Nice idea the alceonid curse!
I am afraid so.. But i am planning to make a Sparta ATL in the future
I think you are going to like the next update
Coming with the next update! ( i was waiting for the war to finish)
Ηγεμών Αθἠνα and the warring states of ΑΣΙΑ/ A 460 BC Athens hegemony ATL.
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
I am afraid so.. But i am planning to make a Sparta ATL in the future
I think you are going to like the next update
Coming with the next update! ( i was waiting for the war to finish)
Firstly Sparta was destroyed way too easy in this timeline. Granted it wasn't as powerful as in cannon at this point, but still it was strong enough to resist against a greater force.
Secondly there were more Spartans. Way more. In just the earthquake of 464 BC 20,000 people died. Historians estimate that at its peak there were 20,000 – 35,000 free residents and 15,000-20,000 helots and perioikous. So we can assume that about 20,000-30,000 people survived. And keep in mind, the earthquake happened 16 years before the destruction of the city. Meaning that they had plenty of time to grow their population and even train it.
Thirdly I am not completely certain if you have mentioned it already, but following the removal of the Athenian army from the siege of Ithome, the Spartans allowed the perioikoi to join the hoplite part of the army. That alone could easily double their fighting force against the Athenian troops in the siege of Sparta.
Fourthly, during the first Peloponnesian War there was only one significant battle between Athens and Sparta. The Battle of Tanagra in 457 BC. From what I gather this one didn't happen in this ATL but it is worth mentioning that facing a force of 14,000 Athenians, the Spartans won having only 11,500. Those 14,000 were their whole army according to Thucydides with 1,000 men from Argos as well. Considering the more battles Athenians have engaged in this timeline it is most likely that this number has been significantly reduced, and there are more mercenaries than Athenians. While the Spartans being more isolationist have more. Moreover, in the battle of Tanagra the Athenians controlled the upper ground as we could say. All in all, against higher numbers, against the field advantage the Spartans won.
Additionally, the main military army and navy were already engaged too far from the areas so it seems unlikely that with only the support of lesser cities and mercenaries they would be able to eliminate Sparta.
All in all, it is a political nightmare to destroy such an important city. They were the ones who held the ground against the Persians. And while Athens is certainly strong, that doesn't translate to all powerful, they still need the alliance of other cities and if their allies saw what they did to former allies and even brothers in arms (from the Persian Wars) then they would be skeptic to say the least, in allowing Athens to expand even more.
Now I am not completely certain whether Pericles had the full support of the Athenian government, but they would never in any way commit to such an atrocity. Remember there was a common idea that all Greeks were civilized and the rest were barbarians (even before they were united due to their achievements against stronger forces). Razing such an integral part of the society was against the interests of Athens. If i recall correctly there have barely been 2-3 razed cities from one part of the ancient Greece to another, and it is more along the lines of utter betrayal (for example a city allied to Sparta sells them to Athens but then loses and is being razed).
Secondly there were more Spartans. Way more. In just the earthquake of 464 BC 20,000 people died. Historians estimate that at its peak there were 20,000 – 35,000 free residents and 15,000-20,000 helots and perioikous. So we can assume that about 20,000-30,000 people survived. And keep in mind, the earthquake happened 16 years before the destruction of the city. Meaning that they had plenty of time to grow their population and even train it.
Thirdly I am not completely certain if you have mentioned it already, but following the removal of the Athenian army from the siege of Ithome, the Spartans allowed the perioikoi to join the hoplite part of the army. That alone could easily double their fighting force against the Athenian troops in the siege of Sparta.
Fourthly, during the first Peloponnesian War there was only one significant battle between Athens and Sparta. The Battle of Tanagra in 457 BC. From what I gather this one didn't happen in this ATL but it is worth mentioning that facing a force of 14,000 Athenians, the Spartans won having only 11,500. Those 14,000 were their whole army according to Thucydides with 1,000 men from Argos as well. Considering the more battles Athenians have engaged in this timeline it is most likely that this number has been significantly reduced, and there are more mercenaries than Athenians. While the Spartans being more isolationist have more. Moreover, in the battle of Tanagra the Athenians controlled the upper ground as we could say. All in all, against higher numbers, against the field advantage the Spartans won.
Additionally, the main military army and navy were already engaged too far from the areas so it seems unlikely that with only the support of lesser cities and mercenaries they would be able to eliminate Sparta.
