I agree racism did not drive the closure of passenger rail. Public rejection, in my opinion, had to be very generational, given the unexpected and rapid consumer prosperity at the time. But there was a different racist factor in play as African Americans who migrated north for work in the Great Lakes cities had extreme difficulty if they had to drive, given the lack of businesses that would serve them along the way. Rail travel was easier, even though segregated cars were not "equal," but they got to their destinations. So without civil rights, rail closure could have been a much more serious issue.
US Rail System Transportation?
- Thread starter Modern Imperialism
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Another advantage to that arrangement was the fact that it allowed fares to be kept artificially low, since the streetcar division was a loss-leader and because some of those losses could be recouped from the customers' electric bills. The electric companies, in addition to creating the traction power in house, also owned the land for the carhouses, and had most of the special equipment and trained workforce already.
Would harsher punishments in the streetcar conspiracy helped streetcars at all?
marathag
Banned
Except there really wasn't a conspiracy. It's no conspiracy when failing businesses get bought to be broken up. Today it called 'Vulture Capitalism'
Probably not. Many of the cities in which streetcars existed simply didn't have the density required to make streetcars viable, and changing traffic patterns after WWII either decreased ridership, or, in the case of Chicago, exceeded streetcars' capacity and meant that rapid transit like subways and elevated rail made more sense.
Streetcars exist happily in the niche where there is too much traffic for buses but not enough for rapid transit. In cities like Toronto, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Newark, they never went away and are expanding today
What about LA? Surely Pacific Electric could have at least become elevated?
Marc
Donor
Current opinion tends towards two major reasons for the nearly complete demise of streetcars - both of which could have been avoided.
Low fixed prices: streetcar ticket prices were regulated by respective municipalities, and in most cases were hardly raised over decades; the nickel fare was seen as a public right.
Congestion: cars were permitted to drive on streetcar tracks, and that slowed down average speeds tremendously.
Low fixed prices: streetcar ticket prices were regulated by respective municipalities, and in most cases were hardly raised over decades; the nickel fare was seen as a public right.
Congestion: cars were permitted to drive on streetcar tracks, and that slowed down average speeds tremendously.
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Doubtful. Look at a map of Los Angeles... very spread out, and the big problem with PE's operations is that they were all mixed-traffic, and congestion slowed them down. Pacific Electric, by that point, was more of a real estate deveoper than a transit operator and would have nothing to gain by doing so due to the expense involved.
Note now that all of the light rail Los Angeles is putting in is grade-separated and functions more like a rapid transit system than a traditional streetcar. Toronto, Canada and Melbourne, Australia are the two biggest systems where traditional mixed-traffic streetcar operations exist- and even there, new expansion is all grade separated.
I see.
Can you see any possibility where the North Shore survives the same way the South Shore did IOTL?
There wasn't a 'streetcar conspiracy', this article lays things out pretty well.
I thought that streetcars were run by city mass transit departments that simply added buses when they became available. When the economics started to favor buses, the conversion went on. The battle between electric and motor vehicle interests would be obvious, but more localized than grand conspiracy oriented.
On the subject of railroads, what rail lines could truly benefit from electrification?
Marc
Donor
Most streetcars were private companies in their heyday. Same was true in many cities for bus service when those vehicles came along. In fact, subways started out as private concerns. The idea of public ownership of mass transit required some decades to take hold.
While I agree that there wasn't any formal conspiracy, there clearly were in many cities an alignment of interests that worked against streetcars to a degree that accelerated their demise.
I mentioned in an earlier post about the nickel fare that was contractually imposed on most streetcar companies - that reminded me of the 15 cents I used to pay as a boy in New York for either subway or bus; that price was held for 13 years. But here is the kicker: the nickel fare was standard from 1904 to 1948. For the first half of the 20th century, apparently the American public expected that to be the standard fare, and the political class tried to give them what they wanted.
marathag
Banned
Well, in the 1920s, only around 10% of counties were Electrified, and much of that were from the original wind turbines. It only really jumped due to the New Deal, to by the late '40s, almost everyone had power.
'20s is when Electrics had the most benefit in urban areas, to reduce smoke, and elsewhere for use in tunnels.
by the '70s, it's almost too far along to be worth converting
marathag
Banned
The War keeps Diesels from taking over, and gives Steam a few years respite. Without the War, EMD, Fairbanks Morse and Alco would have been selling as many Diesels as possible.
Only New Haven and PRR were doing much with electrics during this time, with the very successful GE GG1 in the areas that's known as the NE Corridor today. They started this due to smoke and ember restrictions for tunnels and urban areas during WWI Want to know more?
My point was that racism is the go-to answer these days and when it is so overused it becomes ignored. When people use "racism" to mean "Anything I don't like" than reports of real racism is treated skeptically.
"Racist" or "Sexist" should only be used in clear cases otherwise you are apt to use the words every time you see something you don't like. Most of the world's problems don't come from bigotry, not to ignore that. But there are a whole host of problems caused by greed, ignorance, hatred of individuals, anger, etc. that often have little or nothing to do with bigotry. A lot of the time the problem is "Life sometimes just sucks".