WI: Germany license produces Japanese aircraft carriers

[marathag]

he Fi 167 makes a Douglas Devastator look good.

You should look closer at the stats of the Fi-167 for payload, range and cruising speed. It's very competitive for an early war Torpedo mover.

 

[McPherson]

You should look closer at the stats of the Fi-167 for payload, range and cruising speed. It's very competitive for an early war Torpedo mover.

Take a look at landing gear, arrestor arrangements, and WING LOADING. The Devastator is a Cadillac by comparison. That thing is a flying coffin.

 

[marathag]

Take a look at landing gear, arrestor arrangements, and WING LOADING. The Devastator is a Cadillac by comparison. That thing is a flying coffin.

Since you like metric units, Fi-167 has max takeoff of 4900kg for 45.5m² of wing area and the TBD 4640kg MTO for 39.2m², with 150kw less power than the Fieseler.
Less wing loading, with better high lift devices and more power.
Like I said, look closer.

 

[Orcbuster]

I don't imagine the japanese would have the spare resources to build one for them.

 

[Alanith]

I don't imagine the japanese would have the spare resources to build one for them.

Oh nonsense, they’d take the Germans money and spend it on things related to the China quagmire, then the two carriers they’re building “for them” will end up getting confiscated shortly before completion by the IJN, citing “urgent security needs”. OTL Shokaku and Zuikaku, but paid for by some poor foreign suckers. What are the Nazis going to do, sail their Battlefleet they don’t really have to Kure and threaten to shell the shipyards?

 

[thaddeus]

always read the back and forth on this subject and conclude the KM would have been better off with seaplane tenders? not sure they would need Japanese input to construct or convert that type of vessel?

although the Japanese Chitose could reach 28-29 knts., that might inspire them in a productive direction instead of something closer to pre-war commercial tenders?

 

[McPherson]

Since you like metric units, Fi-167 has max takeoff of 4900kg for 45.5m² of wing area and the TBD 4640kg MTO for 39.2m², with 150kw less power than the Fieseler.
Less wing loading, with better high lift devices and more power.
Like I said, look closer.

I did. The Fiesler has a tendency to hang there in mid air and "hover" when she tries to trap. Think about what that means as she attempts to come aboard a flattop in the Atlantic. You want to be able to control the fall and stall when you catch the wire. Plus those spatted narrow set landing fixed landing gear? Want to figure what happens during a rock and roll landing? Ka-BOOM.

 

[tomo pauk]

Germans making the carriers means they can catch French and British patrol aircraft, and repel a lot of airborne attacks on the high seas. Carry 2 fighters per each Ju 87C so you can dive-bomb the RN ships that might attempt shadowing. Don't bother with torpedoes - dive bombers are safer, attrition is probem when away from friendly bases.
So yes, Germany making aircraft carriers early on puts a lot of pressure to the French & British.

 

[marathag]

I did. The Fiesler has a tendency to hang there in mid air and "hover" when she tries to trap. Think about what that means as she attempts to come aboard a flattop in the Atlantic. You want to be able to control the fall and stall when you catch the wire. Plus those spatted narrow set landing fixed landing gear? Want to figure what happens during a rock and roll landing? Ka-BOOM.

It can hover, should the pilot desire to do that.
Like what the Storch did for pinpoint landings.
That's what STOL does for you. You don't have to land fast, you have great control. Hover isn't ballooning

It has the 2nd lowest landing speed of any WWII Torpedo Plane, 59mph to 46 of the Stringbag, that also had that hover ability

 

[Asp]

Ok, finished my summer classes so now I can come back to this. @CalBear , care to offer an opinion if you have time? You're the expert on this sort of thing around here. Could the Japanese have licensed carriers to the Germans?

Nope.

The Soryu, as originally built, was top-heavy, had idiotic lift arrangements and was a fire and explosion waiting to happen. Even German naval architects would take one look at her and conclude that they they could do better than that piece of junk. Even the Graf Zeppelin looks good next to Soryu.