All in all, it is a political nightmare to destroy such an important city. They were the ones who held the ground against the Persians. And while Athens is certainly strong, that doesn't translate to all powerful, they still need the alliance of other cities and if their allies saw what they did to former allies and even brothers in arms (from the Persian Wars) then they would be skeptic to say the least, in allowing Athens to expand even more.
Now I am not completely certain whether Pericles had the full support of the Athenian government, but they would never in any way commit to such an atrocity. Remember there was a common idea that all Greeks were civilized and the rest were barbarians (even before they were united due to their achievements against stronger forces). Razing such an integral part of the society was against the interests of Athens. If i recall correctly there have barely been 2-3 razed cities from one part of the ancient Greece to another, and it is more along the lines of utter betrayal (for example a city allied to Sparta sells them to Athens but then loses and is being razed).
Sparta completely destroyed and it's survivors sold into slavery in a battle lasting only 2 days?? because 200 cavalry got through the front line of warriors and into the city?
Causing "panic" amongst all the Spartan defenders?
Sorry Sersor but I don't buy it.
The Spartans were warriors before anything else, even in the line was sundered at one point in the city I think the other Spartanss would regroup and fall back into the city before taking up new defensive formations,sparking more of a prolonged fight street to street that I don't think could be accomplished within a day and without severe Athenian losses.
Plus faced with the annihilation you would get the lower classes and helots fighting for their homes (and I'd be interested in what combatant numbers you have used for this battle)
However ,although rushed it seems, I do like the fact Sparta has been completely removed as much as I disagree with how it was done, as that will affect this ATL's dynamics hugely from here on in.
Causing "panic" amongst all the Spartan defenders?
Sorry Sersor but I don't buy it.
The Spartans were warriors before anything else, even in the line was sundered at one point in the city I think the other Spartanss would regroup and fall back into the city before taking up new defensive formations,sparking more of a prolonged fight street to street that I don't think could be accomplished within a day and without severe Athenian losses.
Plus faced with the annihilation you would get the lower classes and helots fighting for their homes (and I'd be interested in what combatant numbers you have used for this battle)
However ,although rushed it seems, I do like the fact Sparta has been completely removed as much as I disagree with how it was done, as that will affect this ATL's dynamics hugely from here on in.
Sorry my friend but i strongly disagree. First of all when i decided to make this Athenian hegemony ATL i searched the dates and the history of the era to find the best date to start this ATL, with Athens really strong and Sparta weak. So the dates after the earthquake of Sparta and before the disastrous Egyptian expedition of Athens was a perfect for stronger Athens ATL.
Sparta population peak was around 500 BC and from then their numbers start to decline(Their laws meant that Sparta could not readily replace citizens lost in battle or otherwise and eventually proved near fatal to the continuance of the state as the number of citizens became greatly outnumbered )
The Spartan OTL crisis, that i took advantage in this ATL, began in 465 B.C. with a tremendous earthquake in Laconia, the territory of the Spartans in the Peloponnese. It killed so many Spartans(maybe even 20000 as you said, although most modern scholars don’t agree with this numbers) that the helots in Messinia and even in Laconia instigated a massive revolt. By 462 B.C. the revolt had become so serious that the Spartans, swallowing their considerable pride, appealed even to Athens among for military help, despite the chill that had fallen over relations between Athens and Sparta since the days of their cooperation against the Persians. All this shows major issues in the Spartan manpool. Lastly about the 16 years, its not even a full generation(20 years) to fill up their ranks.
When this battle happen in OTL the Athenians had also 200 triremes in Cyprus/Egypt (40000 men) where in my timeline this expedition was cancelled… Also in the battle(Tanagra) the Spartans won the battle, but they lose many men and they were unable to follow up on their victory(We can also note that the Spartan where only 1500 in this battle). All this are again indication of small numbers.
In my timeline Athens had a man pool of more than 60000 citizens to draw troops, plus extra allies in the likes of Corinth, Boeotian league and most of Achaian towns. Now If you combine all that with Thessaly,Argos and the Delian league members…
Sparta on the other side had Elis/Eleans and Arcadia(who they didn’t really like the Spartans, at least a big percentage of them).
Then we have the battles of this timeline:
460 BC
Argos rises against Sparta. Athens supports Argos and sends 2000 troops. The small force that is sent by Sparta(due the helot revolt/siege of Ithome) to quell the uprising in Argos was defeated by a joint Athenian and Argos force at Oenoe.
