Given that in this ATL the Peloponnesian wars are in full swing with little meaningful pause, would we not start to see Persia seeking to greater influence events , much as the did in OTL to stop the emerging Athenian power from posing a threat and creating a united Greek front against them? In OTL Sparta was financially supported on and off by the Persian Empire was it not? A more powerful Athens may lead to more direct Persian interference, except this time the funds are wasted as Athens will emerge victorious in the end and declare hegemony unlike in OTL in my opinion ,as it's started earlier and they have more power.
Ηγεμών Αθἠνα and the warring states of ΑΣΙΑ/ A 460 BC Athens hegemony ATL.
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
I couldn't say better ! You sure know to read behind the lines
Its exactly like that! Sparta is really weak at the moment.
Hecatee
Donor
Spent too much time of my youth looking at the politics, demographics and warfighting of the period for my master degreeI couldn't say better ! You sure know to read behind the lines
with a title such as "armies' logistics in the classical greek era" I'm afraid I became somewhat of a nerd on the topic Artaxerxes has bigger problems. After the revolt of Megabyzus, the Persian empire its not the same.
Deleted member 97083
With no real threat from Persia, I think there is no way for Athens to prevent an eventual, mass conflict with its Aegean tributaries attempting to seek independence.
But if Athens wins this conflict, (perhaps through a strategic alliance with Caria or Lydia) then they can crush their upstart vassals and become a centralized state.
But if Athens wins this conflict, (perhaps through a strategic alliance with Caria or Lydia) then they can crush their upstart vassals and become a centralized state.
The war continues
448 BC Events(Part one)
By place:
Athens/Peloponnisos
After driving off the Spartan army that has threatened Corinth , Ephialtes supported by Pericles(Famous after his success in Cyprus) and the Thebans, persuaded the alliance to invade Laconia itself. After few months of preparations a massive allied army of 45000 troops was assembled. Moving south, they crossed the Evrotas river, the natural frontier of Sparta, which no hostile army had breached in memory. The Spartans, unwilling to engage the massive army in battle, simply defended their city, which the Athenians did not attempt to capture. The Athenians and their allies ravaged Laconia, down to the port of Gythium, freeing some of the Lacedaemonian perioeci from their allegiance to Sparta. From there Ephialtes briefly went to Arcadia where he encouraged the Arcadians to join the Delian league, before marching south again, this time to Messenia, a region which the Spartans had conquered some 200 years before. Ephialtes freed the helots of Messenia, and rebuilt their ancient city of Messinia on Mount Ithome. He then issued a call to Messinian exiles all over Greece to return and rebuild their homeland.The loss of Messinia was particularly damaging to the Spartans, since the territory comprised one-third of Sparta's territory and contained half of their helot population. In mere months, Ephialtes had created two new enemy states that opposed Sparta, shaken the foundations of Sparta's economy, and all but devastated Sparta's prestige. This accomplished, Ephialtes decided to led his army back home, victorious. The other general of the Athenian army, Pericles had different plans since he wanted to capture Sparta. So at that point, Ephialtes returned to Athens with 20000 troops and Pericles marched to Sparta with 35000 troops( his army numbers went way up after numerous new recruits from Peloponnesos).
First day of the siege
Arriving outside Sparta in the evening, Pericles attacked immediately. The appearance of the Athenian army before their city caught the Spartans prepared. Despite the Lacedaimonian gerousia being in favour of sending the women to Crete for their protection, this was opposed by Helena , the former queen, who ensured that the Spartan women would remain to assist with the protection of the city. The defenders, since Sparta had no walls, dug a trench around the city to hinder the enemy's advance. When the Athenians approached and their army was preparing its attack, the Spartans assumed defensive positions behind their trench. They were encouraged by the women who had remained and by the sight of Helena, who had placing a halter around her neck, declared that she would commit suicide if the city falls. The besiegers, led by Pericles in person, attempted to storm the Spartan defences but were repulsed as they were unable to secure firm footing in the face of Spartan attacks, rendering the trench impassable.
