European power established themselves as hegemon, trade barriers are erected to disadvantage Britain.

There is no reasonable scenario where a triumphant Germany allows British exports to Europe to continue at the same terms as they were before. A triumphant Germany - especially one exhausted by the economic strain of war - will establish an economic system reminiscent of the Continental System...or, without straying to far into chattish territory...a similarly constructed system of European-wide trade and economic policies.

Either Britain enters the fight in 1914, it enters later on less favourable terms once the Germans have surrounded Paris, or it enters into a highly damaging economic war with the new European hegemon, which leads to a separate confrontation where Britain is even more disadvantaged.

All roads lead to war, I'm afraid.
 
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Riain

Banned
They had close to a million dead, went broke, fought a worse war 25 years later, went even more broke, lost their empire, and became dependent on the US. Millions of your colonial subjects died in the second war. Both sides resort to attempts to strangle the civilian population in order to win.

If your goal is to maintain the empire it failed. If your goal is to maintain some kind of long term peace it failed. If your goal is to remain first among the Great Powers it failed. If your goal is maintain British 1914 social structure it failed.

These are more the results of how Britain fought the war than whether the decision to go to war in the circumstances was right or wrong. If they won with less casualties and lower financial cost and were able to contain Germany, Italy and Japan more effectively in the 30s WW1 the right or wrong question would look quite different.
 
The British were lucky that the war didn’t go completely straight for them.If WW1 was a short decisive victory,it would have resulted in a super Russia more powerful than the Germans could have dream of.
 
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You fundamentally misunderstand the entire basis of British foreign policy since 1453 if you think that is a reasonable statement.

A "dominant" Germany in Europe means, by definition, an economically destroyed Britain. This is why Britain - belatedly - intervened in the Napoleonic Wars. Once a European power established themselves as hegemon, trade barriers are erected to disadvantage Britain.

There is no reasonable scenario where a triumphant Germany allows British exports to Europe to continue at the same terms as they were before. A triumphant Germany - especially one exhausted by the economic strain of war - will establish an economic system reminiscent of the Continental System...or, without straying to far into chattish territory...a similarly constructed system of European-wide trade and economic policies.

Either Britain enters the fight in 1914, it enters later on less favourable terms once the Germans have surrounded Paris, or it enters into a highly damaging economic war with the new European hegemon, which leads to a separate confrontation where Britain is even more disadvantaged.

All roads lead to war, I'm afraid.
So, we need

1: Germany to win

2: The German Empire‘s domination to last

3: The German Empire to decide to Britain is a foe

4: Germany to decide locking Britain out of trade to be worth the cost of losing a major trade partner

5: The German Empire to not change its mind

6: The German Empires domination of Europe to include a broad degree of control over
trade, not just taking land or calling for reparations.

7: The amount of trade lost exceeds the virtual shutdown of the civilian economy during the war and OTL interwar protectionism.

8: The amount of trade Britain loses to be enough to collapse the economy

9: This collapse outweighs the ludicrous cost of WWI

10: The economy does not bounce back after a decade, as tends to happen with countries with strong institutions and human capital.

11: Europe’s economy does not end up under the dominance of the US or Russia anyways.

12: This makes up for the death toll, trauma, and loss of freedom the war represented.
 
So, we need

1: Germany to win

2: The German Empire‘s domination to last

3: The German Empire to decide to Britain is a foe

4: Germany to decide locking Britain out of trade to be worth the cost of losing a major trade partner

5: The German Empire to not change its mind

6: The German Empires domination of Europe to include a broad degree of control over
trade, not just taking land or calling for reparations.

7: The amount of trade lost exceeds the virtual shutdown of the civilian economy during the war and OTL interwar protectionism.

8: The amount of trade Britain loses to be enough to collapse the economy

9: This collapse outweighs the ludicrous cost of WWI

10: The economy does not bounce back after a decade, as tends to happen with countries with strong institutions and human capital.

11: Europe’s economy does not end up under the dominance of the US or Russia anyways.

