Mary I Succeeds after early death of Henry

[Andrewtsal]

So this is an idea I’ve been thinking about writing a timeline where Mary succeeds to the throne early before the start of the great matter. Mostly posting to ask about ideas and whether there would be any interest.

My first though would be Catherine of Aragon would be likely be regent for Mary’s minority, while the issue of who Mary will marry will be the principle issue of the day. Catherine would likely want Mary to marry her nephew Charles V, but I think much like in otl he wouldn’t wait for her to age. So my thought would be instead we get a domestic marriage, a French marriage, or a way to settle potential succession issues marry her to the future James V to settle the succession.

 

[Victoria]

I think Catherine would realize that Mary getting married to Charles V would be a logistical nightmare. If she wants Mary to marry one of her nephews, then one of Manuel of Portugal's younger sons would be better. Luis, duke of Beja or his brother Ferdinand could come live in England and they would probably be more accepted by the nobles since they would have little power on their own. A domestic marriage has that same advantage but it could be seen as favouring one family over others and cause trouble that way. The Woodvilles are still within living memory.
I like the idea of James V, but I don't know if Catherine and the regency council (or Mary herself if she's old enough) would consider it. Although if the desire for a male heir on the throne is greater than their distrust of Scotland, it could end up with James and Mary ruling together and uniting Great Britain like Fernándo and Isabel did in Spain.

 

[isabella]

Kill off Henry AFTER Charles' wedding to Isabella (because he would be more than willing to wait for Mary if she is already Queen of England). A wedding between Mary and a prince of Portugal is NOT in the best interest of Spain or Charles V, so they will not be taken in consideration (and no way Mary will marry in France if her mother had a say in the matter). I think Charles would likely push for a match between Mary and James V of Scotland (and Catherine and Mary herself would likely find of their own who he is the best solution)

 

[Fabius Maximus]

I like the idea of James V, but I don't know if Catherine and the regency council (or Mary herself if she's old enough) would consider it. Although if the desire for a male heir on the throne is greater than their distrust of Scotland, it could end up with James and Mary ruling together and uniting Great Britain like Fernándo and Isabel did in Spain.

I think a Scottish match would be quite likely personally, precisely as a way of neutralising any potential threat from the north.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think a Scottish match would be quite likely personally, precisely as a way of neutralising any potential threat from the north.

And would end Auld Alliance-Charles V would be happy about that, as it would hurt his French enemies.

 

[isabella]

And would end Auld Alliance-Charles V would be happy about that, as it would hurt his French enemies.

Exactly. Once he is already married, Charles will most likely support James as husband for Mary because is the only candidate who would give some advantage to himself

 

[Geoffrey1016]

I think a Scottish match would be quite likely personally, precisely as a way of neutralising any potential threat from the north.

Most candidates for Mary would be within the range needed for a dispensation.
James V of Scotland would be an ideal choice, as it would be easy for the joint monarchs to travel to each other's realm.
Indeed, in Philippa Gregory's Three Sister, Three Queens, Margaret Tudor mentioned that she could travel back to England whenever she wanted as Queen of Scots, but Catherine would never see her parents again. This is the biggest advantage for a Scottish-English match.
However, the Scottish Parliament would likely veto the marriage, citing that it was against Scotland's basic national interest and that any joint monarch would likely ignore them.
Duke of Beja would be a good idea, but would this true unification of Lancaster and York(as Duke of Beja was one of the most senior descendants of Blanche of Lancaster) work out?

 

[isabella]

Most candidates for Mary would be within the range needed for a dispensation.
James V of Scotland would be an ideal choice, as it would be easy for the joint monarchs to travel to each other's realm.
Indeed, in Philippa Gregory's Three Sister, Three Queens, Margaret Tudor mentioned that she could travel back to England whenever she wanted as Queen of Scots, but Catherine would never see her parents again. This is the biggest advantage for a Scottish-English match.
However, the Scottish Parliament would likely veto the marriage, citing that it was against Scotland's basic national interest and that any joint monarch would likely ignore them.
Duke of Beja would be a good idea, but would this true unification of Lancaster and York(as Duke of Beja was one of the most senior descendants of Blanche of Lancaster) work out?

