Axis Best Case - WW2

[Lee-Sensei]

In 1942/1943, the USSR was strong enough.
they knew quite a bit about the actual capabilities of Nazi Germany.
Red Orchestra.

I just don’t beleive it at all.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I just don’t beleive it at all.

The soviets sent a commission to inspect the best German panzers in April 1941. Hitler let them.
When they were shown the Panzer IV, they repeatedly demanded to see the best, not knowing that the Panzer IV was the German best back then.
They knew how weak Nazi Germany was and they knew that they had the numbers necessary to counter a blitz.
Soviet defenses at Kursk are a prime example.
Stalin the idiot refused to believe that the Nazis would betray him though, which is what caused the mess at Barbarossa.
He thought he held all the cards when in reality he didn't.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

The soviets sent a commission to inspect the best German panzers in April 1941. Hitler let them.
When they were shown the Panzer IV, they repeatedly demanded to see the best, not knowing that the Panzer IV was the German best back then.
They knew how weak Nazi Germany was and they knew that they had the numbers necessary to counter a blitz.
Soviet defenses at Kursk are a prime example.
Stalin the idiot refused to believe that the Nazis would betray him though, which is what caused the mess at Barbarossa.
He thought he held all the cards when in reality he didn't.

We just fundamentally disagree. Most historians agree that the Soviet Union wasn’t going to invade Germany. That’s why people like Suvorov are called revisionists.

 

[BlackDragon98]

We just fundamentally disagree. Most historians agree that the Soviet Union wasn’t going to invade Germany. That’s why people like Suvorov are called revisionists.

Fair enough.
But why did the Soviet take Finland, the Baltics, and part of Romania if they weren't expanding?
Mongolia and Xinjiang were puppeted as well.
The attack on Nazi Germany was a sooner or later thing.

 

[Ian_W]

He thought he held all the cards when in reality he didn't.

It isnt about kit.

It's about spare parts, doctrine and repair capability.

You know, all the stuff that people who don't study history ignore.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Fair enough.
But why did the Soviet take Finland, the Baltics, and part of Romania if they weren't expanding?
Mongolia and Xinjiang were puppeted as well.
The attack on Nazi Germany was a sooner or later thing.

I never said that they weren’t expanding. They were expanding at the expense of countries that were significantly weaker than them. Finland had a population that was well over 50 times smaller than the Soviet Unions. Romania had an economy that was almost 20 times smaller than theirs. The Soviets wanted to expand. They just didn’t want to do it by starting a war with a country strong enough to fight back.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I never said that they weren’t expanding. They were expanding at the expense of countries that were significantly weaker than them. Finland had a population that was well over 50 times smaller than the Soviet Unions. Romania had an economy that was almost 20 times smaller than theirs. The Soviets wanted to expand. They just didn’t want to do it by starting a war with a country strong enough to fight back.

They were taking out countries that would be potential Nazi allies or had the resources they wanted.
Only reason Stalin back Mao is because he wanted ChiComs he could control.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

They were taking out countries that would be potential Nazi allies or had the resources they wanted.
Only reason Stalin back Mao is because he wanted ChiComs he could control.

To an extent, that’s true. But it’s because he recognized Germany as a threat to the Soviet Union. Stalin has no guarantee that he can win a war with the Germans and the Germans had just defeated France in about 6 weeks.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Fair enough.
But why did the Soviet take Finland, the Baltics, and part of Romania if they weren't expanding?
Mongolia and Xinjiang were puppeted as well.
The attack on Nazi Germany was a sooner or later thing.

The parts they took were all formerly part of the Russian Empire. Stalin wanted to reassemble the Russian Empire territorially speaking and Hitler offered to let him do it at virtually no cost.

 

[BlackDragon98]

To an extent, that’s true. But it’s because he recognized Germany as a threat to the Soviet Union. Stalin has no guarantee that he can win a war with the Germans and the Germans had just defeated France in about 6 weeks.

France is not very big.
USSR is huge.
And they have more better stuff.
lots more.
nor are they afraid to take casualties.

 

[BlackDragon98]

The parts they took were all formerly part of the Russian Empire. Stalin wanted to reassemble the Russian Empire territorially speaking and Hitler offered to let him do it at virtually no cost.

Maybe, but conquering Europe in the name of communism was the ultimate plan.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

France is not very big.
USSR is huge.
And they have more better stuff.
lots more.
nor are they afraid to take casualties.