12: This makes up for the death toll, trauma, and loss of freedom the war represented.
um you do realize that germany explicitly even before ww1 publicly announced its dream of a Mittleuropa economic customs union? (thanks Bothmann-Hollwegg) which basically meant Britain would be economically disadvantaged on the continent?

Much of your argument comes from hindsight. For the great powers of 1914, all previous wars had been short and didn't make a lot of damage to the economy. Even the Crimean War hardly affected the day to day lives of the ordinary citizens back at the country's base.

In 1914, Britain knew due Hollwegg's exclaimations that a German victory meant Britain's economy either being shut out of Europe, or being subjected to massively higher rates of tariffs and customs, which was unacceptable to the commerce minded government.
 
Geopolitically yes, it would be very stupid not to oppose Germany from becoming a European hegemon.

WW1 was an expensive war in both blood and treasure. Let the European powers exhaust themselves and reap the benefits of their stupidity.

They had close to a million dead, went broke, fought a worse war 25 years later, went even more broke, lost their empire, and became dependent on the US. Millions of your colonial subjects died in the second war. Both sides resort to attempts to strangle the civilian population in order to win.

If your goal is to maintain the empire it failed. If your goal is to maintain some kind of long term peace it failed. If your goal is to remain first among the Great Powers it failed. If your goal is maintain British 1914 social structure it failed.

Who cares if Germany becomes dominant? At worst you establish a special relationship with them as their greatest ally, similar to their OTL relationship with the US or EU. Germany might not even become dominant. Russia bounced back from an even worse period than Germany in WWI to become the number two power. Germany might need two years to win the war and find itself exhausted for the next decade while you grow richer selling to both sides.

What do you think a dominant Germany would have been like? They would have probably ended up with a big portion of France's Navy and would have had the full resources of Mitteleuropa to build up a fleet to challenge Britain. Add to that them becoming a much more attractive partner to countries like the Ottoman Empire, Bulgaria, Italy, etc. a border/probably ports much closer to Britain, and new colonies that could support greater force projection globally. If the Germans had stomped France and Russia, they would be in a position to challenge and defeat the last remaining power that could stand in the way of their hegemony in Europe, and based on the mentality of the Kaiserreich they almost without a doubt would have done so. Imagine what a Germany like that with its other European allies, a fully functional Berlin to Baghdad Railway, a navy on level with the RN, that amount of resources and force projection, etc. could have done to Britain.

I agree which is why I think that even if the Germans didn't attack through Belgium the British would have found some reason to join the war. Morality was irrelevant to the decision to enter the war for the government.

You fundamentally misunderstand the entire basis of British foreign policy since 1453 if you think that is a reasonable statement.

A "dominant" Germany in Europe means, by definition, an economically destroyed Britain. This is why Britain - belatedly - intervened in the Napoleonic Wars. Once a European power established themselves as hegemon, trade barriers are erected to disadvantage Britain.

There is no reasonable scenario where a triumphant Germany allows British exports to Europe to continue at the same terms as they were before. A triumphant Germany - especially one exhausted by the economic strain of war - will establish an economic system reminiscent of the Continental System...or, without straying to far into chattish territory...a similarly constructed system of European-wide trade and economic policies.

Either Britain enters the fight in 1914, it enters later on less favourable terms once the Germans have surrounded Paris, or it enters into a highly damaging economic war with the new European hegemon, which leads to a separate confrontation where Britain is even more disadvantaged.

All roads lead to war, I'm afraid.

The British are lucky that the war didn’t go completely straight for them.If WW1 was a short decisive victory,it would have resulted in a super Russia more powerful than the Germans could have dream of.

And then the British could have played them off against the other powers on the continent like France, the remainder of Germany, the Ottomans, etc.

This is why Britain went with a policy of preventing any one continental power from getting too powerful, they always made sure it wasn't going to be one power vs. them.

So, we need

1: Germany to win

2: The German Empire‘s domination to last

3: The German Empire to decide to Britain is a foe

4: Germany to decide locking Britain out of trade to be worth the cost of losing a major trade partner

5: The German Empire to not change its mind

6: The German Empires domination of Europe to include a broad degree of control over
trade, not just taking land or calling for reparations.

