Impact of purged Zhukov?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

Georgy Zhukov is generally thought of as either one of the best commanders of WW2 due to winning it on the Eastern Front or just the lucky guy to get the credit for being the guy in charge during the win and wasted a lot of live unnecessarily. Certainly his record is somewhat mixed, but he was the guy that Stalin would listen to and he did certainly have victories to his credit, including taking Berlin. So what if he was out of the picture, say he ran afoul of Beria and got purged in the late 1930s. What happens without him? Who replaces him as Stalin's fire-fighter and what happens with the border clashes in Mongolia in 1939? Could the Soviets win without Zhukov?
 

Insider

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I do not belong to the Zhukov fans party. I think that any somewhat competent general could fill his place, and there were commanders in Red Army that had much bigger potential. Of course it might happen that Red Army would end up in a hands of completely loyal idiot like Kliment Voroshilov, who IMHO could very well loose the war for Soviet Union.
 

Deleted member 1487

I do not belong to the Zhukov fans party. I think that any somewhat competent general could fill his place, and there were commanders in Red Army that had much bigger potential. Of course it might happen that Red Army would end up in a hands of completely loyal idiot like Kliment Voroshilov, who IMHO could very well loose the war for Soviet Union.
Yeah Voroshilov would have been bad, but I thought he discredited himself with the handling of the Winter War?
 

Insider

Banned
Yeah Voroshilov would have been bad, but I thought he discredited himself with the handling of the Winter War?
Well... the danger is, once you eliminate Zhukov from the equation during the Great Purge, the command structure would be rearranged in 1939. We could end up Voroshilov drying up wine cellars in Crimea during the winter war. Secondly, he wasn't only incompetent yes-man among the senior officers. I could dig up specific names, but that would take some time.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well... the danger is, once you eliminate Zhukov from the equation during the Great Purge, the command structure would be rearranged in 1939. We could end up Voroshilov drying up wine cellars in Crimea during the winter war. Secondly, he wasn't only incompetent yes-man among the senior officers. I could dig up specific names, but that would take some time.
Oh fair point. Yeah that could be really bad for the USSR. Even if all Zhukov did was keep Voroshilov out of command in 1941, that alone probably made him vital. Stalin loved Budyonny too long too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny
Of course Timoshenko was pretty solid I think and he did end up being the guy that broke Finland. Had he been in charge he could have been probably decent, though maybe not as good as Zhukov.
 

Insider

Banned
Oh fair point. Yeah that could be really bad for the USSR. Even if all Zhukov did was keep Voroshilov out of command in 1941, that alone probably made him vital. Stalin loved Budyonny too long too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Budyonny
Well... for the bad guys Budyonny was in upper echelon. I am more concerned about people like Pavlov... or Vlasov. Others like Mikchail Kriponos I cannot gauge. He was kind of victim of circumstances, he made a few bad choices, but there is no say that Germans wouldn't adapt and defeat him had he decided to do differently.

As for the good guys, giving Konev the power that Zhukov had would be interesting. Rokossovsky was fairly competent and had ability to think on his own, but he would had to become Stalins pet project to advance in ranks so quickly. Of course if you could spare Mikhail Tukhachevsky, and kill Zhukov, well... we would be typing in Russian now. :biggrin:
 
The Soviets had many other good generals during the war so the Soviets can easily replace him over the long term. Konev, Rokossovsky, Vatutin, Chuikov and many others are in his peer group. Over time, they will all rise to the top.

It is more problematic when we talk of the 1941 period though as Zhukov was a high senior commander in charge of the critical fronts of Leningrad and Moscow. At those places and at that time, the individual commander is extremely important as a German victory in either place will affect the course of the Barbarossa campaign and thus the war. And I don't think any of the most able Red Army commanders would be in the right place to take over. Much more likely a mediocrity would be in charge, or that Stalin would see fit to micromanage the commanders and botch it up big time.

Zhukov was a great commander, but like everyone else he had his weaknesses.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well... for the bad guys Budyonny was in upper echelon. I am more concerned about people like Pavlov... or Vlasov. Others like Mikchail Kriponos I cannot gauge. He was kind of victim of circumstances, he made a few bad choices, but there is no say that Germans wouldn't adapt and defeat him had he decided to do differently.

As for the good guys, giving Konev the power that Zhukov had would be interesting. Rokossovsky was fairly competent and had ability to think on his own, but he would had to become Stalins pet project to advance in ranks so quickly. Of course if you could spare Mikhail Tukhachevsky, and kill Zhukov, well... we would be typing in Russian now. :biggrin:

Vlasov was supposed to be a decent commander, it seemed like he only defected because he was worried about returning to Moscow to face Stalin after the disaster of 2nd Shock army...that and I think genuinely being upset at Stalin for his incompetence. In 1941 he was one of the principles in saving Moscow IIRC, so was still pretty decent overall.

Tukhachevsky was a decent theorist, that doesn't mean he'd be a good commander in practice. His record in Poland in 1920 wasn't the greatest.

The Soviets had many other good generals during the war so the Soviets can easily replace him over the long term. Konev, Rokossovsky, Vatutin, Chuikov and many others are in his peer group. Over time, they will all rise to the top.

