Wank the SEPECAT Jaguar
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
Give it the Radar from the Sea Harrier to give it some interception capability for countries that can't afford a first rate interceptor.
Deleted member 94680
Why mess with something that’s perfect?
Don’t you dare mess with the flying canopener.
Well, obviously.
The Mk 104 was a pretty substantial improvement for the flight profiles the Jaguar took. Surprisingly enough a super fancy dry version came in the 2010s for UCAV demonstrators. I'm not sure the Adour really got the love it deserved afater the Mk 104/106, and I think had Dassault not favored its Mirage F1 after the merger the Jaguar would have evolved a lot more. That said, that'd require either the F1 being killed (maybe the AdA grows some balls and purchases a large interceptor which makes the cheap Jaguar even more relevant for A2G?) or Dassault choosing to use it only for air defense and focusing on the Jaguar for A2G.Good so far
Installation of the better radar might be accompanied with raising the cockpit a bit, but not as much as the Harrier received? Any hope for increase of engine power, those Adours were not with exactly sparky thrust to weight ratio?
Riain
Banned
In 1961 the P1154-RAF was to replace the Hunter FGA models in RAF service by 1969. In 1962 AST362 to replace the Gnat and Hunter T7 in the advanced trainer roles.
Once Dassault pulled out of NMBR3 after May 1962 because the Mirage IIIV wasn't selected the winner the British Air Ministry drops the P1154 the decides that the P1127 and the AST362 will replace all models of the Hunter and Gnat. 60 Harrier get ordered in 1967 as do 90 Jaguar S and 110 Jaguar B in 1968, effectively replacing the 164 P1154-RAF requirement.
The rest writes itself.
Once Dassault pulled out of NMBR3 after May 1962 because the Mirage IIIV wasn't selected the winner the British Air Ministry drops the P1154 the decides that the P1127 and the AST362 will replace all models of the Hunter and Gnat. 60 Harrier get ordered in 1967 as do 90 Jaguar S and 110 Jaguar B in 1968, effectively replacing the 164 P1154-RAF requirement.
The rest writes itself.
Yes, I think a good way to make the Jaguar more deserving of an upgrade is to simply buy more of them.
RyoSaeba69
Banned
Stop complaining, French Jaguars kept their Mk.102 until the very end in 2007, in African climates, and hauling massive AS-37 Martel missiles.
In 1986 and 1987 they kicked Gadhaffi ugly arse, twice, flying out of Chad with F1 flying cover.
Over. Dassault. dead. body. ROTFL. You would have better luck with a surviving Breguet carving itself a niche between Aérospatiale (public company) and Dassault (private).
Naval aircraft, trainers, international cooperations: even OTL, they got some successes before Dassautl ate them in 1968-71.
It would need a pod in the mid-50's with Louis Breguet (died 1955) getting a strong heir at the head of the company. OTL Breguet picked the wrong horses - NATO and International partnerships (Jaguar). They had nonelethess a string of successes (Alizé, Atlantic, Jaguar, and the Alphajet was their last baby, Breguet 1260).
Maybe Henry Potez could step in - he bought the Fouga Magister's company instead, circa 1958. Potez perfectly knew Dassault: they were pals since WWI, born the same year 1892. Hell of an idea, I should start a separate thread...
I said it more in the sense that equivalent avionics to the F1EQ-5/6 exports would be nice, but yes the success of the Jaguar mostly relies on Dassault not buying Breguet. Your POD seems interesting...
Anyway, the first problems happened when several prototypes were lost due to the Adour's problems. Given that some Speys had the same problems at first I'm not sure that RR could plausibly do better. This also delayed the aircraft which had somewhat worse timing for exports (I will get to that). With all that said for all the Adour's flaws the Jaguar would have been much more successful without Dassault's interference (though Dassault could probably outbid the Jag anyway). Once Dassault took over, Anglo-French cooperation died and meant that efforts to upgrade the Jaguar were not coordinated. Dassault also prevented Bac from selling the Jag abroad for a while, again ruining the timing as more advanced aircrafts entered the picture.
