Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)

So... not accurate, then?

Clearly some professional jargon at work here just sailed over my head.

It would suggest they had the bearing and range and their shells were landing all around the target.

At range, if you are on target then it’s like hitting a dart board - you’re in the right area and if you can maintain that then sheer weight of numbers means you should eventually hit the bulls eye - that is, the ship.

If I were on a warship being fired on by an enemy battleship and incoming salvo after incoming salvo was throwing up splashes only a little short, a little long, a little wide - I’d regard that as accurate fire and count my lucky stars they hadn’t got a hit.
 
Uhuh. And just what is the plan for unloading a barge on an English beach, and then getting those supplies to where they are needed ?

Note they - being competent at this stuff - were using purpose built landing craft, and the driving combat-loaded vehicles off them before the landing craft went back for another load.

Logistics. It's hard.

As posted under the alternative KM, the KM needed to reform the Marine Korps like the imperial navy if the were to have any chance of sea lion (landing side).

It had good cruise ships to use as LSI. With LCVP on divets and LCM, they could practice in the Baltic and Nth Sea.

No new ship construction.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
So... not accurate, then?

Clearly some professional jargon at work here just sailed over my head.

Perhaps salvos straddling the target (which is practical terms is the intention), but not actually achieving hits?

http://www.hmshood.com/ship/fire_control.htm
Straddle: when the shells fired as a salvo land on either side of the target. Straddling was actually the Gunnery Officer's goal: it was very difficult to actually see a hit, particularly if the shells were bursting behind armour. Moreover, straddles maximised the probability of getting a hit. When straddling the target, statistically, some of the shells should actually have been striking home: perhaps 30%.​
 
That study of 8 liters a day in desert is about right. You don't need dead cows...the Germans are bringing along lots of horses, which produce ~35lbs or 16kg of manure a day, and ~2.5 gal or 11-12 liters of urine a day. The defecate/urinate frequently and are not fussy about when and where they do so. Streams will become contaminated from that source pretty readily, and I expect more than a few dead bodies will end up in water sources. Untreated water will rapidly be poison, and even if the worst that happens to any soldier is severe diarrhea, that is as incapacitating as a bullet wound. Filtering any turbid water followed by chemical treatment (chlorine bleach works) or boiling is going to be necessary for ANY water used for consumption. Difficult, not really but takes organization, discipline, the ability to move water to disinfection points and then distribute it, and also the fuel to boil or chemicals to clean.

BTW if you don't clean your hands and then eat your rations, well didn't your mom tell you to wash your hands after you used the bathroom?? Sadly for the germans those handy-dandy little bottles of hand sanitizer aren't there so the lyster bag and soap are needed...

Remind me which the German Army used to disinfect water, chloride or iodine?

And

The German Army invented the hexamine stove?

And

Correct me if I’m not wrong, alcohol based sanitizers don’t kill norovirus, the leading cause of gastrointestinal infections?
 
Not strictly true, there were two minelayers and six mine ships capable between them of carrying something in the region of 3000 mines. All destroyers were equiped to carry 60 odd mines and the torpedo boats 30 odd mines each. The minesweepers had room for 30 mines apiece and subs had mine carrying capacity as well.

As was mentioned, if the DD's and TB's are laying mines they are not escorting the invasion fleet. They can't be in two places at once.

i would be surprised if there wasn t a bunch of dead cows upstream of any river/creek that ran into the german lines.Basically just the other side of the british lines.

If the German's are nearby the cows will be dead. It was planned that the German's would get nothing from the land, so things like panzer's driving up to gas stations and filling up like they did in France won't be happening here.

And I agree, troops near the beaches will need water delivered until they get inland and near creeks/streams. Assuming they get off the beachhead in the first place. And I can easily see snipers around to shoot anyone trying to get water...
 
Hate to bring up the elephant in the room but won't an awful lot of Germans be rather busy washing off Paris Green?
Well they'd probably have to make it at least half way across the channel before then ran into that particular issue.