The difference between a BF109T and Wildcat is so great that I pity the German pilot who tries to fly a BF109T AGAINST a Wildcat. It would be like a Wildcat against a Zero.

The Fi 167 makes a Douglas Devastator look good.

The Ju-87C was no Dauntless either.

No doubt Japanese WWII naval architecture left some stuff to be desired, but it's a pretty big stretch to say it's worse than the Graf Zeppelin. That thing was a pile of crap. Permanent list to the side because some idiot put a heavy pair of guns on it, could hold half as many aircraft as the Soryu, twice the tonnage for the same capability...for all the Soryu's issues, the Japanese managed to at least create a useful asset that they got decent mileage out of. Even if the Graf Zeppelin had been completed, the list would have made it almost unusable for flight ops and even if it was it would have been a fleet carrier sized ship with an escort carrier sized load of planes. Usable trumps unusable.

What basis do you have for saying that it was a far inferior fighter to a Wildcat? I'm skeptical of that purely because the British had Wildcats (well, they called them Martlets) and they weren't used to slaughter Bf-109s en masse. The Bf-109T was an adapted E series, which had about the same performance as the Wildcat in most key respects. Very slightly higher maximum speed, slightly lower maximum service ceiling, and I'm pretty sure the maneuverability was comparable.

I did. The Fiesler has a tendency to hang there in mid air and "hover" when she tries to trap. Think about what that means as she attempts to come aboard a flattop in the Atlantic. You want to be able to control the fall and stall when you catch the wire. Plus those spatted narrow set landing fixed landing gear? Want to figure what happens during a rock and roll landing? Ka-BOOM.

You sure? The Fi-167 was reported to have excellent handling characteristics, could approach at a very low speed, and it had fairly wide fixed landing gear, at least comparable to that of a Swordfish, which had no such issues. From what I understand, the hover was a maneuver that the pilot could perform, but it didn't do that involuntarily or uncontrolled.

 

[Asp]

It can hover, should the pilot desire to do that.
Like what the Storch did for pinpoint landings.
That's what STOL does for you. You don't have to land fast, you have great control. Hover isn't ballooning

It has the 2nd lowest landing speed of any WWII Torpedo Plane, 59mph to 46 of the Stringbag, that also had that hover ability

Yeah, looking at the string bag next to the Fi-167 they seem pretty comparable.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

That's the A6M5. Still over 1000 miles range.
And check what the Me-109D in 1939 had for self sealing tanks, just an alloy tanks coated with thin coat of semi vulcanized rubber. That would be fine for pinhole leaks, not rifle caliber rounds. That took multiple layers that were thicker and heavier.
The German bombers of the time had that improved self sealing tanks, but not the fighters.
Only the Soviets were doing the CO2 purging before the War.

German Radio and gunsights, as I pointed out in the past, would have been a welcome addition to any mk Zero.

The M5 first flown in August 1943!

Granted the Germans could develop their own version using their own engine but I would add that the BMW 801 radial (which powered the early FW190s) is twice the weight of the Sakae 21 that powered the A6M5 and is both longer and wider.

 

[McPherson]

Ok, finished my summer classes so now I can come back to this. @CalBear , care to offer an opinion if you have time? You're the expert on this sort of thing around here. Could the Japanese have licensed carriers to the Germans?

Hmm. Always ask for a second opinion. Cause, that's the rule of two and a good one to follow for a balanced nuanced view of opinions.

No doubt Japanese WWII naval architecture left some stuff to be desired, but it's a pretty big stretch to say it's worse than the Graf Zeppelin. That thing was a pile of crap. Permanent list to the side because some idiot put a heavy pair of guns on it, could hold half as many aircraft as the Soryu, twice the tonnage for the same capability...for all the Soryu's issues, the Japanese managed to at least create a useful asset that they got decent mileage out of. Even if the Graf Zeppelin had been completed, the list would have made it almost unusable for flight ops and even if it was it would have been a fleet carrier sized ship with an escort carrier sized load of planes. Usable trumps unusable.