Scottish parliament is unlikely to vetoed it as the match has advantages also for them (and being less under the control of their King was NOT seen as a bad thing for them). Beja is pretty unlikely and would NOT a give any true advantage to England, unlike the Scottish match (also Charles V would be pretty much against such match who would only damage him and considering who Catherine was a pretty strong supporter of Spanish interest and who both her and Mary trusted a lot Charles I can not see that match happening).

 

[Geoffrey1016]

Scottish parliament is unlikely to vetoed it as the match has advantages also for them (and being less under the control of their King was NOT seen as a bad thing for them). Beja is pretty unlikely and would NOT a give any true advantage to England, unlike the Scottish match (also Charles V would be pretty much against such match who would only damage him and considering who Catherine was a pretty strong supporter of Spanish interest and who both her and Mary trusted a lot Charles I can not see that match happening).

And there's no free Habsburg for Mary to marry-----Ferdinand already married Anna Jagiellon, and Charles V to Isabella of Portugal. In OTL Henry VIII tried to marry Mary to Francis, Duke of Brittany and Dauphin of Viennois, during the time England and Spain were at odd with each other, but Catherine would not allow this. Once Henry died(probably assassination by an angry Scot who tried to assassinate Henry and Catherine to avenge the death of his king), James V would be the only realistic choice for Mary to marry......But wait, France would not approve this, and Scotland would not risk its ancient alliance with France for a marriage of two monarchs.
The biggest nightmare for a Scot in 1500s was to be conquered by the English, after all.

 

[isabella]

And there's no free Habsburg for Mary to marry-----Ferdinand already married Anna Jagiellon, and Charles V to Isabella of Portugal. In OTL Henry VIII tried to marry Mary to Francis, Duke of Brittany and Dauphin of Viennois, during the time England and Spain were at odd with each other, but Catherine would not allow this. Once Henry died(probably assassination by an angry Scot who tried to assassinate Henry and Catherine to avenge the death of his king), James V would be the only realistic choice for Mary to marry......But wait, France would not approve this, and Scotland would not risk its ancient alliance with France for a marriage of two queens.

A match between Mary and James V would be most useful for Charles V AND Scotland has NO REASON for rejecting that. the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland was entirely AGAINST England so if the King of Scotland can get the crown of England (and he was also the next-in-line after Mary) how much do you think he need French support or friendship?

 

[Geoffrey1016]

A match between Mary and James V would be most useful for Charles V AND Scotland has NO REASON for rejecting that. the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland was entirely AGAINST England so if the King of Scotland can get the crown of England (and he was also the next-in-line after Mary) how much do you think he need French support or friendship?

Things would go in the Isabella-Ferdinand way, until if James V did die in 1542 as OTL. Now a reversed Ferdinand-Joanna situation would exist. Mary would try to exert her power in Scotland, and would the new King/Queen of Scots and Prince/Princess of Wales(I personally believe that Mary would change the "Prince of Wales" title into a generic title for an heir, like "Prince/Princess of Asturias" in Castile and "Prince/Princess of Girona" in Aragon) succumb to the fate of Joanna of Castile? We don't know.

 

[isabella]

Things would go in the Isabella-Ferdinand way, until if James V did die in 1542 as OTL. Now a reversed Ferdinand-Joanna situation would exist. Mary would try to exert her power in Scotland, and would the new King/Queen of Scots and Prince/Princess of Wales(I personally believe that Mary would change the "Prince of Wales" title into a generic title for an heir, like "Prince/Princess of Asturias" in Castile and "Prince/Princess of Girona" in Aragon) succumb to the fate of Joanna of Castile? We don't know.

