Axis Best Case - WW2

[Admiral Spaun]

. I’m just not going to white knight for the Soviets (the Holodomor, the Doctors plots, the Great Purges, the Gulags etc.)

No one is going white knight for the Soviets here. I don't deny that the Soviet Union was a horrible regime that caused untold suffering for its people. I am pointing out that the Nazis are in a league of their own when it comes to human monstrosity and saying that the Soviets are comparable is missing the point entirely. Let's also try to remember that to remember that Hitler tried to wipe every one of the 150 million people in the Soviet Union from existence.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

No one is going white knight for the Soviets here. I don't deny that the Soviet Union was a horrible regime that caused untold suffering for its people. I am pointing out that the Nazis are in a league of their own when it comes to human monstrosity and saying that the Soviets are comparable is missing the point entirely. Let's also try to remember that to remember that Hitler tried to wipe every one of the 150 million people in the Soviet Union from existence.

I disagree. You can make a case for either of them.

 

[redrobin65]

I disagree. You can make a case for either of them

You're missing the point. Hitler wanted, and tried, to kill every Russian the SS or Heer could get their hands on. The Nazis are in a league of their own. Given the chance, the Third Reich would have exterminated everyone unfortunate enough to be deemed subhuman.

 

[Femto]

8. There is no attack on USSR until the Med is cleared,

This isn't a good thing. Any successful attack on the Soviet Union by the Axis Powers must have the element of surprise at least to a degree. If the Axis finishes the Med campaign then the USSR would be with their eyes wide open for an invasion and the invasion would be less successful than OTL's Operation Barbarossa.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

You're missing the point. Hitler wanted, and tried, to kill every Russian the SS or Heer could get their hands on. The Nazis are in a league of their own. Given the chance, the Third Reich would have exterminated everyone unfortunate enough to be deemed subhuman.

No. I’m not. Even if I granted that the Nazis were worst, because they targeted specific groups ( the Soviets did that too), it’s still very debatable.

 

[Femto]

No. I’m not. Even if I granted that the Nazis were worst, because they targeted specific groups ( the Soviets did that too), it’s still very debatable.

Nah. The Nazis were worse, they are for full extermination and slavery. Almost cartoonish movie villains.

The Soviets were pretty bad as a nation, but at least they didn't talk about full genocide loudly. This is a pretty low bar but that's our history.

 

[Cubert]

The thing is that Great Britain does not know if Italy will enter the war at a later stage so they will have to keep forces in place in North Africa and they will probably reinforce their Greek allies.

Sure, but it's still going to be less that what they kept their OTL, both in terms of ground forces and air forces. What Italy gets up to in the Balkans is up to question, but I have a hard time seeing a "neutral Italy" scenario if the UK decides to assist Greece.

Even with Italy not being an active participant massive convoys through the Mediterranean and past Gibraltar is probably ill advised.

Sure, but it's not like this happened in OTL either so I don't see your point.

It is a point of discussion, but there are sufficient scholars who believe that the delay in Barbarossa was the single most important reason why Germany did not capture Leningrad and Moscow.

Legitimately uninformed here, who?

 

[Cubert]

No. I’m not. Even if I granted that the Nazis were worst, because they targeted specific groups ( the Soviets did that too), it’s still very debatable.

Under 30 years of Stalinist rule, Ukraine lost 5 million people in a horrific famine.
Under 30 years of Nazi rule, Ukraine would no longer exist.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Nah. The Nazis were worse, they are for full extermination and slavery. Almost cartoonish movie villains.

The Soviets were pretty bad as a nation, but at least they didn't talk about full genocide loudly. This is a pretty low bar but that's our history.

They didn’t talk about genocide loudly? You have heard of the Holodomor, right?

Under 30 years of Stalinist rule, Ukraine lost 5 million people in a horrific famine.
Under 30 years of Nazi rule, Ukraine would no longer exist.

This isn’t something that I’m interested in debating. They’re both awful and which was worse is subjective.