Let's look at the export potential the Jag had:
- Brazil and Argentina were highly interested in the Jaguar M variant. The latter actually wasn't as bad as it's commonly viewed. Had Adour 102s been fitted throttle response would have been much better. Moreover the M05 prototype with those changes and the big wing to improve handling and fuel capacity (the MN found it had too little range) was never finished in that version. Of course a new wing is an expensive and risky option, and the Jaguar would have been too expensive for the number of aircrafts the Aéronavale wanted. That said the Super Etendard entered service far later than the Jag M would have, probably suffered from inflation and proved more expensive than originally claimed. The M probably had a chance if Dassault wasn't involved and France cancelled something else.
- Japan wanted to license produce the Jag, but high royalties meant they preferred to design the F-1 with the Jag's lead designer's help. Japanese projects always tended to be rather expensive however and IIRC Japan got far less F-1s than they wanted. Had SEPECAT been more compromizing (although maybe this was post-merger already?), Japan might have got a good amount of Jags instead.
- Turkey also approached the British in 1973 for a license production agreement of up to 200, and later on in 75 they wanted to change that to British-produced planes, somthing like 24. That said given Turkish political developments this was perhaps always doomed to fail...
-Nigeria wanted to buy a second batch, but corruption led to budget issues which meant this was killed. Again this is more dependent on Nigerian politics than on SEPECAT...
-Kuwait wanted 50 (along with 16 Mirage 5s) but got Mirage F1s. Dassault's interference.
-Pakistan wanted some, got Mirage Vs instead. Dassault's interference (or maybe British govt interfence due to the arms embargo on Pakistan?)
-Belgium fought about buying up to 106 aircrafts, 90 being Mirage Vs and the remainder Jaguars. In the end they only got Vs. This was a highly political buy (if not outright corruption, this is Belgium we're talking about). Maybe there could have been more Jags.
The other countries that were approached were Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany and Australia. However I'm afraid that none were really looking for it, although had there been a strong push by the Anglo-French towards enhanced versions it might have snatched orders before the MRCA became too strong.
There was a rather impressive variant developped by BAC in 1976, the P.97 by BAC:
It would have featured a big wing with extra stores, composite construction, fly-by-wire controls and either the significantly upgraded RB.409s or Adour 63 Dash. Again, cooperation could have got us a very impressive aircraft. The amount of Adour projects is staggering.
Jaguar MO5, Royal Australian Navy, 1983
In 1971, the Aéronavale trialled the Jaguar M aboard Clemenceau. The outcome was generally successful but it was felt that a larger wing (15%) and more powerful engines were required to make the aircraft a success. SEPECAT therefore initiated design work to produce a larger wing, with blown flaps and more powerful, dry thrust, engines.
The result was the Jaguar M1. A single-seat naval attack aircraft. The M2 was a two seater trainer version. This was adopted by the Aéronavale in 1977. However, its all weather attack capabilities were limited without a surface search radar. Initial thought was to add the Agave radar to the centreline drop tank and trials were carried out with this configuration but in doing so, limited the amount of fuel that could be carried in the pod and reduced the radar's range due to the vibration experienced when carried on the centre-line weapons station (this produced the unusual effect of effectively "stuttering" the radar, which meant that false returns were detected, so that targets appeared further away than they actually were or displaced in one or two dimensions by an appreciable distance).
The Aéronavale therefore requested a version of the Jaguar M with an Agava radar system in the nose. SEPECAT duly complied and produced the M4. This was a much more successful version and worked well. India, seeking an maritime strike version of the Jaguar was later to adapt this to its land-based license built version of the Jaguar as the Jaguar IM but that came later.
In 1979, the Royal Australian Navy was seeking a new carrier, to replace its aging Majestic Class, HMAS Melbourne. France, sensing the possibility of a windfall sale, both of a carrier and aircraft, offered a revised Clemenceau class, with a slightly longer hull and flight deck, with a commensurate increase in tonnage. The aircraft on offer were to be SEPECAT Jaguar Ms and Mirage F1Ms. However, France was not exactly flavour of the month in the Pacific, with its ongoing nuclear tests in the region and so any major purchase from them was politically unpalatable. The British offered as an alternative a commercial design adapted to a carrier, built to the cheaper and simpler requirements of a commercial hull. They offered the SEPECAT Jaguar M as strike aircraft and as fighters as well.
