An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Frame]

If the Shia end up being a pillar of Roman control in mesopotamia will they ever be considered a Noble Herasy? It might be a pretty hard pill for the romans to swallow but making them a ruling class and not persecuting them might help them become a loyal minority along with the kurds

 

[Sphenodon]

If the Shia end up being a pillar of Roman control in mesopotamia will they ever be considered a Noble Herasy? It might be a pretty hard pill for the romans to swallow but making them a ruling class and not persecuting them might help them become a loyal minority along with the kurds

They might end up being the preferred sect of Islam to Rome, but they remain exactly that - Muslims in the eye of a solidly Christian state, extensively theocratic even by the standards of the time. Given that the Romans can't stomach the notion of extending clemency to the Nestorians, I can't see them doing so for an entirely separate Abrahamic religion.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

If the Shia end up being a pillar of Roman control in mesopotamia will they ever be considered a Noble Herasy? It might be a pretty hard pill for the romans to swallow but making them a ruling class and not persecuting them might help them become a loyal minority along with the kurds

They might end up being the preferred sect of Islam to Rome, but they remain exactly that - Muslims in the eye of a solidly Christian state, extensively theocratic even by the standards of the time. Given that the Romans can't stomach the notion of extending clemency to the Nestorians, I can't see them doing so for an entirely separate Abrahamic religion.

We can't forget that there is an old (if now small) history ITTL of Anatolian Sunni Muslims who have been relatively well treated (he says, dreading the though he has forgotten something). Realistically I think the Shia would be in contention with that group, but keep the two seperated, and I can see the argument for it.

Raised to Noble Heresy status though? Impossible. The only way that could happen would be to stop being Shia Islam and effectively become a form of Christianity by acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God and divine. THAT would be an incredibly useful heresy for the Romans if the Time of Troubles and the recent banishments and enslavements in Syria hadn't happened. (And that still doesn't account for the headache that would be melding the Trinity with Muslim views on Jesus).

I'd say the Shia community has a more valuable use to the Romans than being local rulers though - and that is being a form of anti-Ottoman force, behaving like the Ismaili Shia.

However that is still unlikely, as really - in this timeline, working the Romans as any sort of Muslim power isn't exactly going to make you popular with the rest of the Muslim world. Georgia? Maybe, but all of it is pushing it.

I think the best relationship would probably be tolerance from the Romans, with the Shia essentially using the Romans as a shelter to operate from. That might mean working to keep the peace on the Romans behalf, but also that there isn't actually loyalty, just mutual self-interest. The second there is a large Shia power that can realistically take over where they live, I'd expect a flip.

 

[Frame]

I wonder, what would be the best defensible border in the east following the War of the wrath. To my unlearned eyes the the Zagros seem like a good place to defend from but maybe that might be stretching the Romans too far

 

[Duke of Orlando]

If my memory serves me right The Druze and Alawites have been a big help to the Romans in the Syria/Lebanon area already in the form of Loyal citizens and strong militias similar to the Marionettes. I can’t help but wonder if the Romans might unofficially encourage the two groups to try and convert any of Shia in Mesopotamia to those “loyal” denominations of Shia.

As for the Zagros mountains, they make the most sense as far as natural Borders go and is what I assume the Romans aim for if Odysseus is as ambitious as he seems to be. I expect the Georgians might also make a grab at the Caspian Sea coast and northwestern Kurdistan so I would expect a Roman border to run up north through the Zagros to meet it somewhere. Is it a stretch for them? Yes but not an unmanageable one if things are as Quiet on the European front as we’ve been led to believe. If the Romans can truly turn their attention East for a significant period of time I don’t see any reason they can’t make it work. Focus on converting and repopulating the area with loyal citizens and you could conceivably have a stable province at some point in the future.

That’s the ideal scenario for the Romans though so I don’t know how likely it is to happen.

 

[MasochismTango1]

he says, dreading the thought he has forgotten something

if that aint the most relatable gotdamn thing...

 

[Frame]

I know this is a hella of a loaded question but what's the state of philosophy in the empire? Has the modern empire produced anybody to rival the likes of Plato or Socrates? It would be interesting to see some philosophers inspired by eastern tradition due to the connection Rome has to those nations

 

[Namayan]

i have been lately been reading on south east asian built warships. island asia built galleons are far superior than european and american counterparts due to tropical hardwood.

otl British frigates Panther and Argo tried to beat up the locally built (bicol) galleon Santisima Trinindad. 1000 shots of each 18 and 24 pounders. sides still intact but was disabled and captured. the hardwood does not splinter. All according to Manila-Acapulco Galleons by Shirley Fish

If the Romans built the same local materials as otl spanish, the sides should be intact if fighting 18 or 24 pounder cannons. i think the point being if the atl Romans used local hardwood, the Atl spanish european built will be far inferior in durability.