 

[Garrison]

Overall if you want to talk 'best case' for the Nazi's then apart from not starting the war the next best thing is actually working seriously to avoid war with Britain as Hitler constantly claimed to want. OTL they did everything in their power to antagonize the British and I have no idea how they would achieve a rapprochement but since this thread seems to reached a point where plausibility is irrelevant lets just say they do it. The benefits are immense of course. With no British support the French aren't going to go to war over Poland, so Hitler can finish his campaign there and get a real jump on the genocide of the Polish Jews and then the rest of the Polish population before he decides whether he needs to turn on the French or just go east to apply all the techniques perfected in the slaughter in Poland on European Russia in the event the Nazi's win. if they lose of course the dead hand of Stalinism falls on the whole of the European continent and you face a far nastier cold war with a much higher chance of it going hot at some point.

 

[Femto]

This isn’t something that I’m interested in debating. They’re both awful and which was worse is subjective.

If you are not interested in debating then why do you keep talking?

 

[Lee-Sensei]

If you are not interested in debating then why do you keep talking?

I’m not interested in debating this point specifically (which of the two were more evil), because theirs no objective answer. The only reason it started, was because I’d mentioned that the Soviet Union starting the war with Germany, isn’t going to gain them much sympathy in America. Many Americans were isolationists. Admiral Spain said that they’d support the Soviet Union against the most evil regime in history and I said that which of the two was worse is debatable. That’s all. They’re both awful.

 

[Femto]

I’m not interested in debating this point specifically (which of the two were more evil), because theirs no objective answer. The only reason it started, was because I’d mentioned that the Soviet Union starting the war with Germany, isn’t going to gain them much sympathy in America. Many Americans were isolationists. Admiral Spain said that they’d support the Soviet Union against the most evil regime in history and I said that which of the two was worse is debatable. That’s all. They’re both awful.

They would support the USSR cuz Nazi Germany is oppressing more noble places in the mind of the average American, despite the anti-communism.

 

[Cubert]

This isn’t something that I’m interested in debating. They’re both awful and which was worse is subjective.

Subjective is an interesting term. Let's compare some examples.

When the Red Army entered Germany, there were attempts to stop widespread rapes and looting. Unfortunately, these measures were unsuccessful.
When the Wehrmacht entered the Soviet Union, it actively participated in and approved of civilian massacres at every level.

When the Soviets completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, they created repressive satellite states.
Had the Nazis completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, it would've become a German colony built upon mass graves for the majority of the native population.

An average citizen of a country that became a Soviet satellite would eventually live under an authoritarian government without political freedoms.
An average citizen of a country that became a Reichskommissariat would become a slave to be worked to death.

In East Germany, Soviet presence was limited to Red Army garrisons in their bases.
In the various Reichskommissariats, Nazi presence consisted of roving military and paramilitary kill squads, as well as numerous concentration camps.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Subjective is an interesting term. Let's compare some examples.

When the Red Army entered Germany, there were attempts to stop widespread rapes and looting. Unfortunately, these measures were unsuccessful.
When the Wehrmacht entered the Soviet Union, it actively participated in and approved of civilian massacres at every level.

When the Soviets completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, they created repressive satellite states.
Had the Nazis completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, it would've become a German colony built upon mass graves for the majority of the native population.

An average citizen of a country that became a Soviet satellite would eventually live under an authoritarian government without political freedoms.
An average citizen of a country that became a Reichskommissariat would become a slave to be worked to death.

In East Germany, Soviet presence was limited to Red Army garrisons in their bases.
In the various Reichskommissariats, Nazi presence consisted of roving military and paramilitary kill squads, as well as numerous concentration camps.

Well, the main Soviet mass murder, Stalin did get poisoned to death by the Politburo in 1953.
The soviet leaders after Stalin were all rather tame compared to him

 

[Femto]

Subjective is an interesting term. Let's compare some examples.

When the Red Army entered Germany, there were attempts to stop widespread rapes and looting. Unfortunately, these measures were unsuccessful.
When the Wehrmacht entered the Soviet Union, it actively participated in and approved of civilian massacres at every level.

