An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
Wow how much money does the Empire have to be able to afford another big expense? Also, the Georgians have struck gold, a proper anti Ottoman pact and a golden sweetener for something falling into their lap? Also, we haven't heard about Jahzara for a while, wasn't she on bad terms with her husband?
IIRC, their relationship didn't seem antagonistic but rather like that of a mother nurturing her child out into the world (subject to constant pressure during metamorphosis in his cocoon). Ok enough metaphors for now
Well I guess that's the end of that marriage. Now I really want to know what was said in that conversation between Andreas and Elisabeth.
When the succession war does come about, I have a feeling the Anatolian Themata are going to side in favor of one of Andreas' bastards or Odysseus over some foreign claimant or distant cousin. They really seemed to love him and appreciate him for hearing their grievances, trying to make their lives better, and generally living among them and being essentially one of them. So it wouldn't surprise me if they support his "chosen" successor until the end.
When the succession war does come about, I have a feeling the Anatolian Themata are going to side in favor of one of Andreas' bastards or Odysseus over some foreign claimant or distant cousin. They really seemed to love him and appreciate him for hearing their grievances, trying to make their lives better, and generally living among them and being essentially one of them. So it wouldn't surprise me if they support his "chosen" successor until the end.
Oh let me see. The following is standard Byzantine law, as a matter of fact it was still applicable to post-independence Greece so applies to Andreas and Elizabeth as well.
1. Adultery
2. Accusation of adultery without proof
3. Bringing home an adulterer/prostitute (Maria technically counts based on Leo VI laws)
4. Forcing into prostitution
5. Prostitution
6. Magic, stealing, murder, tomb raiding, stealing from churches, conspiring against the emperor
7. Threatening the life of the wife/husband
8. The wife being beaten up by the husband
9. The couple wanting to become monks
10. The couple not having intercourse for 3 years
11. The wife sleeping outside of her husband's home, without his permission
12. The wife being together with other men in banquets or public baths without the husband's permission. The wife visiting the theatre or the hippodrome against the husband's wishes.
Now Elizabeth can obviously ask for a divorce on account of 1 and 3 at a minimum but more significantly Andreas can use 10, 11 and 12. Andreas was away from the White Palace for a year. Elizabeth kept inside the White palace for said whole year? Never once went to the theater or the Hippodrome or slept out of the White Palace etc. Did she have Andreas express permission doing so? His majesty's judges, err lawyers say no. Nevermind the 3 years she was not accepting him.
In short as long as he's willing to pay the price of pissing off the German emperor and sweetening properly the patriarch he can get his divorce
So Andreas isn't really following his namesake, huh? not much love for his wife (understatement of the century, although two prior of the current one), but he understoood his duties. Seems very stupid.
I did update the family tree (I'll wait for the War of succession to post it): a minor nitpick about Ethiopia
In the 1625 update it was stated (about the line of succession): (about Veronica) "Her eldest son Yohannes though is more impressive"
In the 1584 update (31/4/2014) it was stated that "Veronica has two living sons, Giyorgis and Quastantinos"
They may have died, so this one may be the eldest (surviving) son, just pointing out (the rebellion of his younger brother rebellion of 1599 may have come too late for the current emperor to dislike the name for a third or fourth child).
I did update the family tree (I'll wait for the War of succession to post it): a minor nitpick about Ethiopia
In the 1625 update it was stated (about the line of succession): (about Veronica) "Her eldest son Yohannes though is more impressive"
In the 1584 update (31/4/2014) it was stated that "Veronica has two living sons, Giyorgis and Quastantinos"
They may have died, so this one may be the eldest (surviving) son, just pointing out (the rebellion of his younger brother rebellion of 1599 may have come too late for the current emperor to dislike the name for a third or fourth child).
@Basileus444, I just want to say that I love this timeline and will continue to do so no matter what, but I don't honestly like the turn AOM appears to be about to take. You just had a century of mediocre rule and fortunes after the ToT, and now a civil war is looming with nary a Golden Age in between (I personally don't count the Flowering, automatic demographic and cultural recovery from decades of civil war does not a Golden Age make). I do want this timeline to be roughly balanced, but the Rhomans seem to be on a downward trend alternating with mere stagnation.
Unless, of course, certain things are red herrings and things turn out better for Rhome than I think they will.
Unless, of course, certain things are red herrings and things turn out better for Rhome than I think they will.
They just intervened in Persia and either got off scot free or with gains made (I honestly don't know which). Either way, this implies that they're in a malaise not a downward trend. And civil wars aren't the end of a nation. The Romans came through the Troubles intact.
Yes, the current reign is at least stagnation if not upward-trending stagnation. But it's still not looking like a significant improvement after which a civil war would restore narrative balance.
For example, before the original ToT, Andreas broke Europe and remade it in his own badass image. I would have been dissatisfied if there hadn't been a ToT-like event afterwards, it would have stretched my sense of the hydraulics of history, if you will. But now it just feels like a fall off a plateau, rather than a descent from a mountain.
It does seem a little odd.