Ahem.

a. The round down on the Ark Royal was a stall hazard in traps.
b. Lexington and Saratoga had permanent 3 degree lists that were only corrected in Saratoga's case by landing her 20.3 cm guns. and by countermassing through filling the port av-gas tanks and never emptying them and finally fitting a unique asymmetric bulging.
c. Furious, Glorious, and Argus were heat traps in the hanger that made them unsuitable for tropical service (were used there anyway). Every British flattop failed the shock criteria for a US warship.
d. Wasp had vulnerable combined machinery spaces. So did the Yorktowns.
f. Every Japanese aircraft carrier made prior to Shokaku and Zuikaku had to be sent back to the builders for
1. redesigned flight decks.
2. bulging to address topweight issues.
3. VIBRATION in the props.
4. Before they learned proper tricing and hardstand deck use for their onboard aircraft, British aircraft carriers, by US and Japanese standards were restricted in capacity to "escort carrier sized air groups". I suspect Graf Zeppelin as lessons are learned would undergo similar operations modification.

IOW, the listed complaints about Graf Zeppelin are middling and normal par for the course for a nation's first generation aircraft carriers. When "I" tell you the Soryu was a piece of junk compared to the Graf Zeppelin, that is because I know the corrections to the German flattop are relatively "minor" compared to such operational disasters like Soryu and later in the US case the USS Midway after she was configured into an angled flight deck carrier by some utter incompetents. Those aircraft carriers all served until they were:
g. sunk as in the case of Soryu, and every other badly built Japanese aircraft carrier the Americans dispatched and Lexington and Wasp and Hornet and Yorktown, Ark Royal, Glorious, Hermes, Eagle ... etc.
h. or served until worn out or considered useless. Midway, Indomitable etc,

no matter how badly designed or built.

What basis do you have for saying that it was a far inferior fighter to a Wildcat? I'm skeptical of that purely because the British had Wildcats (well, they called them Martlets) and they weren't used to slaughter Bf-109s en masse. The Bf-109T was an adapted E series, which had about the same performance as the Wildcat in most key respects. Very slightly higher maximum speed, slightly lower maximum service ceiling, and I'm pretty sure the maneuverability was comparable.

Combat performance tests. US Wildcats in British hands performed extremely well in Bay of Biscay, Western Desert and Norway operations. German planes were splashed and British pilots came home. That is the metric.

[You sure? The Fi-167 was reported to have excellent handling characteristics, could approach at a very low speed, and it had fairly wide fixed landing gear, at least comparable to that of a Swordfish, which had no such issues. From what I understand, the hover was a maneuver that the pilot could perform, but it didn't do that involuntarily or uncontrolled.

The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: Swordfish, British ... Swordfish torpedo bomber.

Fieseler Fi-167 Pavla 1/72 - Ready for Inspection

File:TBD VT-8 taking off from USS Hornet (CV-8) May 1942 ...

Nakajima B5N Kate
When you trap, you want to be able to control the stall.

Here is a hint.

That bird (Fulmar ^^^) is what the British took into battle against the Japanese, not the Swordfish. It FAILED.

This is the bird that would be necessary.

TBM torpedo bomber demonstrates wing folding at 2012 ...

Addenda. It ain't the landing gear only, it is the wing-form, pilot vision on approach, overall flap control in near stall conditions and the ability to drop into a trap to catch wire at full power all under control; which I am not convinced a landlubber plane like the Fi 167 can do.

Add this... I'm very sure. Swordfish pilots were VERY good in the trap in what is a VERY marginal aircraft by Pacific War standards plane. Luftwaffe pilots would start with a severe handicap with the Fieseler. They would find the weather alone a KILLER,.

 

[marathag]

The M5 first flown in August 1943!