Also, the Coastal guns aren't accurate, but surely hitting a port filled with slow-moving or immobile barges couldn't be that hard could it? I mean, even in they don't actually hit anything, it'd still cause the Germans to lose sleep.
 

Ian_W

Banned
As posted under the alternative KM, the KM needed to reform the Marine Korps like the imperial navy if the were to have any chance of sea lion (landing side).

It had good cruise ships to use as LSI. With LCVP on divets and LCM, they could practice in the Baltic and Nth Sea.

No new ship construction.

I'm trying to think of anything that would get the RN and the British Establishment to go more completely in favour of backing the French in the Rhineland in 1936 than Germany building an independent Marine Korps.

Nope, can't do it. As of 1936, Tommies are joining the French in the Rhineland.
 
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Deleted member 94680

I'm trying to think of anything that would get the RN and the British Establishment to go completely in favour of backing the French in the Rhineland in 1936 than Germany building an independent Marine Korps.

Nope, can't do it. As of 1936, Tommies are joining the French in the Rhineland.

This. Massive warning flag to Britannia.

“Err... what are you building a Marine Corps for, Fritz old boy?”

“What? Hmm, that? It’s for, it’s for... crossing rivers in Central Europe. Yes! Crossing the rivers and crossing the rivers only!”

“Riiiiiight, I see” *gets France on the phone*
 

Garrison

Donor
I'm trying to think of anything that would get the RN and the British Establishment to go more completely in favour of backing the French in the Rhineland in 1936 than Germany building an independent Marine Korps.

Nope, can't do it. As of 1936, Tommies are joining the French in the Rhineland.

Yep, you can't mount Sealion with the resources available to the Wehrmacht in 1940 and if you wind the clock back to have an earlier POD in the 1930's you are either going to provoke the British to take a tougher line in 1936/38 or if the British somehow cling to appeasement even in the face of that the Heer's probably too weak to carry out 'Sickle Cut' and France doesn't fall, so nowhere to use that amphibious capability from. Of course the notion that the incredibly resource limited Reich is going to spend them on building up an amphibious assault capability for use against a country it doesn't want to fight is absurd to say the least.
 
Perhaps salvos straddling the target (which is practical terms is the intention), but not actually achieving hits?

Straddling, that's the word. Generally, as I understand it, at range, the grouping of shells will be larger, so the hit percentages will be lower. As the range drops, the accuracy increases, that is, you're on target earlier, and the grouping is smaller, so more hits.

If we look at Washington versus Kirishima, the former is said to have opened fire at the short range of only 8400 yards, and hit with 20 of 75 shells. Now that's regarded as exceptional so you might think - and Glenn will certainly argue - that there's a lot of ammunition expenditure needed to gain hits.

But this is why the Royal Navy will close the range before opening fire, and also you have to remember when you're firing at a large convoy of barges and so forth, a miss on your target might end up being a near-miss on another target that disables the vessel.

If a battleship - with her escorts - gets in among the German invasion fleet, at night, then it will sink many more than a handful.
 
I'm trying to think of anything that would get the RN and the British Establishment to go more completely in favour of backing the French in the Rhineland in 1936 than Germany building an independent Marine Korps.

Nope, can't do it. As of 1936, Tommies are joining the French in the Rhineland.

Depends how you play it.

The Germans developed their tanks in Soviet Union, sub in Holland.....

Strength thou joy, has nice landing “boats” to take all those happy Nazis ashore.

Exercise in the Baltic, ready to take out the Reds!

Britain and France both “rushed” to help Poland. Didn’t they?

Peace in our time.
 
I've already noted that it's hard for the German soldiers to jump overboard from a roofed barge, but as a key point here, German soldiers in the water cannot, by definition, invade Britain. Yes, they can be rescued, but there's no guarantee that the craft that rescues them will be going to the right place. They may well also have ditched their gear to stay afloat in the water - even as a keen swimmer, I don't fancy trying to carry a rifle, a steel helmet and a knapsack full of kit while trying to tread water and wait for a rescue that might take a good few hours to reach me.