1) The French Empire covered a significant portion of the globe and they had the backing of the British Empire.

2) I’m not sure what you mean by this second point, but French military equipment was for the most part up to date. In many cases, their equipment was superior to their German adversaries. The French also had a higher per capita income (and hence, they had a larger tax base). France was also a more motorized society than the Soviet Union by far and even Germany.

3) The French weren’t afraid to take heavy casualties. About 73% of of French soldiers mobilized in World War 1 were casualties of the war. If France had been able to check the German advance like they did in 1914, I have no doubt that they’d have been willing to take heavy casualties fighting the Germans again to gain victory.

Maybe, but conquering Europe in the name of communism was the ultimate plan.

Stalin wanted that in the long run, but he wasn’t going to risk a major war to get it. Trotsky might. Stalin and Bukharin were in favour of working on socialism internally.

 

[Ian_W]

nor are they afraid to take casualties.

The quote that, for me, sums up the Great War comes from a French general.

"No matter what you do, you are going to lose a lot of men".

Everyone, in the entire Short Twentieth Century, was unafraid to take casualties.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Maybe, but conquering Europe in the name of communism was the ultimate plan.

Spreading Communism globally was the ultimate goal, but Stalin wanted to build 'socialism in one country':

Socialism in one country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The theory held that given the defeat of all the communist revolutions in Europe in 1917–1923 except Russia, the Soviet Union should begin to strengthen itself internally. This turn toward national communism was a shift from the previously held position by classical Marxism that socialism must be established globally. However, proponents of the theory argue that it contradicts neither world revolution nor world communism.

The theory was in opposition to Leon Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution and the earlier communist left theory of world revolution.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Fair enough.
But why did the Soviet take Finland, the Baltics, and part of Romania if they weren't expanding?
Mongolia and Xinjiang were puppeted as well.
The attack on Nazi Germany was a sooner or later thing.

Because they could and no one was going to stop them

None of those nations had an experienced army, air-force and supporting industry like Germany did!

 

[BlackDragon98]

1) The French Empire covered a significant portion of the globe and they had the backing of the British Empire.

2) I’m not sure what you mean by this second point, but French military equipment was for the most part up to date. In many cases, their equipment was superior to their German adversaries. The French also had a higher per capita income (and hence, they had a larger tax base). France was also a more motorized society than the Soviet Union by far and even Germany.

3) The French weren’t afraid to take heavy casualties. About 73% of of French soldiers mobilized in World War 1 were casualties of the war. If France had been able to check the German advance like they did in 1914, I have no doubt that they’d have been willing to take heavy casualties fighting the Germans again to gain victory.


Stalin wanted that in the long run, but he wasn’t going to risk a major war to get it. Trotsky might. Stalin and Bukharin were in favour of working on socialism internally.

France spent all their money for years on end building a giant wall.
USSR didn't. The Stalin line was a much better deal, and cheaper too.

It's precisely because they had an empire.
Your empire needs resources to defend it.
Resources that are spread halfway across the world.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

France spent all their money for years on end building a giant wall.
USSR didn't. The Stalin line was a much better deal, and cheaper too.

It's precisely because they had an empire.
Your empire needs resources to defend it.
Resources that are spread halfway across the world.

1) That’s not because they were afraid to risk high casualties. It’s because they learned the wrong lessons from WW1.

2) France’s most important colonies were in Africa. Algeria was the most important colony and it was right across the Mediterranean. Italy was neutral for most of the campaign, so they had secure supply lines too.

 

[BlackDragon98]

1) That’s not because they were afraid to risk high casualties. It’s because they learned the wrong lessons from WW1.

2) France’s most important colonies were in Africa. Algeria was the most important colony and it was right across the Mediterranean. Italy was neutral for most of the campaign, so they had secure supply lines too.

But their forces had to be dispersed.
Soviet can concentrate their forces.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

But their forces had to be dispersed.
Soviet can concentrate their forces.

The Soviet Unions forces were spread across half of the globe. It was larger than most continents.

 

[BlackDragon98]

The Soviet Unions forces were spread across half of the globe. It was larger than most continents.

There's only 2 front the USSR needs to worry about.
Far East and West.
That's it.
Trans Siberia solves the problem.

It beats having to supply colonies across oceans by boat.