AHC: Nuclear powered Battleship

Reclassify an existing class and call it a battleship. It is what they did for the cruiser gap.
Yep.. I suppose one could make a case that some of the historical US nuclear powered cruisers could have been considered to be battleships. I suspect a Talos SAM from USS Long Beach hitting a world war two vintage BB would make a significant impact (even without a nuclear warhead.) I am not sure if Talos could be used against surface targets. Maybe add the tested but not deployed light weight 8 inch rapid fire gun and re classify the ship as a BBN.

I also vaguely recall there was some discussion of putting SLBM tubes on USS Long Beach as well.
 
I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen anyone post the obvious way--or what seemed the obvious way to me, anyway--to do this, which is to avoid World War I and World War II altogether. Without battle experience pointing the way away from battleships, they'll likely remain one of the major elements of any fleet that can afford them for quite a while longer than OTL, more than long enough to overlap with the development of nuclear power (remember, navies were early on the nuclear trend...). Once you have that it's no great shake to have one or a few powers commission at least some trial battleships to see if nuclear battleships offer any substantial advantages over conventional ones.

-The only advantage of nuclear power is long range.
Battleships already had the ability to be sent anywhere in world, while their combat missions in contested waters were typically relatively short (i.e. go out, fight, return home for repairs).
I'm not sure why you think "the ability to be sent anywhere in the world" is a trivial or meaningless capability; in fact lining up all the logistical ducks to allow going anywhere in the world consumed quite a substantial amount of time in all the major admiralties from the inception of the battleship onwards. You just have to look at the efforts taken by the Russians to reach Tsushima or the development of underway refueling by the United States to see how much energy it took to actually get the battle fleet forwards. Nuclear power pretty much cuts that all out, at least for the ships that have it.
 

marathag

Banned
I'm not sure why you think "the ability to be sent anywhere in the world" is a trivial or meaningless capability; in fact lining up all the logistical ducks to allow going anywhere in the world consumed quite a substantial amount of time in all the major admiralties from the inception of the battleship onwards. You just have to look at the efforts taken by the Russians to reach Tsushima or the development of underway refueling by the United States to see how much energy it took to actually get the battle fleet forwards. Nuclear power pretty much cuts that all out, at least for the ships that have it.


And the big difference for that near unlimited range, was that it could do that long range at very high average speeds, no need for an economical cruise as to not run out of Bunker C
 
Yes, since IOTL the Iowas were refitted and re-commissioned in the 1980s as the cores of four surface action groups. They would have worn our eventually and the USN may well have considered building nuclear powered replacements had the Cold War continued for longer than it did. Perhaps the replacement would be along the lines of the CSGN of the 1970s, but with at least one heavy calibre gun and more protection.

Though on the subject of a faster Erebus class monitor the USN wanted to build an inshore fire support ship to replace the surviving gun cruisers in the shore bombardment role. This was in the 1960s and IIRC it was to be armed with a few 8" MCLWGs. ITTL the USN might also want some armed with 12" or 16" guns and nuclear propulsion.

CSGN was precisely the ship intended to more or less fill the role. Bearing in mind that it was always meant to carry a couple of 8 inch guns a TL more committed to gunfire could pretty easily butterfly the through deck CSGN designs and have at least some talk of a new 12", ending up with the Mk 71 8 inch in two or three twin mounts.

OTOH my feeling in the real world is that mixing nuclear cruisers and gunfire support in a single hull is questionable, and that given the current state of naval affairs gunfire support is best given with many small ships (hoards of Burke and Perry like ships in the era we're talking about) while escort is better handled by something resembling a cruiser that can mount the long range propulsion, bigger radar arrays, more VLS cells and do it without needing to come in range of fire from shore.

PS: I very much doubt that a Montana build would ever get something other than the 16"/50s unless somebody digs up an 18" gun, the South Dakota guns were fine, but not nearly as capable as what Iowas had - armour penetration might not matter much by the 60s, but if these are really gunfire support ships losing range is a pretty big deal (doubly so once the nuclear shells come into play). If the Iowa's weren't available I think it would be new build (and now i have images of them being designed with the Iowa's guns and French style dual quad turrets in front with missiles in back).
 
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I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen anyone post the obvious way--or what seemed the obvious way to me, anyway--to do this, which is to avoid World War I and World War II altogether. Without battle experience pointing the way away from battleships, they'll likely remain one of the major elements of any fleet that can afford them for quite a while longer than OTL, more than long enough to overlap with the development of nuclear power (remember, navies were early on the nuclear trend...). Once you have that it's no great shake to have one or a few powers commission at least some trial battleships to see if nuclear battleships offer any substantial advantages over conventional ones.


I'm not sure why you think "the ability to be sent anywhere in the world" is a trivial or meaningless capability; in fact lining up all the logistical ducks to allow going anywhere in the world consumed quite a substantial amount of time in all the major admiralties from the inception of the battleship onwards. You just have to look at the efforts taken by the Russians to reach Tsushima or the development of underway refueling by the United States to see how much energy it took to actually get the battle fleet forwards. Nuclear power pretty much cuts that all out, at least for the ships that have it.
The problem is that even without WWI and WWII the battleship is likely going to be on the way out by the late 1940s.