Small losses for each side
458 BC
The two armies met near Megara. Although the Athenians outnumbered Spartans 2 to 1, both sides suffered heavy losses(more than 4000 for each side) and the battle ended in a stalemate. After the battle, the Spartans, marched home across the isthmus.The Athenians rebounded well after the battle, by sending an army under Myronides to siege Corinth.
Heavy losses for both sides with Sparta way harder to replace them.
458 BC
in another small battle the Athenians attacked the chief Spartan port of Gytheion and burnt the dockyards.
Small losses for each side
449 BC
The Spartan alliance held the field and the Athenian alliance retreat in order on a large near by hill. Both sides suffered heavy losses. More than 7000 Spartans/allies and 9000 Athenians/allies killed in the battle. After a while the Spartans decided to lift the siege and return to Sparta.
Again heavy losses for both sides with Sparta way harder to replace them.
* Athenian alliance: 27000(Argos 5000, Thessaly 5000 ,Thebes/Boeotians 6000 Athenians 11000). Spartan alliance 19000(4000 Spartans, 8000 Arcadians, 7000 Eleans)
Now when Athens invaded Peloponnesos with their massive army, the Spartans unwilling to engage the massive army in battle, simply defended their city. Then the Athenians liberated some of the Lacedaemonian perioeci from their allegiance to Sparta.
So in my ATL during the siege, Sparta didn’t have more than 30000-35000 people(including women,old people and children)
Yes i agree the destruction of Sparta was an atrocity. But this started first of all from the Spartans themselves who not willing to surrender, fought from door to door and burn most of the town by themselves. Also lets not forget that the radical democrats in Athens, all this years have proclaimed Sparta as their worst enemy, an enemy of democracy. So in the Athenian troops were some really fanatic "democrats". Now combine that with the Messinian troops in the Athenian army who where seeking revenge, and the furious resistance of the Spartan within the city. Visualising this scene i can see Pericles giving the order for the final blow.
Pericles as a political animal wanted also to take the spot of Ephialtes in the radical democratic party. So after the success in Cyprus, he decided to stay in Laconia to eliminate the other major threat to Athenian democracy that would make him the undeniable leader of Athens. Did he planed to destroy the city? No, but sometimes shit happens...
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I agree, but I wonder if a new city will be built there.Good riddance, they were over-rated anyway
Sparta had just a fast built trench and was surrounded with more than 35000 troops. So when 200+ Elite cavalry broke through and charge in a weak point i dont see why a cavalry charge can't panic and root troops. Remember not all the defenders in Sparta was like Leonidas and the 300 in Thermopyles. There where a lot of young 15- 16 years old boys and women also.
Who said the Athenians didn't suffer loses? OFC and suffer heavy losses that was one of the reasons that they complete destroyed the place.
Probably, but with Athenian settlers. I wonder if they will push the humiliation to the point of calling the new city Periclesios.
I can't and won't disagree with you simply because this is your timeline and well we don't have as much information about this period in OTL as we would have liked, not to mention that you have created an explicit timeline backing that outcome. Although now that you mention that fact about Pericles that he wanted the spot of Ephialtes I have to admit that I simply forgot of his ambitions, and can't help but wonder where will the Athenians focus now after the defeat of their enemy. Could a political war be in order?
Deleted member 97083
Helots would probably be assimilated by the Messinians, fellow helots now with a city-state under their control.
A new era
447 BC Events (Part one)
A new era. Ephialtes reforms
The council of Athens
With the Peloponnesian war over and Athens now the Hegemon of Greece, Ephialtes organised a new council of all the members of the Delian league in Athens to celebrate the end of the war. During the council Ephialtis proposed a new federation to be created, according to his “Democratic vision”. This caught Pericles by surprise and forced him to suport Ephialtes plan(During the last years Ephialtes methodically worked thru diplomacy,brides and assassinations to establish democratic governments, controlled by him, to several allied cities of the Delian league. With Pericles becoming more and more popular he decided to proceed with his plan faster before he lose control of Athens). With Athens the undisputed force in Greece and Sparta burned to the ground*, all members “agreed” to Ephialtes plan.
* The destruction of Sparta in the end, was an unexpected gift to Ephialtes efforts/strategic goal to pass the deal for the new formation of the league. All members where afraid the fate of Sparta.