Basic self sealing tanks were known to the Japanese in 1939, as was armored seatbacks and bullet proof glass, They just chose not to use them for four years, along with thicker gauge wing skins

Only thing they could not have used in 1939 was the slightly higher HP engine and improved cannon

But they chose minimum weight instead for maximum range and maneuverability
They didn't have to

 

[marathag]

When you trap, you want to be able to control the stall.

If you can near hover, that means you have fine control over pitch, yaw and roll at very low speeds. Fi-167 would be fine at sea, had the Germans ever put a Deck to Sea. Fieseler would do fine, coming from the Storch Note the pilot's visibility to the front, Inline is a bonus here, as well

 

[McPherson]

Now let's go to work.

Source: United States Navy of course.

Funny thing is that the artist's render is based on US best practice and would have been a considerable improvement on what the Germans planned.

From here.

More like an Akagi than a Lexington, casemate guns and botched armored box "British style" hanger. Go figure?

These are the vital statistics of Ryujo after she was rebuilt compared to Graff Zeppelin and the Hipper class. The standard displacement is in long tons and the hull dimensions are in metres. The source (Conway's 1922-46) doesn't say what Graff Zeppelin's overall length was.

View attachment 566649​

If they negotiated the licence for the Ryujo class in by the middle of 1935 they could have ordered 2 aircraft carriers of this type in November 1936. ALT Graff Zeppelin could have been laid won in December 1936 instead of the real Graff Zeppelin and ALT Aircraft Carrier B in September 1936 instead of the real Aircraft Carrier B.

The Ryujo class have a realistic chance of being completed in 1939 because they require less steel than the OTL ships and their less powerful machinery aught to be easier to make.

Re-Aircraft Carrier B. I'm going by Whitley in German Aircraft Capital Ships of World War Two who expressly says that she was laid down before Graff Zeppelin and that the date was 30th September 1936. Everyone else says that she was laid down in the slip vacated by Prinz Eugen which was launched on 22nd August 1938. Even if the latter is true there should a 180 metre long slipway available to lay the ALT-Aircraft Carrier B down on.

Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe sends 100 pilots to Japan to train on the IJN's carriers and the Kriegsmarine sends some officers and senior NCOs to serve on the Japanese carriers to get operating experience pending the completion of the 2 German carriers.

1. GZ is 250 meters long at flight deck..
2. Ryujo was a DISASTER even by IJN standards. She was rebuilt three times, went from an 8,000 tonne slow CVL to a 10,000 tonne slow CVL, had a bow extension slapped on her because she shipped water and flooded in a seaway, an enormous for hull size boxy sail-like superstructure fitted to double her hanger capacity and if you looked at her funny she would turtle and then sink. It took only one torpedo to finish her. That was how badly constructed she was.

Source via Wiki.
(不明 Unknown - 広島県呉市海事歴史科学館所蔵品。(translation; Collection of Maritime History Science Museum, Kure City, Hiroshima Prefecture)
Photo from the Archives of the Kure Maritime Museum.
龍驤　日本海軍航空母艦。横須賀軍港に停泊中の龍驤を前面から撮影した写真。 (Light aircraft carrier Ryūjō at anchor in Yokosuka)

You would build a Soryu before you accepted that piece of floating comedy.

I have a hard time believing the GZ would actually be capable of 35 knots.

USN estimate was 32 knots at standard load.

They could bring back reports of the A6M.

As like to point out, that gives them fighter coverage over Scotland, from Kiel Canal.

"Wissen Sie, warum die Amerikaner diesen Vogel eine Null nennen? denn ihre Überlebenschancen dagegen gegen einen richtigen Kämpfer wie eine Fock Wulfe 190 sind null."

(Do you know why the Americans call this bird a Zero? because your survival chances in it against a proper fighter like a Fock Wulfe 190 is zero.)

Possibly, but I doubt that any would be supplied to the Germans before 1941 because it didn't fly until April 1939 and the first delivery to the IJN was in July 1940.