The first thing, and without the World Wars the most important one, is that by the end of WWII battleship design had run headlong into diminishing returns as applied to the cost/firepower curve. While this starts becoming noticeable with the post-treaty generation - the Littorio and Bismarck classes, despite displacing north of 40,000 tons, had firepower not much greater than what 30,000-ton ships had carried twenty years prior, and the Yamatos were over 15,000 tons heavier than, say, an N3 - it's really noticeable with the 1944 design studies for the Lions. Despite staying at 9 16" guns and reducing speed to 26 knots, the design ballooned to nearly 60,000 tons entirely through the demands of enhanced horizontal and underwater protection, and it defied all attempts to go below 55,000 tons without reducing the main battery. It was so bad that the DNC concluded that "the power of modern weapons had increased so much that ever-increasing armour and torpedo protection was required until it became incompatible with the limited offensive power of the ship."

And this isn't something that's likely to go away without the World Wars. Navies were always interested in finding new ways to sink battleships without having to invest in battleships themselves. Investing in more powerful torpedoes is definitely something navies would be all over, as would anything that lets horizontal bombing actually hit something as well once bombers enter the picture.

Then again, if the naval arms race isn't arrested at some point in the 1920s it's liable to escalate to the point of crippling size and cost. The US Navy was already preparing to escalate above 50,000 tons. Either way, at some point there's going to be a sanity check.

The second thing is that while no World Wars is going to slow the transition from battleships to carriers as the battle force, it's not going to stop it. The US Navy was heading in that direction already in 1940, with the Two-Ocean Navy Act being biased far more towards carriers than battleships.
 
The second thing is that while no World Wars is going to slow the transition from battleships to carriers as the battle force, it's not going to stop it. The US Navy was heading in that direction already in 1940, with the Two-Ocean Navy Act being biased far more towards carriers than battleships.
And I never said it would stop it. I said, quite explicitly, that it would slow it. Without a war sinking a lot of battleships and showing just how vulnerable battleships were to air power, the arguments of big-gun admirals are going to carry a heavier weight, particularly in admiralties that didn't really buy into carriers. The point is that without the wars battleships are liable to be considered a first-rate weapon into the '50s or '60s, late enough that it's entirely plausible one or more nations commissions a nuclear battleship if for no other reason than to see how it could be integrated into the fleet.

I never said, after all, that it would be practical or lead to widespread adoption of nuclear battleships, only that it could lead to a few getting built.
 
And I never said it would stop it. I said, quite explicitly, that it would slow it. Without a war sinking a lot of battleships and showing just how vulnerable battleships were to air power, the arguments of big-gun admirals are going to carry a heavier weight, particularly in admiralties that didn't really buy into carriers. The point is that without the wars battleships are liable to be considered a first-rate weapon into the '50s or '60s, late enough that it's entirely plausible one or more nations commissions a nuclear battleship if for no other reason than to see how it could be integrated into the fleet.

I never said, after all, that it would be practical or lead to widespread adoption of nuclear battleships, only that it could lead to a few getting built.
IMHO once workable guided missiles come into service the days of the big gun armoured battle ship are likely to be numbered in most alternate time lines.
 
I'm not sure why you think "the ability to be sent anywhere in the world" is a trivial or meaningless capability;

I've no idea how you got that impression from what I wrote. My phrase "Battleships already had the ability to be sent anywhere in world" flatly contradicts your interpretation.
Global deployment of battleships predated nuclear power by centuries (as you point out, the Russians and others managed it).
I agree shipping coal or oil around the world has its difficulties, but it's still a lot easier than building safe, compact, reliable, powerful nuclear reactors that can stand up to being battered and mishandled in they way they could be aboard anything resembling a gun-armed battleship.

... You just have to look at the efforts taken by the Russians to reach Tsushima or the development of underway refueling by the United States to see how much energy it took to actually get the battle fleet forwards. Nuclear power pretty much cuts that all out, at least for the ships that have it.

Unfortunately, nuclear power cuts very little of it out, just the oilers/colliers for the big ships.
 
-The only advantage of nuclear power is long range.
Battleships already had the ability to be sent anywhere in world, while their combat missions in contested waters were typically relatively short (i.e. go out, fight, return home for repairs).
In their other role as deterrent weapons, rather than fighting ships, they didn't need to go anywhere.
In a vessel with a patrolling mission (e.g. ASW, an AA cruiser or a submarine), there is a clear advantage to being able to stay on-station for a long time, hence nuclear ships of these types have been built. Obviously there are further advantages with subs.
The main advantage of nuclear power is strategic and operational speed not long range. As you say battleships did typically have the ability to be sent anywhere in the world, and they often had fuel to spare for their escorts

But to achieve that range they had to move slowly, a 30 knot battleship would achieve its maximum range at under 15 knots with most of its boilers cold, whereas a nuclear powered ship would be able to make 30 knots until the engineering plant gives out, giving it vastly more strategic and operational speed