The Triunes were explictly united by a kid who fancied himself a Triune Andreas, Iskandar was easily the Persian one, and we had foreshadowing of a second Roman Andreas. I'm REALLY hoping Post-Plague Persia will learn not to rest on its laurels.
Gah, where is that little Napoleon. I can't bare the wait!
Not even a second Andreas, a Roman Genghis Khan. Speaking of which, how does Andreas Niketas rank in the pantheon of TTL history's greatest conquerors? Compared to say Alexander, Julius Caesar, Trajan, Genghis Khan or even Timur?
What I'm worried the most about the coming war is the power projection of the Empire. the Core is more or less safe, the borders are becoming fixed (even with the Ottomans), future wars should look like the French-Spanish ones. The bigger problem is SE Asia, the area has been neglected recently and the coming war may spell doom for it (with the establishment of Spain giving a boost to Portuguese efforts and that's ignoring Triunes and Dutch).
B444 said the closest OTL equivalent of the War of the Roman Succession was the Austrian Succession War. IIRC most the that conflict was fought outside the Austrian Empire or on the fringes of it, although I'm unsure of what exact territories a TTL Prussia equivalent could take. But Andreas III is still young, circumstances may change very severely between now and his death.
Napoleon graduated from the military academy when he was 16 and had his first major victory at 24 so we'll probably see some action in the 1630s considering he's only eleven now.
Honestly Andreas would be highly placed amongst the second rank, but still in the second rank. Andreas did achieve European supremacy and expanded the empire to a level not seen in a thousand years from a very low ebb, but he still started as the heir to the Rhoman throne. Alexander conquered the biggest empire in the world in a decade, and Temujin was a random nomad who created the world's biggest land empire ever.
Charcolt: That would be the smart thing, although throughout history, including Byzantine history, promoting someone as heir, then replacing them with someone else (say a legitimate son by Maria), often tends to really annoy the now ex-heir, who has a substantial legitimacy boost from their former heir status.
Aegon IV?
The Safavid claim to the throne is entirely dependent on their marriage ties with the Drakoi-Bagrationi. Only once Anna and Vakhtang’s son David takes the throne with the Safavid takeover be really complete.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: There’s a lot of stuff the Romans can do with Iskandar the Younger, although right now the White Palace is only thinking that he’s a useful tool with which to troll Ibrahim.
Young Kalomeros will appear in the update after next.
MarshalofMontival: Lascaris answered this much better than I could.
HanEmpire: We’ll see.
Boa: First off, I apologize for the butchering of your username. I type up my responses in a word processor to avoid timing-out issues and I don’t have Greek characters on my keyboard. Hope it doesn’t bother you.
I do like the audacity of having the Ottoman dynasty ruling Rhomania, plus with the Safavids in Georgia. Just need to arrange the Mughals of reunited Russia…
Aishio: As for what happened in there, history is going to be silent on that. Some things are just better left mysterious.
Jkarr: Methinks you will like the new Triune monarch…
JohnSmith: The amount paid to the Georgians is what it costs to maintain a line tagma for 16 months, so it’s a big expense but not enough to break the bank. Plus there’s the Imperial Bank to draw on if the state needs a loan and its credit is still very good which keeps interest rates down.
Jahzara will be in the next update.
EarlMarshal: The Eastern Anatolian tagmata especially have a liking for warrior Emperors named Andreas who share the rigors of the ranks (Andreas Niketas, Andreas Drakos before he became Andreas II, Andreas “III” of the War of the Rivers). Also keep in mind that Leo Neokastrites is out in Trebizond; he’s quite old now and a “junior” strategos, but definitely the most popular amongst the ranks.
Lascaris: Thank you for answering MarshalofMontival’s question. I’m grateful for your assistance, especially since I know I have a history of making an ass of myself when it comes to Orthodox theology and church practice.
Arrix85: In fairness to Andreas III compared to Andreas I, Vlad Dracula did arrange to get Kristina of Rus out of Constantinople. If he hadn’t, the conduct of Andreas I then would be like that of Andreas III now. Although that said, Andreas I did sleep with his wife after he returned from Sicily despite having a new mistress, so he still admittedly comes out looking better than his namesake.
Regarding Ethiopian princes, that is a mistake on my part. The eldest son of Tewodros and Veronica is Crown Prince Giyorgis, so he’s the one with a claim to the throne of Rhomania. The only Yohannes in this time period is the father of Jahzara who tried to seize the throne from his older brother.
Southeast Asia is looking shaky with the boost to the Spanish, plus the Triunes getting involved. But all three of the Roman Katepanates in the area have been having pretty solid successes against the locals, albeit nothing spectacular.
Luis3007: Glorious messes are more fun to write and read, I think.
Frustrated Progressive: I understand how you feel, but I will point out that even highly successful states often have very bad periods (France in the 1300s and early 1400s and late 1500s, Russia during the Time of Troubles, Byzantium itself in the 600s and early 700s). Also keep in mind that I do like plot twists.
