Reading those paper well worth the delays and wait, the chapter ended up amazing, a true window to the past and details of the baltic conflicts, yeah seems the baltic are a mess at the time but they just explore what seems can profit over for now
Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline
- Thread starter Talus I of Dixie
- Start date
Map III: Eastern & Northern Europe
Now he's my personal slave and will do all TTL's maps Just some additions to the map:
- The Bohemian, Moravian, Slovak, Vistulan and White Croatian Tribes are (at least by now) formal Avar Vassals.
- Slavic Tribes under Khazar Vassality (Eastern Polans, Ulichs, Tiverians, Severians and Drevlyans) are not shown.
- The Chuds aren't one tribe, it's just the way i found to better represent the Ingrians and Votes because i'm not certain about the geographical divisions between these two groups (and they are similar anyway so...)
- Obviously, sense of internal unity/division varies between the various tribal groups present in the map, even though most of their people sees themselves as one.
Last edited:
A big mess, at least for now after the franco-thuringians were defeated by Faransa. They are horribly decentralized and there are no higher claiming of authority as of now, and the complete christianisation of the region was seriously set-backed due to the amount of chaos in the region not helping in the establishment of the germanic bishoprics, although the conversion to christianity might occur sooner or later due to bavarian pressure and the fact that chaos isn't eternal, as of now it clearly suffered a setback, although pagan saxon expansion south by Widukind might shake them into christianity for help.
The bavarians will be recovering from the shitshow of Athalwolf soon, although Tassilo III might not come to be the greatest of kings due to him being raised as an effective puppet, everyone cares enough about not being another puppet-maker ruling Bavaria that he can rule as effective as possible with the help of Berthold, the most demanding problem as of now is the czechs* pushing to the Danube. You might as well see Bavaria and newly-christian Carantania going to intervene in italian politics (and subsequently, the byzantine civil war), but i'll not spoil anything!
Further to the north, Saxony is fine, Widukind for now will be mostly trying to expand his internal control of the country, and maybe one or two campaigns against the Sorbs in the south if he finds himself secure enough. The Sorb and Silesian tribes are quickly enriching themselves due to trade flux coming south from the coast, although the sorbs are much more decentralized than the silesians (what results in quite a disavantadge politically speaking). The Obotrites are in what can be effectively called an Golden Age, with the saxons being their unformal vassals while Raćibor's heir (which i purposely not revealed yet
) will be inheriting a well, rich and (especially for medieval standards) centralized realm, with their main rivals being reduced to in all but name minathulatian client state, in the future we shall see if the obotrites will receive an heir capable of maintaining the father's level.I like it, but maybe the opacity on the hills and mountains can be reduced a bit?New Map! For those wondering how it's so damn beautiful, i must give all credits to my friend (and actually co-founder of this TL back in 2019) @Pato the Brazilian
Did this mappo give you ideas?
Yeah whole europe could be describe that way(except Al-Andalus) too but interesting how is the situation of Faransa and Bakhyia inmediated Neighboors, nice answer buddy
It's a complex question, since it depends on which parameters you use to define one as the "top" state power, i think that even on a civil war the Byzantines can be considered the top christian power if you put the weight in sheer size, although the fact of being in a civil war at the sime time cut their size advantage completely, so i think the best way to remedy this is count on power projection.
Using power projection as the parameter, i can safely put Bavaria at least for now as the top christian power, it doesn't have the best ruler but it is a considerably consolidated state and IMO the christian power with the best ability and scenario to expand its influence. Although i can assure you that new (christian!) powers will eventually come in, the specifics will be maintained at a hundred keys on my secret archives until i release them here
I'll see what my friend can do, although most probably it will be the final version of the map, your criticism certainly will be useful in next maps.
The thing is that Faransa will enter through quite instable times right now, and Bakhyia certainly will try to profit over this in order to consolidate their position in relation to improve their position vis a vis with Faransa. With this said, expect intervention by the andalusis too, as it was already discussed here before, an stable Faransa under a friendly ruler is the magical formula for ultimate security of al-Andalus, things will get quite messy.
It's beautiful, but not always accurate. For example, Silesians did not inhabit whole entirety of region known later as Silesia - easternmost parts of what would become Upper Silesia were part of Lesser Poland (so, in tribal times inhabited by Vistulans, not by Silesians), while western part of this region were inhabited by Opolans (hence city Opole), who were completely separate tribe not dependent on Silesian tribal leadership. While speaking of Lower Silesia, northwesternmost part of it, bordering Sorbs was held by another tribe, called Dziadoszanie and their "capital" was in Głogów, and the southwest was held by Bobrzanie, who inhabited lands around river Bóbr. Silesians only held lands around mount Ślęża, which was a place of sun worship for local Slavs. Silesia as a region is a byproduct of Piast dukes and their administration. And Prussians did not held lands as far as Vistula - Chełmno Land, which you marked as a part of Prussia was inhabited by Kuyavians and other lands, which you marked as a Sudovian/Galindian were inhabited by Mazovians (not Mozavians). Also White Croatia was bullshit, Croats by the time of even POD (and these events are far removed from POD) were long gone to Balkans and so-called Grody Czerwieńskie were inhabited by tribe of Lendians.