Of course the advantages for this were marginal compared to the advantages nuclear power presents escorts (with much less space for fuel and less efficient hull forms), submarines (ability to stay down until the food runs out) or carriers (constantly having to sprint at 30 knots for aircraft ops) but are present. Worth it, probably not in most TLs, you basically have to construct such a TL from before WWI, or possibly earlier specifically for the purpose
 

CalBear

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A battleship isn’t shrugging off Styx missiles with just big dents and scorch marks, I’m sorry. Those are 1000-lb hollow-charge warheads, they’re going to carve through the belt armor like a hot knife through butter. And even if they were just 1000-lb HE that’s still a lot of explosives going off. Something is going to break.


It's a cruiser. The Russians call it a cruiser, not a battlecruiser, for starters. "Battlecruiser" is entirely a Western thing thanks to, as you said, them being over twice the size of Western cruisers. For another, while it's twice the size of Western cruisers, that's Western cruisers being overly small, not the Kirovs being overly big. The size difference between a Kirov and say, a Sverdlov is about as much as, say, a Kotlin and an Udaloy. Ships got big postwar, and the size of a Kirov compared to a WWII cruiser is well in line with other ship types. And finally, while it is an armored ship the scheme (box around the magazines, box around the machinery) has more in common with cruiser armor schemes than any sort of big-gun capital ship.

They're cruisers. Deal with it.
Well, battleships were designed to take hits from 2,700 pound Armor Piercing warheads traveling between MACH 1.5 & 2.2. The shaped charge in the SS-N-2 was very much NOT designed to deal with a foot or so of Class A and STS armor. The Soviets believed that would take several hits from the much larger P-700 to disable (not sink, mission kill) a CVN.

What missiles DO present are serious fire danger (unexpended solid rocket fuel burns at ~4,800°F)
 
How about a conflict between Japan and USN around 1925?
Fought only with a few biplanes, all major losses coming to subs and capital guns. Japan loses and later WW2 stays out of the pacific.

The European war ends without a major carrier battle but has one decisive North Sea battleship engagement.
 

MatthewB

Banned
Thinking of battleship propulsion, forger about nuclear, I don’t think a battleship was ever powered by an internal combustion engine. The Deutschland class cruisers were diesel powered, but everything larger was steam powered. Let’s get a diesel into a battleship before we go nuclear.
 
Thinking of battleship propulsion, forger about nuclear, I don’t think a battleship was ever powered by an internal combustion engine. The Deutschland class cruisers were diesel powered, but everything larger was steam powered. Let’s get a diesel into a battleship before we go nuclear.
Hunh!?!? Why on Earth would you want to do that?
 
As for range at speed, theoretically a nuke powered ship can manufacture fuel for its escorts, from CO2 and water, if necessary. Mind you, the Carriers don't do it OTL, so battleships probably wouldn't ITTL
 

SsgtC

Banned
Thinking of battleship propulsion, forger about nuclear, I don’t think a battleship was ever powered by an internal combustion engine. The Deutschland class cruisers were diesel powered, but everything larger was steam powered. Let’s get a diesel into a battleship before we go nuclear.
Diesels were great for efficiency and range, not so much for high speeds. Boilers and turbines were used because they offered the best combination between the two. You might be able to get a diesel-electric system, but by the time you develop a large enough diesel to power it, gas turbines are on the scene and they are much more attractive than diesel
 

MatthewB

Banned
Diesels were great for efficiency and range, not so much for high speeds. Boilers and turbines were used because they offered the best combination between the two. You might be able to get a diesel-electric system, but by the time you develop a large enough diesel to power it, gas turbines are on the scene and they are much more attractive than diesel
Britain’s new QE class are partially diesel powered, plus gas turbines. Maybe that’s a route.
 
It's a cruiser. The Russians call it a cruiser, not a battlecruiser, for starters. "Battlecruiser" is entirely a Western thing thanks to, as you said, them being over twice the size of Western cruisers. For another, while it's twice the size of Western cruisers, that's Western cruisers being overly small, not the Kirovs being overly big. The size difference between a Kirov and say, a Sverdlov is about as much as, say, a Kotlin and an Udaloy. Ships got big postwar, and the size of a Kirov compared to a WWII cruiser is well in line with other ship types. And finally, while it is an armored ship the scheme (box around the magazines, box around the machinery) has more in common with cruiser armor schemes than any sort of big-gun capital ship.

They're cruisers. Deal with it.
No they are battlecrusiers, Russia names things differently, their aircraft carrier is to them a heavy aircraft cruiser. Its not just on tonnage, its firepower as well. However even on tonnage, 28000t does not even make it the smallest battlecrusier, its bigger than some battleships that fought in WW2. The biggest Heavy cruiser built comes in around 17000t ( ignoring the Alaska's which politics got involved with ). As for the armor layout that's pretty much the same an evolution of the all or nothing as used on all the later battleships.
 
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