James would most likely live longer than OTL and Mary would have little to no power in Scotland if not as regent (but not the only one) for her child. For what reason her heir would have any troubles from his mother? You are mixing totally different situations

 

[Geoffrey1016]

OTL coat of arms of James VI. In this TL James V and Mary's child would likely bear a coat of arms similar to these ones.
If James V died in 1542 while Mary died in 1558, then the child(let's name the child James if a boy and Catherine if a girl) would need to wait for 16 years as King/Queen of Scots before getting the English throne. Nobody would like to relinquish his/her power, and Mary would likely assume regency in Scotland. As the situation in which a monarch of one country is also regent of another country has arose, the Earl of Arran, as second in line to the Scottish throne, would likely become the de facto ruler in Scotland.
The Earl would likely have a vested interest in locking his young king/queen up like what happened to Joanna of Castile by declaring him/her insane once the king/queen entered his/her teens, so he could rule in his/her stead alongside Mary of England, and to prevent any heir from being issued from her and thus displacing him down the table, except that Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox, would denounce this as the treason of the f*king bastard, as part of the Arran-Lennox rivalry(as Matthew Stewart believed that the Earl of Arran was illegitimate). As a result, a full Joanna of Castile scenario would not be replicated in its totality in Scotland, and once Mary died, the new monarch would be able to do what he/she wanted as the monarch of both countries.

 

[VVD0D95]

OTL coat of arms of James VI. In this TL James V and Mary's child would likely bear a coat of arms similar to these ones.
If James V died in 1542 while Mary died in 1558, then the child(let's name the child James if a boy and Catherine if a girl) would need to wait for 16 years as King/Queen of Scots before getting the English throne. Nobody would like to relinquish his/her power, and Mary would likely assume regency in Scotland. As the situation in which a monarch of one country is also regent of another country has arose, the Earl of Arran, as second in line to the Scottish throne, would likely become the de facto ruler in Scotland.
The Earl would likely have a vested interest in locking his young king/queen up like what happened to Joanna of Castile, so he could rule in his/her stead alongside Mary of England, except that Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox, would denounce this as the treason of the f*king bastard, as part of the Arran-Lennox rivalry(as Matthew Stewart believed that the Earl of Arran was illegitimate). As a result, a full Joanna of Castile scenario would not be replicated in its totality in Scotland, and once Mary died, the new monarch would be able to do what he/she wanted as the monarch of both countries.

Why would James V die in 1542? The sitution that led to his death is gone.

 

[Geoffrey1016]

Why would James V die in 1542? The sitution that led to his death is gone.

None of the Scottish monarchs at the time had died normally since James II was killed in a cannon explosion. James II was killed by his cannon, James III ousted by his own son, and James IV died in the Battle of Flodden.

 

[VVD0D95]

None of the Scottish monarchs at the time had died normally since James II was killed in a cannon explosion.

And? James V could well be the exception. His death otl was related to an English invasion, since that's been butterflied here, why's he dying?

 

[Geoffrey1016]

And? James V could well be the exception. His death otl was related to an English invasion, since that's been butterflied here, why's he dying?

A shock that his wife had given birth to a lass, while on a routine move between his two realms.

 

[VVD0D95]

A shock that his wife had given birth to a lass, while on a routine move between his two realms.

Seems a bit weird aha

 

[Geoffrey1016]

Scots lords would demand the baby queen(let's name her Catherine) to be raised up in Scotland, while the English would ask her to be raised in England and to be sent to Ludlow later. The girl would be crowned at Scone, but whether the Scots would send their queen to England would be unclear this time.

 

[VVD0D95]

Scots lords would demand the baby queen(let's name her Catherine) to be raised up in Scotland, while the English would ask her to be raised in England and to be sent to Ludlow later. The girl would be crowned at Scone, but whether the Scots would send their queen to England would be unclear this time.

Still not understanding why James is dying