It is more problematic when we talk of the 1941 period though as Zhukov was a high senior commander in charge of the critical fronts of Leningrad and Moscow. At those places and at that time, the individual commander is extremely important as a German victory in either place will affect the course of the Barbarossa campaign and thus the war. And I don't think any of the most able Red Army commanders would be in the right place to take over. Much more likely a mediocrity would be in charge, or that Stalin would see fit to micromanage the commanders and botch it up big time.

Zhukov was a great commander, but like everyone else he had his weaknesses.
Things could go pretty bad at Leningrad without Zhukov being around to countermand Voroshilov's destruction orders, but then butterflies would change tons of things leading up to that.
 
This almost feels like how some Japanese believe that if Harsley/Nimitz/whathaveyou were killed, the USN would lose momentum.

No, the surviving officers were still top-notch compared to the short-sighted Germans. You would need an even more comprehensive purge to wipe out Soviet competence.
 

Deleted member 1487

This almost feels like how some Japanese believe that if Harsley/Nimitz/whathaveyou were killed, the USN would lose momentum.

No, the surviving officers were still top-notch compared to the short-sighted Germans. You would need an even more comprehensive purge to wipe out Soviet competence.
Soviet competence in 1941?
 

Insider

Banned
Tukhachevsky was a decent theorist, that doesn't mean he'd be a good commander in practice. His record in Poland in 1920 wasn't the greatest.
But it seems that he build his theories from that defeat. But, indeed who knows.
This almost feels like how some Japanese believe that if Harsley/Nimitz/whathaveyou were killed, the USN would lose momentum.
That is quite another story. Although undeniably interesting one. Had Japanese manage to kill Nimitz or Halsey, or Germans did kill Zhukov... that would create a huge storm in the homefront. Namely the respective counter-espionage agencies would run a witch hunt of first order, because somebody knew the top CO itinerary and somehow gave it to the enemy.
 
The Soviets had many other good generals during the war so the Soviets can easily replace him over the long term. Konev, Rokossovsky, Vatutin, Chuikov and many others are in his peer group. Over time, they will all rise to the top.

It is more problematic when we talk of the 1941 period though as Zhukov was a high senior commander in charge of the critical fronts of Leningrad and Moscow. At those places and at that time, the individual commander is extremely important as a German victory in either place will affect the course of the Barbarossa campaign and thus the war. And I don't think any of the most able Red Army commanders would be in the right place to take over. Much more likely a mediocrity would be in charge, or that Stalin would see fit to micromanage the commanders and botch it up big time.

Zhukov was a great commander, but like everyone else he had his weaknesses.
/Threadwinner

The difference maker is 1941. If the Soviets survive, then id doesn't matter if Zhukov exists...however, in 41 it did matter and it was close enough as is.
 
The Japanese overplayed their hand at Nomonhan, but Zhukov ran an especially tight ship. Without him there I doubt it changes the ultimate endgame, but with a more favourable withdrawal Japan might come out of that fight with a different opinion on Soviet strength in the far East.
 

Towelie

Banned
I generally don't subscribe to the Great Man theory, and there were other Soviet competent commanders, but in the case of Leningrad, I think it would have been lost if not for Zhukov and that it would have been a devastating blow to the Soviets. Voroshilov's orders would have led to the capture of the city and the destruction of the armies of the Leningrad Front along with it. Perhaps another commander could have set things straight in Moscow in 1941, as their advantages at Moscow were decisive in terms of fresh well trained troops going up against exhausted Germans at the end of their logistics train with non functioning vehicles, but in the case of Leningrad, I just don't see it.

If Army Group North had a free hand in 1942 to strike east, Murmansk and possibly Arkhangelsk could have been cut off from Moscow, and the Red Army may have starved as a result, because without American imports, they not only wouldn't have the food to support the war effort , but they would not have been able to motorize and later on, mechanize, the Red Army. Without that motor pool from L-L, there is no Bagration, and the Red Army's offensive abilities are severely limited, and there are still numerous issues with communication and transport, while the Germans do not lose their decisive advantage of maneuver warfare.

The fall of Moscow would, by the way, doom the Russian war effort, if the Germans were able to hold it, not that the capital city's loss would lead to instant surrender but rather because Moscow was such a crucial logistical and strategic rail hub that its loss would cripple the ability of the Russians to get reserves up and down the front and would separate their armies from each other, allowing for the possibility of massive pockets forming once more.
 
Vlasov was supposed to be a decent commander, it seemed like he only defected because he was worried about returning to Moscow to face Stalin after the disaster of 2nd Shock army...that and I think genuinely being upset at Stalin for his incompetence. In 1941 he was one of the principles in saving Moscow IIRC, so was still pretty decent overall.

Tukhachevsky was a decent theorist, that doesn't mean he'd be a good commander in practice. His record in Poland in 1920 wasn't the greatest.


Things could go pretty bad at Leningrad without Zhukov being around to countermand Voroshilov's destruction orders, but then butterflies would change tons of things leading up to that.
Vlasov didn't defected. He tried to get out and was captured. He was turn over only later.
 
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