The fregatai if locally built in Pyrgos being used by Napoleon should be more durable than whatever the atl Spanish got or even whatever the Roman, triunes are building in Europe.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

i have been lately been reading on south east asian built warships. island asia built galleons are far superior than european and american counterparts due to tropical hardwood.

otl British frigates Panther and Argo tried to beat up the locally built (bicol) galleon Santisima Trinindad. 1000 shots of each 18 and 24 pounders. sides still intact but was disabled and captured. the hardwood does not splinter. All according to Manila-Acapulco Galleons by Shirley Fish

If the Romans built the same local materials as otl spanish, the sides should be intact if fighting 18 or 24 pounder cannons. i think the point being if the atl Romans used local hardwood, the Atl spanish european built will be far inferior in durability.

The fregatai if locally built in Pyrgos being used by Napoleon should be more durable than whatever the atl Spanish got or even whatever the Roman, triunes are building in Europe.

For real? Can u send link to sources?

 

[Namayan]

For real? Can u send link to sources?

bought mine thru amazon , read thru kindle The Manila-Acapulco Galleons : the Treasure Ships of the Pacific by Shirley Fish published 2011

google might have preview i just dont know if they will preview that page:

The Manila-Acapulco Galleons : the Treasure Ships of the Pacific

During the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries, the transpacific treasure galleons sailed annually from Manila to Acapulco. In Manila, the vessel was loaded with the scented spices of the East, luxurious silks from China, exquisite hand crafted lacquerware from Japan and a multitude of...

books.google.com.ph

here is the excerpt from the book copy paste from my kindle

when the English naval frigates the Panther and the Argo, captured the Nuestra Senora de la Santisima Trinidad in 1762 during the British invasion of the Philippines, they were in for a surprise. They had fired more than 1,000 cannon balls at the galleon of 18 and 24 pounds each, but later when they physically took control of the ship, they discovered that the sides of the galleon had remained undamaged.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Damn

bought mine thru amazon , read thru kindle The Manila-Acapulco Galleons : the Treasure Ships of the Pacific by Shirley Fish published 2011

google might have preview i just dont know if they will preview that page:

The Manila-Acapulco Galleons : the Treasure Ships of the Pacific

During the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries, the transpacific treasure galleons sailed annually from Manila to Acapulco. In Manila, the vessel was loaded with the scented spices of the East, luxurious silks from China, exquisite hand crafted lacquerware from Japan and a multitude of...

books.google.com.ph

here is the excerpt from the book copy paste from my kindle

Damn I didn't think that hardwood in se asia are that tough.

 

[Frame]

What is the population of the Scandinavian colony in the new world? Whats the biggest settlement?

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Okay so I went back and looked up what the Shia are in the Empire and they’re already under the umbrella of Noble Heresy as are the Druze and Alawites despite being Muslim faiths. It seems that as long as you follow the rules, don’t rebel, and pay your taxes you’re rewarded with that label and the benefits that come with it. So as long as Shia Mesopotamians decide to go with the flow instead of rebel I expect they’ll be a Noble Heresy. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Empire tries to Something like name the Sunni Kurds a “Noble people” that is considered a Noble Heresy in all but name try and win their loyalty without giving a blanket approval to Sunni Islam. Anything to lessen the amount of angry subjects in Mesopotamia when the Roman get there

Information on the Noble Heresies and the Kurds are found in minorities in the empire 2 if anyone wants to look themselves. .

 

[Vince]

So with the foreshadowing being dropped about D3 are we coming back to everyone's favorite explosion loving, curse giving, coffee guzzling Emperor soon?

 

[Frame]

Do the spanish have any possessions on sumatra? On my map I have an outpost on the northern tip of the island and another outpost along the straits of Malacca

 

[MasochismTango1]

Man I gotta say, I'm gonna miss D3. I have a soft spot for the less, well, majestic emperors. Remember Andreas' dad? The badass accountant-basileus? Still miss him.

 

[Frame]

Man I gotta say, I'm gonna miss D3. I have a soft spot for the less, well, majestic emperors. Remember Andreas' dad? The badass accountant-basileus? Still miss him.

Our friend D3 has certainly earned a spot at the table of great administrator emperors. In my Opinion he has been the best administrator since Hadrian

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Our friend D3 has certainly earned a spot at the table of great administrator emperors. In my Opinion he has been the best administrator since Hadrian

Even better than Hadrian I'd say. Hadrian's era was a time where Rome was unquestionably the strongest in the world. This is in stark contrast where in Demetrios III time, Rome has plenty of equals or more glass-cannon empires. Demetrios reign pretty much is like the 3rd century crisis, only there aren't pretenders and revolts happening. Thanks to his reforms as well as the built up by his predecessors.

 

[Βοανηργές]

Roads wouldn’t happen because sea transport is just so much faster and cheaper in this era compared to ground transport. We’re talking order-of-magnitude cheaper. Cost means Malacca and Pahang will communicate by sea; the money spent on a road through the jungle would be much better spent on ships and naval facilities to ensure the Romans don’t lose command of the sea.

All the better for the development of Singapore/Leontopolis

Given that the Romans can't stomach the notion of extending clemency to the Nestorians, I can't see them doing so for an entirely separate Abrahamic religion.

To add on to what @Duke of Orlando said, maybe a captive Shia caliph can be persuaded to cooperate.

 

[Frame]

I think the best way to treat the Shia is to let them be and encourage them to convert via privileges associated with becoming orthodox. I dont think their Theology will ever be compatible and trying to force it on them will give the Romans another minority to brutally opress