7: The amount of trade lost exceeds the virtual shutdown of the civilian economy during the war and OTL interwar protectionism.

8: The amount of trade Britain loses to be enough to collapse the economy

9: This collapse outweighs the ludicrous cost of WWI

10: The economy does not bounce back after a decade, as tends to happen with countries with strong institutions and human capital.

11: Europe’s economy does not end up under the dominance of the US or Russia anyways.

12: This makes up for the death toll, trauma, and loss of freedom the war represented.

The Germans literally explicitly planned to do all of that in their Mitteleuropa plan, cut the UK out of continental trade, maintain land control of the areas they took, etc. And if there's anything that is obvious about Kaiser Wilhelm II, the guy who's going to be running the show until at least the 1940s, he wasn't the sort who would change his mind on anything and he was an extremely aggressive militarist to boot.

The only way Britain could have managed to beat the resulting military buildup and loss of trade in this scenario would be to pursue a policy of economic integration with the U.S. plus taking massive loans from them that would have made them even more dependent than IOTL, and it would still leave them in a whole lot of danger from Germany.
 
With hindsight, probably not. Germany's capacity to actually enforce a serious hegemony over a Europe in which there are still 3-4 other Great Powers in play (Britain, some version Russia, Italy, and yes Austria-Hungary) is going to be fairly limited. The United States has similar geopolitical interests to the British Empire in terms of containing German power globally, while Germany itself is hardly going to be champing at the bit to overthrow Britain without serious motivation. The European societies under normal circumstances were not actually that war-like, and were becoming increasingly less so. Given the cost, the UK would've done its people better by staying out.

Given what the British could reasonably be expected to know at the time though, it is much more difficult to blame their entry (conduct, not so much). Germany had been highly provocative for years, and was invading France without anything other than a flimsy hypothetical justification. What a victorious Germany would actually do was unknown, and Britain had treaty obligations. Under those circumstances, most reasonable people living in that cultural context would at least consider war a valid policy option.
 
um you do realize that germany explicitly even before ww1 publicly announced its dream of a Mittleuropa economic customs union? (thanks Bothmann-Hollwegg) which basically meant Britain would be economically disadvantaged on the continent?

Much of your argument comes from hindsight. For the great powers of 1914, all previous wars had been short and didn't make a lot of damage to the economy. Even the Crimean War hardly affected the day to day lives of the ordinary citizens back at the country's base.

In 1914, Britain knew due Hollwegg's exclaimations that a German victory meant Britain's economy either being shut out of Europe, or being subjected to massively higher rates of tariffs and customs, which was unacceptable to the commerce minded government.
If you're talking about the Napkinprogramm er I mean Septemberprogramm, umm, yeah right :p
Germany would've found attempting to be the economic hegemon of Europe like herding cats... It didn't work for Nap, it wouldn't have worked for Willy either.
A victorious German Empire may have found hegemony over Europe more costly than defeat turned out to be in the long run...
If the UK had "sat this one out", her three biggest geopolitical rivals would've bashed each other over their heads until they were senseless... IMO being the last man standing is usually a good thing...
 
If you're talking about the Napkinprogramm er I mean Septemberprogramm, umm, yeah right :p
Germany would've found attempting to be the economic hegemon of Europe like herding cats... It didn't work for Nap, it wouldn't have worked for Willy either.
A victorious German Empire may have found hegemony over Europe more costly than defeat turned out to be in the long run...
If the UK had "sat this one out", her three biggest geopolitical rivals would've bashed each other over their heads until they were senseless... IMO being the last man standing is usually a good thing...
i am getting this from Imperial Germany, 1850-1918 Edgar Feuchtwanger but in 1913 in front of the reichstag Hollwegg proudly proclaimed his and the government of germany's desire to shut out British economic dominance from the continent by creating an anti-british economic bloc. A proto-Septemberprogram was already in the works and known by Britain, which was why they acted.

Last man standing has never been European geopolitical strategy since 1453. It makes little sense in 1914 great powers politics.
 
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