It is also possible, I would say HIGHLY PROBABLE even, that whatever rescues them will be flying the wrong flag. At which point any bright ideas to take over the ship and sail to England anyways ends when the two men with Lewis guns in the tops spray the mass of rioting POW's down with MG fire the moment they start to riot.
 
“Sealion threads: come for the reasoned, fact-backed debate - stay for the laughs!”

I'd argue that it's the other way round - the laughs tend to come first, the interesting stuff develops from details people bring up while trying to bash some sense into the latest halfwit.
 
Not for the first time on this thread, I burst out laughing.
Don't you see the genius of it though? I mean, if you keep on sending supplies to a non-existent army you might be able to actually convince the poms the army really exists, and thus, that they must have been conquered....
:openedeyewink:
 
@soothsayer : Without going to the references I can't be sure whether the Germans used chloride or iodine or both - it does not matter my point was either one (US purification tablets were iodine based) you need to do something to disinfect the water. Likewise, using hexamine stoves, or kettles over wood fires is not relevant just boiling the water. Finally against norovirus, and other viruses, alcohol based sanitizers are to be used in addition to (not in place of) hand washing per the CDC. Again, my point was that while now the sanitizers can be readily carried and used, even if not as good as hot water and a soap scrub they are portable and much better than nothing.

Absent provision for disinfecting water (or providing water delivered from France), adequate supplies for handwashing etc you WILL end up very quickly with soldiers who are dehydrated and/or with rather nasty diarrhea and ineffective or completely out of the fight. BTW if you have nasty diarrhea, you will become even more dehydrated - the dehydration of cholera ("rice water stools") and depletion of electrolytes is what does you in. Not that the Germans will get cholera in England, just pointing out that there is more to that problem than running to shit every 15-30 minutes.
 

TDM

Kicked
There's two phases, Sealion itself, and then the battle of the supply chain to the beachhead. Sealion is 72 hours. The supply chain battle could last into 1941 or even 1942. In terms of the KM vulnerability, it's more vulnerable for Sealion than during the supply phase. This is because (a) shipping density is very high for the invasion, very low for the daily supply requirements; (b) once the beachhead is established, the mine barriers on each flank get thicker and thicker, the coastal batteries on the English side get more numerous and more effective, and the RN becomes less and less able to get into the shipping channel, (it doesn't appear to me Sandhurst simulated this aspect of Sealion, the increasing difficulty the RN encounters just getting into the shipping channel as time goes on. If not, this would borders on outright diingeniousness on the part of the game masters). As the minefields evolve and Siebel Ferry/MFP production ramps up to the 100's per month, the British are in trouble.

What mine fields? the KM had 2 actual mine layers and a few converted boats that could in lay mines. The British had how many mine sweepers? Not mention KM minelayers won't last long on the channel.

What coastal batteries on the English side, any coastal batteries on the English side will be English and not German!

Seriously you making up entirely imaginary forces now!

It's irrelevant anyway as the Supply chain battle will last as long as there are Germans on British soil which is to say not very long at all.

Sandhurst didn't model this fantasy 2nd stage because they realised dead German don't need supplies, and captive ones have their supply needs taken care off by their host!

Figure that air supply must be done by night to avoid the RAF fighters and that the standard radio navigation aids are used to ensure drop accuracy. I don't think these can be jammed because the drop zones are on the coast with no British territory between the transmitters and the receiving aircraft.

I'm not 100% sure what you are actually referring to, do you mean the navigation beams the LW used to use? (yes they can be jammed or spoofed, no they're not that accurate they were used for hitting cities not the kind of small scale drop sites)




What, this RAF with AIM-9L sidewinders again? Get it through your head. Fighter command cannot stop the Luftwaffe from generating massive numbers of combat sorties in the Channel in September 1940. They can attrite, they can degrade, they can screen, but they cannot stop. The LW cannot stop the RAF either.

Yes you said this already, once again repeating the same unsupported assertion doesn't make it less wrong.