Seeking to circumvent this obstacle, Pericles sent a force of 2,000 Messinians and some picked Athenians to go around the trench find a weak spot and charge. Eventually the Messinians managed to find a weak spot, giving them the opportunity to burst into the city. Pleistonax, seeing the danger, exploited a series of depressions in the terrain to lead a force of 600 men undetected against the Messinian rear. This manoeuvre evoked panic amongst the Messinians who were compelled to abandon their attempt to enter the city and had to turn around to confront the attack to their rear. After a hard fought battle, the Messinian flanking group was pushed back into the trench with heavy casualties inflicted upon them.
Pericles failed to breach the Lacedaimonian defences and when night fell, he withdrew back to his camp.
By place:
Athens/Peloponnisos
After driving off the Spartan army that has threatened Corinth , Ephialtes supported by Pericles(Famous after his success in Cyprus) and the Thebans, persuaded the alliance to invade Laconia itself. After few months of preparations a massive allied army of 45000 troops was assembled. Moving south, they crossed the Evrotas river, the natural frontier of Sparta, which no hostile army had breached in memory. The Spartans, unwilling to engage the massive army in battle, simply defended their city, which the Athenians did not attempt to capture. The Athenians and their allies ravaged Laconia, down to the port of Gythium, freeing some of the Lacedaemonian perioeci from their allegiance to Sparta. From there Ephialtes briefly went to Arcadia where he encouraged the Arcadians to join the Delian league, before marching south again, this time to Messenia, a region which the Spartans had conquered some 200 years before. Ephialtes freed the helots of Messenia, and rebuilt their ancient city of Messinia on Mount Ithome. He then issued a call to Messinian exiles all over Greece to return and rebuild their homeland.The loss of Messinia was particularly damaging to the Spartans, since the territory comprised one-third of Sparta's territory and contained half of their helot population. In mere months, Ephialtes had created two new enemy states that opposed Sparta, shaken the foundations of Sparta's economy, and all but devastated Sparta's prestige. This accomplished, Ephialtes decided to led his army back home, victorious. The other general of the Athenian army, Pericles had different plans since he wanted to capture Sparta. So at that point, Ephialtes returned to Athens with 20000 troops and Pericles marched to Sparta with 35000 troops( his army numbers went way up after numerous new recruits from Peloponnesos).
First day of the siege
Arriving outside Sparta in the evening, Pericles attacked immediately. The appearance of the Athenian army before their city caught the Spartans prepared. Despite the Lacedaimonian gerousia being in favour of sending the women to Crete for their protection, this was opposed by Helena , the former queen, who ensured that the Spartan women would remain to assist with the protection of the city. The defenders, since Sparta had no walls, dug a trench around the city to hinder the enemy's advance. When the Athenians approached and their army was preparing its attack, the Spartans assumed defensive positions behind their trench. They were encouraged by the women who had remained and by the sight of Helena, who had placing a halter around her neck, declared that she would commit suicide if the city falls. The besiegers, led by Pericles in person, attempted to storm the Spartan defences but were repulsed as they were unable to secure firm footing in the face of Spartan attacks, rendering the trench impassable.
Seeking to circumvent this obstacle, Pericles sent a force of 2,000 Messinians and some picked Athenians to go around the trench find a weak spot and charge. Eventually the Messinians managed to find a weak spot, giving them the opportunity to burst into the city. Pleistonax, seeing the danger, exploited a series of depressions in the terrain to lead a force of 600 men undetected against the Messinian rear. This manoeuvre evoked panic amongst the Messinians who were compelled to abandon their attempt to enter the city and had to turn around to confront the attack to their rear. After a hard fought battle, the Messinian flanking group was pushed back into the trench with heavy casualties inflicted upon them.
Pericles failed to breach the Lacedaimonian defences and when night fell, he withdrew back to his camp.
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Day one could have gone better, but really, Sparta is in the Underworld at this point. Even if somehow, by someway, win or at least are not beaten, they can't recover from this.
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Deleted member 97083
If overconfident the Athenians could exhaust Messinia too much and Sparta could be revived, but otherwise Sparta is destined to be a tributary of Athens. Regardless of what happens, Sparta may have to undergo serious reform of their state whether that is of their own volition or Athenian pressure.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Indeed, I doubt Sparta has much in the way of supplies at this point. If Pericles orders a wall built around Sparta at this point and defends it they will fall. Athenian forces will be able to resupply and Sparta will fall at some point. Sparta's only option will be to make a desperate assault to break the Athenian army.