When the Soviets completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, they created repressive satellite states.
Had the Nazis completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, it would've become a German colony built upon mass graves for the majority of the native population.

An average citizen of a country that became a Soviet satellite would eventually live under an authoritarian government without political freedoms.
An average citizen of a country that became a Reichskommissariat would become a slave to be worked to death.

In East Germany, Soviet presence was limited to Red Army garrisons in their bases.
In the various Reichskommissariats, Nazi presence consisted of roving military and paramilitary kill squads, as well as numerous concentration camps.

I agree with your general idea but I believe these are bad examples. The German allies didn't give a shit about how the Wehrmacht treated the people in the Eastern Front. But when the Soviets invaded Europe they had to play low to appease the Western Allies and to not appear too evil in the new Cold War environment. Had Stalin won this war alone he would be tempted to annex the liberated/conquered territory all the way to Germany itself.

 

[Admiral Spaun]

Had Stalin won this war alone he would be tempted to annex the liberated/conquered territory all the way to Germany itself.

Doubtful. Stalin wanted a buffer zone between the democracies and the Soviet Union proper. Also incorporating more ethnic groups into the Soviet Union would be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Cubert]

Well, the main Soviet mass murder, Stalin did get poisoned to death by the Politburo in 1953.

It doesn't matter. Had the Stalinist system continued, Eastern Europe and its peoples would still exist today.

But when the Soviets invaded Europe they had to play low to appease the Western Allies and to not appear too evil in the new Cold War environment.

Or, I know this is a crazy idea but hear me out for a second here, it's because Stalin and the Soviet system didn't consider Germans to be subhumans unworthy of life or Eastern Europe land to be colonized by the Russian people.

Had Stalin won this war alone he would be tempted to annex the liberated/conquered territory all the way to Germany itself.

And the evidence for this lies where exactly? Stalin was against annexing Poland. Stalin's entire shtick was "socialism in one country." Annexing everything up to Germany itself is more of a Trotsky thing.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

They would support the USSR cuz Nazi Germany is oppressing more noble places in the mind of the average American, despite the anti-communism.

Noble places?

Subjective is an interesting term. Let's compare some examples.

When the Red Army entered Germany, there were attempts to stop widespread rapes and looting. Unfortunately, these measures were unsuccessful.
When the Wehrmacht entered the Soviet Union, it actively participated in and approved of civilian massacres at every level.

When the Soviets completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, they created repressive satellite states.
Had the Nazis completed their occupation of Eastern Europe, it would've become a German colony built upon mass graves for the majority of the native population.

An average citizen of a country that became a Soviet satellite would eventually live under an authoritarian government without political freedoms.
An average citizen of a country that became a Reichskommissariat would become a slave to be worked to death.

In East Germany, Soviet presence was limited to Red Army garrisons in their bases.
In the various Reichskommissariats, Nazi presence consisted of roving military and paramilitary kill squads, as well as numerous concentration camps.

1) The Soviet Union vomited horrific massacres as they went west and not only against the Germans. I’m pretty sure that Soviet soldiers raped a lot more than the Germans too. That’s not to say that the Germans didn’t rape. Of course they did. However, this argument in defence of the Soviets is really weird.

‘The Russian soldiers raped every German female from eight to 80’

Antony Beevor, author of the acclaimed new book about the fall of Berlin, on a massive war crime committed by the victorious Red Army

www.theguardian.com

2) You’re talking about what might have happened. Not what actually did happen. Also remember that the Soviet Union wasn’t able to act with impunity. There were other large powers that they had to deal with... most notably the United States. They couldn’t just do whatever they want without censure.

3) This is also very odd. The average person in the Soviet had a miserable life of poverty relative to all of the other major powers of the period with the exception of China. As for the lives of people in German satellites... how bad was the average Romanians treated? Or the average person in northern France?

4) Comparing East Germany to the Reichcomissariats in war time is a bit silly. It would probably be better to compare them to the Soviet Republics. Like Ukraine.

5) Concentration camps are terrible. So are Gulags.

 

[Femto]

Noble places?

Western Europe.