No need for sidewinders what you seem to be ignorant off is that the LW will have two choices try and stop the RN and get shot out the sky because it concentrating on the RN , or try not get get shot out the sky by concentrating on the RAF, but that means ignoring the RN and their job. Third option attempt to do both, succeed at neither. (Of course since they can do the first job anyway as the LW isn't great at hitting fast moving RN ships and on top of that there's more than enough RN to do their job so they can take some hits).

It's very simple the only way Sealion works (and even then only this part of it) is if the LW can stop the RN from stopping the invasion "fleet", if they can't they are wasting their time. Now the RAF only has to stop them doing that job to win, of course if they also shoot doen large chunk of the LW that extra win.

However again you seem to be doing this victory condition maths in your head that if a German force is not completely 100% stopped it therefore achieves it's victory aims, (weather that's the LW here, or some barges get through, or even a few soggy Grremans make it ashore) that's really not how it works.


The Pacific War in 1942 - fighter defenses could not stop bomber attacks being made even from 500 miles away.

I almost hate to ask but what need ill matched scenario are you fancifully comparing too now?!

BUt OK you want to send bombers (as in all of them and not just your Ju87's), fine as I said ealier LW bombers were shit at hitting the RN, they need Torpedo bombers (and to be trained in their use) they have neither.


I love how in this Sealion battle the RAF and RN are making all-out efforts with suicidal levels of determination, but the Luftwaffe is, what, on vacation or something? The LW for Sealion has 2,000 or more combat aircraft of all types, plus more that can fly in from Norway and Italy. They have a massive, well supplied, well prepared air base network on the coast of France capable of generating large numbers of combat sorties for the entire LW. Their invasion picks a sunny day with calm waters. The RN attacks at or before dawn into waters less than 50 miles from practically the entire Luftwaffe. How do you figure that 2,000 aircraft can't generate an average of 3 combat sorties each on game day in those conditions?

Oh Jesus, what 2000 planes have they got, what crews have they got? Which are they using? This is a direct continuation of the BoB. Yes of course the LW will do it's best but it's already tried that and lost, and there's nothing new in Sealion to change that. Will they shoot some RAF down yep, will they even sink or stop some RN yep most likely. But they won't be able to do what you suggest and they will instead of losing and calling it a day as they did in the BoB, they likely cease to exist as a meaningful force trying this in this manner and will need to be built from scratch, men and machines.

There is nothing in the Battle of Britain analogous to the levels of effort the LW and RAF would devote into the first 72 hours of Sealion. For Bob, half a sortie per day was fine - the campaign was lasting months. For Sealion, game day is 24 hours, not 90 days. It's not about a series of programmed raids stretched out over the course of months. It's a winner take all slugfest in the Channel where the absolute maximum number of sorties needs to be generated in 72 hours.

Ahh so you think the LW weren't really trying during the BoB, and you came to this explanation because the RL sortie rate from the BoB even during periods of maximum effort are not enough for your made up bullshit sortie numbers.



Because the resupply effort can be made strong enough that the British can't collapse the pocket.

1). the resupply effort has to come via sea (and so through the RN) or air (and so through the RAF) there won't be much getting through.

2). It doesn't matter because unless you work out a way to transport Panzer divisions (with support), and artillary formations (with support) there's still just the same under quipped infantry and will get pushed back to the sea where the RN will shell them.

3). these pockets will be under constant artillery barrage because frankly there's there nothing in the German pocket to stop it.


Meanwhile, the British have lost Gibraltar and Malta,

What?

the Germans have occupied Tunisia and are pushing through to Egypt in strength,

What, what?

the Italians are holding on in East Africa, the Soviets have occupied Iran.

What the fuck!

In the Atlantic, the British are watching the Twins and Bismarck run rampant because the Admiralty thought it would be a good idea to commit the KGV's and BC's to the Channel.

Sealion as a diversion for this might work (it would be expensive but what ever), but given the Sealion will be overin days they better be quick!
 
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