If the Germans do succeed in completing 2 licence built Ruyjo class aircraft carriers in 1939 their air groups are going to consist of 12 Mitsubishi A5M Claudes purchased from Japan, 24 Fiesler 167 torpedo bombers or 12 Claudes, 12 Fieslers and 12 Aichi D3A Val dive bombers.

The Germans will buy domestic, so it will be Ju 87s and BF109Ts

What’s that performance like once armor plating, self sealing tanks, and a robust radio have been added? Because I don’t really see the luftwaffe accepting the type into service without any of those things.

Mediocre. Good enough for Hurricanes, but against Spitfire Vs?

That's the A6M5. Still over 1000 miles range.
And check what the Me-109D in 1939 had for self sealing tanks, just an alloy tanks coated with thin coat of semi vulcanized rubber. That would be fine for pinhole leaks, not rifle caliber rounds. That took multiple layers that were thicker and heavier.

The German bombers of the time had that improved self sealing tanks, but not the fighters.

Only the Soviets were doing the CO2 purging before the War.

German Radio and gunsights, as I pointed out in the past, would have been a welcome addition to any mk Zero.

Gunsights, fine. Radios were funken (spark) heavy. Even at that, I doubt a German radio could be crammed into a Zero. Kind of "big".

I remember reading that this was done in China after the war and the results were no more than average.

Yup.

You should look closer at the stats of the Fi-167 for payload, range and cruising speed. It's very competitive for an early war Torpedo mover.

See previous remarks.

Oh nonsense, they’d take the Germans money and spend it on things related to the China quagmire, then the two carriers they’re building “for them” will end up getting confiscated shortly before completion by the IJN, citing “urgent security needs”. OTL Shokaku and Zuikaku, but paid for by some poor foreign suckers. What are the Nazis going to do, sail their Battlefleet they don’t really have to Kure and threaten to shell the shipyards?

If the Japanese can find the steel and slips and fittings. They were kind of maxed out at the time.

If you can near hover, that means you have fine control over pitch, yaw and roll at very low speeds. Fi-167 would be fine at sea, had the Germans ever put a Deck to Sea. Fieseler would do fine, coming from the Storch Note the pilot's visibility to the front, Inline is a bonus here, as well

See previous comments and think about the North Atlantic.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Basic self sealing tanks were known to the Japanese in 1939, as was armored seatbacks and bullet proof glass, They just chose not to use them for four years, along with thicker gauge wing skins

Only thing they could not have used in 1939 was the slightly higher HP engine and improved cannon

But they chose minimum weight instead for maximum range and maneuverability
They didn't have to

There is a good discussion/video on this by Drachinifel - bit long but quite informative

Basically the Japanese were not as far behind everyone else as the Interwebs would have us believe and while yes in 42 they were flying around without these protective features as when it was being designed and produced those features did not really exist - many front line US Aircraft only a year before had been doing likewise and the Europeans only really in 1940 for the majority of their fleets (Hurricanes for example famously entered the BoB with much of the fleet lacking Self Sealing baffles in the main forward fuel tank).

 

[marathag]

Gunsights, fine. Radios were funken (spark) heavy. Even at that, I doubt a German radio could be crammed into a Zero. Kind of "big".

A6M2-K
Two seat Trainer

German Radios were smaller than a Japanese Instructor, I think
Standard A6M2

Existing Radio was not that large. US or German set were similar in size, but better ability and reliability

 

[McPherson]

Your Russian diagram is of a single seat A6M Series 2. The radio has to fit in the aviation stores compartment immediately behind the pilot's seat (ballast reasons) and that space is kind of tight for the Japanese radios in use..

Here is the similar Luftwaffe equipment to sort through. It will be tough fitting any of that stuff between the air bottle and the batteries. Can it be done? I don't know for sure, but my guess is ... no, probably not. The Germans required things like IFF and their radios were "bulky" even by US standards.

 

[marathag]

. can it be done?

If it can be modified into a two-seater, signs point to
'Yes'