The RAN decided to go with the British offering, the Australian Government unwilling to spend the required funds for a dedicated carrier design. HMAS Australia entered service in 1982. It carried an airwing of 24 Jaguars and 12 A-4G Skyhawks, Trackers and helicopters. The Jaguar version chosen was the Jaguar MO5, a two seat version of the Jaguar MO (for "Ostralien") equipped with the Agave radar. The RAN felt that the duties required of the Jaguar was more suited to a two seat aircraft, rather than a single seat one.
The aircraft depicted is a Jaguar MO5 of VF-805 Squadron, HMAS Australia in 1983, when it arrived in Australia after its delivery journey from the UK. It is shown carrying a typical anti-shipping strike weapons load of an AM-39 Exocet missile, with two Matra Magic 550 IR missiles, as well as drop tanks. It carries the VF-805 symbol of a chess Knight on the tail.
The Kit
The model is a Hasagawa Jaguar T2 with Hasagawa Mitsubishi F1 outer wing panels and single wheel main gear. The nose gear came out of the spares box. The missiles from the Heller weapons set. The radome comes from a Jaguar IM resin nose conversion (Flightline?).
Amazing job 
If I'm reading the above comments right, we need to remove Breguet from Marcel's hands in order for Jaguar to stand better chances.
Something needs to be done with powerplant - two afterburning Adours were much heavier than one RB-199 for same thrust, 3300 lbs vs. 2150 lbs respective weight figures.
If I'm reading the above comments right, we need to remove Breguet from Marcel's hands in order for Jaguar to stand better chances.
Something needs to be done with powerplant - two afterburning Adours were much heavier than one RB-199 for same thrust, 3300 lbs vs. 2150 lbs respective weight figures.
RyoSaeba69
Banned
Very cute, sleek model.
There is also the fact that the Jaguar was a specialized attack type when the tendency on foreign markets was multirole and air superiority, in that order.
Also the British were not under Dassault influence, they could have (and tried) to sell ad improve the aircraft, but the 70's were such hell for British economy...
The Jaguar was among contenders of the Deal of the Century - along Viggen and F1-M53. It didn't went very far.
No idea why the Adour sucked so much. It was a miniature RB.172, the AFVG engine and an ancestor of the RB.199 of tornado fame.
Maybe it just didn't scaled down well - just like the full-scale Gyron being a good engine but the Junior, a pile of horse manure in the Buccaneer S.1
There is also the fact that the Jaguar was a specialized attack type when the tendency on foreign markets was multirole and air superiority, in that order.
Also the British were not under Dassault influence, they could have (and tried) to sell ad improve the aircraft, but the 70's were such hell for British economy...
The Jaguar was among contenders of the Deal of the Century - along Viggen and F1-M53. It didn't went very far.
No idea why the Adour sucked so much. It was a miniature RB.172, the AFVG engine and an ancestor of the RB.199 of tornado fame.
Maybe it just didn't scaled down well - just like the full-scale Gyron being a good engine but the Junior, a pile of horse manure in the Buccaneer S.1
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There was a RB-199 Jaguar proposal later on.Amazing job
If I'm reading the above comments right, we need to remove Breguet from Marcel's hands in order for Jaguar to stand better chances.
Something needs to be done with powerplant - two afterburning Adours were much heavier than one RB-199 for same thrust, 3300 lbs vs. 2150 lbs respective weight figures.
Actually not just the RB.199 but also a lift engine and a 24" radar dish for the RN version. Enough payload for two Harpoons and 2 Sidewinders it seems.
Was it necessarily? Britain did not seem exactly averse to selling arms to dictatorships. If it was willing to sell destroyers to the Argentine junta and submarines to Chile...
Of course Turkey's ability to finance licence production of Jaguar given their economic troubles in the 1970s may be more questionable.
It's more because Britain itself was involved in solving the Cyprus crisis and I don't really see a deal with Turkey being made before that event and after that...it's quite bad PR