The Silesians weren't centralized at all. Any tribes which can be accused of having any shred of centralisation in tribal period Poland are Polans (some tribal leaders names are given to us by Wincenty Kadłubek, for example Popiel I and while their deeds are largely exaggerated and they themselves are put far more earlier than they should appear, it is likely than these people existed and were some Slavic warlords whose names Kadłubek used to create false antiquity for Poland) and Vistulans (hagiography of St. Methodius remarks existence of "very strong pagan prince near Vistula" in early IXth century, who refused to become Christian and was killed by Moravians as a result.
Veleti were also mortal enemies of Polans, so any screw for them means proto-"Poland" wank.
Interesting seeing an Eastern European/Polish POV of the ancient triber historiography and interesting, again how the Polans will created poland would be interesting, specially later on if goes baltics, when more the history is happening
Well, i must admit i was surprised 'til now after no one calling me on shit
(i kind of expected, especially because it was me who passed the info to my mapmaker), but firstly i might say that the silesians on the map isn't quite referring to an specific tribe, is quite the same thing as the sorbs, a group of minor separate tribes that i grouped up for simplicity, although i will have to make changes in relation to the borders with the Vistulans. While about the Prussian border, AFAIK the Kuyavians inhabited the western bank of the Vistula, and apparently the wikipedia article you linked confirms this, i might be assuming it wrong but yk, anyway, the Galindian border and White Croatia's inexistence were good catches (although i have to question you on the latter, since by what i've read about they were still pretty alive by the mid-9th Century, will change it as well), and as soon as possible it will be corrected, although since i'm not the mapmaker, it might take more time than usual.Oh i didn't want to mean that the silesians were particularly centralized, i wanted to say that the sorbs were particularly decentralized (and with the silesians i could have a more fair comparison, since both them and the sorbs are groups of independent tribes), and if anything the newfound wealth might just encourage further decentralization. Although i knew about the Polans' i wasn't knowing about the Vistulans' centralization, so your input is very useful, and the Veleti, well...I do have some quite interesting plans for Poland
Well, i must admit i was surprised 'til now after no one calling me on shit
Ok, I totally get your intention, but since Silesians are one, separate tribe in historiography, extending the term to the majority of tribes inhabiting soon-to-be Silesia is ...confusing (to speak mildly). Changes of border with Vistulans is appreciated, though. Although Sorbs were a bigger tribe, which collapsed and this collapse birthed a few smaller tribes, so the comparison isn't exactly shining. Because they generally did inhabit western bank of the Vistula, but they owned some lands in the east bank - aforemontioned Chełmno Land and they are marked as Prussian. They weren't alive by the mid-9 th century. It was only Constantine Porphyrogenitus who wrote about White Croatia and he meant the place from which Balkan Croats originated. He didn't realize that there was no more Croats in the north.
...I do have some quite interesting plans for Poland
Well, I'm waiting for them, then
I understand, i might add a footnote explaining in the map's post to avoid major confusion, probably it will help.
Oh, now i totally understand, it will be corrected accordingly. If i got it right, in the map their territory is divided between the Polans and Prussians, right?
Ah, so i misreaded it, granted that it will be dealt accordingly too.
After days upon days of reading / catching-up with this timeline on my phone, I have finally reached the present day! Huzzah!
Nice work with the latest update! You have really grown in writing since the first pages. Given my cluelessness of early medieval Europe and Asia, I don't think I can offer more than advice from pop-culture history, but I'll definitely be lurking.
Nice work with the latest update! You have really grown in writing since the first pages. Given my cluelessness of early medieval Europe and Asia, I don't think I can offer more than advice from pop-culture history, but I'll definitely be lurking.
Thanks! Glad you managed to catch up, although i have to call you out at saying that "reached the present day", because it is overly ambiguous for the unwarnedAfter days upon days of reading / catching-up with this timeline on my phone, I have finally reached the present day! Huzzah!
Nice work with the latest update! You have really grown in writing since the first pages. Given my cluelessness of early medieval Europe and Asia, I don't think I can offer more than advice from pop-culture history, but I'll definitely be lurking.
, even then, feel free to comment any silly things you might think about this TL, especially because i'm not much experienced with 90% of the world's historical pop-culture Be that ambitious buddy...So what will be next? we will stay in Eastern Europe or going to other region next?Thanks! Glad you managed to catch up, although i have to call you out at saying that "reached the present day", because it is overly ambiguous for the unwarned
Next chapter will be quite massive btw, we'll be covering the abbasids, and i'm really considering splitting it off in two updates for convenience.