And even then, they would likely take heavy casualties themselves in doing so, and won't be able to do anything if Sparta is successful in breaking the Athenian army, and if is a failure....
Skallagrim
Banned
If Sparta is to be doomed, I expect them to fight to the death. To the last man, woman and child-- and whoever survives longest gets to set fire to the city, to deny it to the enemy. The attitude of Helena is exemplary here. In a way, the Spartans might prefer such an end to their OTL fate. After their defeat to Epaminondas of Thebes at Leuctra (the first time that a Spartan army lost a land battle at full strength), they declined slowly. Eventually, Sparta was conquered but not destroyed, and ended as a tourist attraction for the Roman elite. What a disgrace! Better to perish in battle, and be remembered for choosing death over servitude.
I'm sure a true Spartan would see it that way.
I'm sure a true Spartan would see it that way.
You know, that would make for a really good myth base off that, and the whole war. Ares try to overthrow Zeus, fails, and Ares orders Sparta to kill itself, and burn the city to ash before Athena, and Zeus can do it.
While the Spartans are the modern personification of ultimate warriors, they are also practical people.
Just as they had refused to destroy Athens because of their service against the Persian Empire, they would most likely admit a defeat after successfully defending their city for a number of attacks in order to gain the upper hand in the negotiations.
Athens has other enemies to focus her attention, enemies that are not so friendly and similar as the Spartans so both sides will sue for peace as soon as possible.
But it needs to be mentioned that Ephialtes has proven to be a strategist in the heart, looking at the bigger picture. And a united coalition with Athenian leadership and Spartan military was bound to be powerful.
If I recall correctly a common enemy of those two cities had remarked as such or something similar, but unfortunately I can't remember the specifics.
Just as they had refused to destroy Athens because of their service against the Persian Empire, they would most likely admit a defeat after successfully defending their city for a number of attacks in order to gain the upper hand in the negotiations.
Athens has other enemies to focus her attention, enemies that are not so friendly and similar as the Spartans so both sides will sue for peace as soon as possible.
But it needs to be mentioned that Ephialtes has proven to be a strategist in the heart, looking at the bigger picture. And a united coalition with Athenian leadership and Spartan military was bound to be powerful.
If I recall correctly a common enemy of those two cities had remarked as such or something similar, but unfortunately I can't remember the specifics.
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The end of Peloponnesian war
448 BC Events(Part two)
By place:
Sparta
Second day of the siege.
In the face of the renewed Athenian offensive, the Spartans held their defences with vigour. Due to the lack of manpower, the Spartan women were active in offering missiles to the defenders as well as taking away the wounded and providing food and drink to those who required it. To nullify the advantage of the Spartans' position, the Athenians began filling up the trench with materials which they were bringing to the front line as well as the bodies of their slain comrades. The efforts of the besiegers were hindered by the Spartans who were aware of the importance of maintaining their defensive obstacles. In response to the Spartan counter attack against the Athenians filling the trench, Pericles decided to personally lead a charge against the Spartan lines. Mounted on his horse, was able to force his away through the trench and into the city with a group of his companions and 200 Thessalian cavalry. The sudden onslaught of Pericles sparked panic amongst the defenders. At this point the Athenians broke through the trench and charge to the city but they were hard-pressed. Every building, house and temple had been turned into a stronghold and every Spartan had taken up a weapon. The Athenians were forced to move slowly, capturing the city house by house, street by street and fighting each Spartan who fought with courage born of despair. Eventually after hours upon hours of house to house fighting, the few remaining Spartans surrendered. The last 6,000 surviving inhabitants, mostly women and children’s were sold into slavery. The city(most of it was already burned) was then leveled under Pericles orders. The land surrounding Sparta was eventually declared public land, and it was shared between Athenian allies and cleruchs.
Edit:
Pericles motives
Pericles as a political animal wanted also to take the spot of Ephialtes in the radical democratic party. So after the success in Cyprus, he decided to stay in Laconia to eliminate the other major threat to Athenian democracy that would make him the undeniable leader of Athens. Did he planed to destroy the city? No, but sometimes shit happens...