Roland Traveler: They took back some of the territories ceded at Mashhadshar. Right now the Romans are at a ‘two steps back, one step forward’ stage, but Andreas is laying groundwork to make up for that step as you’ll see in the next update.
Babyrage: I’d put Andreas definitely in the top 10 of history, although I don’t know I’d go so far as say top 5. He doubled, at minimum, the size of the Empire. But he started out with a large and powerful Empire, so it’s not as impressive to me as the likes of Genghis Khan or Timur or even Alexander who started out with little (particularly the first two) and forged gigantic empires. If we go by specifically Roman history though, I think the only people in Andreas’ league are Julius Caesar and 620s Herakleios I.
ImperatorAlexander: I remember saying that, although since then my outline of the war has changed quite a bit. Now I can’t think of an OTL conflict that is a good mirror of the War of the Roman Succession, like the OTL Long Turkish War mirrored the Eternal War. The War of the Austrian Succession is still the closest match I can think of, but the analogy can’t be taken too far.
Apologies if that comes out as somewhat incoherent; I want to avoid spoilers.
Aegon IV?
The Safavid claim to the throne is entirely dependent on their marriage ties with the Drakoi-Bagrationi. Only once Anna and Vakhtang’s son David takes the throne with the Safavid takeover be really complete.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: There’s a lot of stuff the Romans can do with Iskandar the Younger, although right now the White Palace is only thinking that he’s a useful tool with which to troll Ibrahim.
Young Kalomeros will appear in the update after next.
MarshalofMontival: Lascaris answered this much better than I could.
HanEmpire: We’ll see.
Boa: First off, I apologize for the butchering of your username. I type up my responses in a word processor to avoid timing-out issues and I don’t have Greek characters on my keyboard. Hope it doesn’t bother you.
I do like the audacity of having the Ottoman dynasty ruling Rhomania, plus with the Safavids in Georgia. Just need to arrange the Mughals of reunited Russia…
Aishio: As for what happened in there, history is going to be silent on that. Some things are just better left mysterious.
Jkarr: Methinks you will like the new Triune monarch…
JohnSmith: The amount paid to the Georgians is what it costs to maintain a line tagma for 16 months, so it’s a big expense but not enough to break the bank. Plus there’s the Imperial Bank to draw on if the state needs a loan and its credit is still very good which keeps interest rates down.
Jahzara will be in the next update.
EarlMarshal: The Eastern Anatolian tagmata especially have a liking for warrior Emperors named Andreas who share the rigors of the ranks (Andreas Niketas, Andreas Drakos before he became Andreas II, Andreas “III” of the War of the Rivers). Also keep in mind that Leo Neokastrites is out in Trebizond; he’s quite old now and a “junior” strategos, but definitely the most popular amongst the ranks.
Lascaris: Thank you for answering MarshalofMontival’s question. I’m grateful for your assistance, especially since I know I have a history of making an ass of myself when it comes to Orthodox theology and church practice.
Arrix85: In fairness to Andreas III compared to Andreas I, Vlad Dracula did arrange to get Kristina of Rus out of Constantinople. If he hadn’t, the conduct of Andreas I then would be like that of Andreas III now. Although that said, Andreas I did sleep with his wife after he returned from Sicily despite having a new mistress, so he still admittedly comes out looking better than his namesake.
Regarding Ethiopian princes, that is a mistake on my part. The eldest son of Tewodros and Veronica is Crown Prince Giyorgis, so he’s the one with a claim to the throne of Rhomania. The only Yohannes in this time period is the father of Jahzara who tried to seize the throne from his older brother.
Southeast Asia is looking shaky with the boost to the Spanish, plus the Triunes getting involved. But all three of the Roman Katepanates in the area have been having pretty solid successes against the locals, albeit nothing spectacular.
Luis3007: Glorious messes are more fun to write and read, I think.
Frustrated Progressive: I understand how you feel, but I will point out that even highly successful states often have very bad periods (France in the 1300s and early 1400s and late 1500s, Russia during the Time of Troubles, Byzantium itself in the 600s and early 700s). Also keep in mind that I do like plot twists.
Roland Traveler: They took back some of the territories ceded at Mashhadshar. Right now the Romans are at a ‘two steps back, one step forward’ stage, but Andreas is laying groundwork to make up for that step as you’ll see in the next update.
Babyrage: I’d put Andreas definitely in the top 10 of history, although I don’t know I’d go so far as say top 5. He doubled, at minimum, the size of the Empire. But he started out with a large and powerful Empire, so it’s not as impressive to me as the likes of Genghis Khan or Timur or even Alexander who started out with little (particularly the first two) and forged gigantic empires. If we go by specifically Roman history though, I think the only people in Andreas’ league are Julius Caesar and 620s Herakleios I.
ImperatorAlexander: I remember saying that, although since then my outline of the war has changed quite a bit. Now I can’t think of an OTL conflict that is a good mirror of the War of the Roman Succession, like the OTL Long Turkish War mirrored the Eternal War. The War of the Austrian Succession is still the closest match I can think of, but the analogy can’t be taken too far.
Apologies if that comes out as somewhat incoherent; I want to avoid spoilers.