Pericles triumph and oration
To capitalise political this victory, Pericles organised a triumph upon his arrival to Athens. He marched through the city in a four-horse chariot, under the gaze of his peers and an applauding crowd, to the assembly. The spoils and captives of his victory led the way, with the Athenian troops following behind. Once he arrived at the assembly, he gave a monumental speech, dedicating his victory to Athens,Democracy,people,allies and gods. Ephialtes although angry with Pericles actions participated in the triumph.
By place:
Sparta
Second day of the siege.
In the face of the renewed Athenian offensive, the Spartans held their defences with vigour. Due to the lack of manpower, the Spartan women were active in offering missiles to the defenders as well as taking away the wounded and providing food and drink to those who required it. To nullify the advantage of the Spartans' position, the Athenians began filling up the trench with materials which they were bringing to the front line as well as the bodies of their slain comrades. The efforts of the besiegers were hindered by the Spartans who were aware of the importance of maintaining their defensive obstacles. In response to the Spartan counter attack against the Athenians filling the trench, Pericles decided to personally lead a charge against the Spartan lines. Mounted on his horse, was able to force his away through the trench and into the city with a group of his companions and 200 Thessalian cavalry. The sudden onslaught of Pericles sparked panic amongst the defenders. At this point the Athenians broke through the trench and charge to the city but they were hard-pressed. Every building, house and temple had been turned into a stronghold and every Spartan had taken up a weapon. The Athenians were forced to move slowly, capturing the city house by house, street by street and fighting each Spartan who fought with courage born of despair. Eventually after hours upon hours of house to house fighting, the few remaining Spartans surrendered. The last 6,000 surviving inhabitants, mostly women and children’s were sold into slavery. The city(most of it was already burned) was then leveled under Pericles orders. The land surrounding Sparta was eventually declared public land, and it was shared between Athenian allies and cleruchs.
Edit:
Pericles motives
Pericles as a political animal wanted also to take the spot of Ephialtes in the radical democratic party. So after the success in Cyprus, he decided to stay in Laconia to eliminate the other major threat to Athenian democracy that would make him the undeniable leader of Athens. Did he planed to destroy the city? No, but sometimes shit happens...
Pericles triumph and oration
To capitalise political this victory, Pericles organised a triumph upon his arrival to Athens. He marched through the city in a four-horse chariot, under the gaze of his peers and an applauding crowd, to the assembly. The spoils and captives of his victory led the way, with the Athenian troops following behind. Once he arrived at the assembly, he gave a monumental speech, dedicating his victory to Athens,Democracy,people,allies and gods. Ephialtes although angry with Pericles actions participated in the triumph.
- Pericles places the Athenian sculptor Phidias in charge of all the artistic aspects of a new reconstruction program. Construction begins on the temple of Hephaestus, while the Athenian Senate commissions Callicrates to construct a temple to Athena Nike(victory) on the Acropolis .
- Massalia and the Greek polis in South France hard pressed by the Carthaginians ask help from the Italiote league.
- Meagabyzus kills the former ally Kilikian king and absorbs Kilikia in his realm
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Wow. Sparta destroyed. In an urban battle no less.
I wonder what will emerge in its place. I'm unsure what cultural differences there were between Helots, Lacedaemons and Athenians (besides the obvious party of Sparta). I wonder if Sparta might become the home of the more militant aspects of the League. I wonder if we'll see the rise of a new Peloponnesesian Hegemon - Elis perhaps? - Argos? Messina would be poetic - with Sparta as part of their history, and the overwhelming force Athens brought to end Sparta, I could see them advocating a large, well-drilled standing army. Perhaps a future major player in the League?
I wonder what will emerge in its place. I'm unsure what cultural differences there were between Helots, Lacedaemons and Athenians (besides the obvious party of Sparta). I wonder if Sparta might become the home of the more militant aspects of the League. I wonder if we'll see the rise of a new Peloponnesesian Hegemon - Elis perhaps? - Argos? Messina would be poetic - with Sparta as part of their history, and the overwhelming force Athens brought to end Sparta, I could see them advocating a large, well-drilled standing army. Perhaps a future major player in the League?