The Athenian republic/federal league
Ephialtes, same as Cleisthenes before him, fixed even more the boundaries of the polis/state as a political rather than a geographical entity by formally identifying the free inhabitants of the new league at that time, as Athenian/Hellenes citizens. He did this by instituting 8 new nomes(based on Attica tribes model): Karia,Ionia,Hellespont,Thrace,Cyclades,Delphi,Achaia and Messinia each made up of about three trytties, each consisting of several demes.The new “League” was to be governed by 2 Hegemons, the synedrion (council) and the Dikastai(judges).
All nomes would had now their own regional capital city with a general assembly and a Boule( basically a copy of the Athenian/Attica democratic system) from were the 2 local archons will be elected to participate in the synedrion together with the 2 archons of Athens. The synedrion then would elect two Hegemon to lead the league for a year. According to Ephialtes plan, Athens as the major power of the league must always have at least one hegemony seat.The new official meeting place where the synedrion/congress would be held was Athens. The league treasury of more than 7000 talents was also moved from Delos to Athens. Ephialtes and Agesilaos of Chios(puppet of Ephialtes) were the first two Hegemons.
The league instituted also the first professional standing army* in Greece, with soldiers and cavalrymen paid from the treasury for their service year-round. From a total of 10000 troops, 5000 troops were station in Attica and 1000 in Amphipolis(plus 4000 cleruchs),1000 in Byzantium(plus 1000 cleruchs),1000 in Messinia,1000 in Chios and 1000 in Rhodes**
*This army was vital for Ephialtes plans to control the league/Athens and crush any possibly rebellion/enemy. Most of the troops where Athenians and/or supporters of the radical democracy/Ephialtes.
* *the cities of Rhodes together with cleruchs from Athens built the city of Rhodes , a new capital on the northern end of the island.
The League maintained the standing army from all member states in approximate proportion to their size. A tribute was also raised by all the members in approximate proportion to their size.
Every male citizen on reaching the age of 18 was now to be registered in his deme. It was this registration which confirmed his citizenship.
Finally decrees of the league were issued in Corinth, Delphi, Pynda, Byzantion, Ephesos, Thebes, Naxos, Rhodes, Chios, Amphipolis, Messinia and Pyndos.
Additional infos about the major Athenian Strongholds:
Thasos 200 garrison,1000 cleruchs
Amphipolis 4000 cleruchs( besides standing army)
Daskyleion 200 garrison/Hellespont
Byzantium 1000 cleruchs( besides standing army)
Megalopolis 100 garrison,2000 cleruchs /Black sea
Cotinth 300 garrison
Thebes 500 garrison
A new era. Ephialtes reforms
The council of Athens
With the Peloponnesian war over and Athens now the Hegemon of Greece, Ephialtes organised a new council of all the members of the Delian league in Athens to celebrate the end of the war. During the council Ephialtis proposed a new federation to be created, according to his “Democratic vision”. This caught Pericles by surprise and forced him to suport Ephialtes plan(During the last years Ephialtes methodically worked thru diplomacy,brides and assassinations to establish democratic governments, controlled by him, to several allied cities of the Delian league. With Pericles becoming more and more popular he decided to proceed with his plan faster before he lose control of Athens). With Athens the undisputed force in Greece and Sparta burned to the ground*, all members “agreed” to Ephialtes plan.
* The destruction of Sparta in the end, was an unexpected gift to Ephialtes efforts/strategic goal to pass the deal for the new formation of the league. All members where afraid the fate of Sparta.
The Athenian republic/federal league
Ephialtes, same as Cleisthenes before him, fixed even more the boundaries of the polis/state as a political rather than a geographical entity by formally identifying the free inhabitants of the new league at that time, as Athenian/Hellenes citizens. He did this by instituting 8 new nomes(based on Attica tribes model): Karia,Ionia,Hellespont,Thrace,Cyclades,Delphi,Achaia and Messinia each made up of about three trytties, each consisting of several demes.The new “League” was to be governed by 2 Hegemons, the synedrion (council) and the Dikastai(judges).
All nomes would had now their own regional capital city with a general assembly and a Boule( basically a copy of the Athenian/Attica democratic system) from were the 2 local archons will be elected to participate in the synedrion together with the 2 archons of Athens. The synedrion then would elect two Hegemon to lead the league for a year. According to Ephialtes plan, Athens as the major power of the league must always have at least one hegemony seat.The new official meeting place where the synedrion/congress would be held was Athens. The league treasury of more than 7000 talents was also moved from Delos to Athens. Ephialtes and Agesilaos of Chios(puppet of Ephialtes) were the first two Hegemons.
The league instituted also the first professional standing army* in Greece, with soldiers and cavalrymen paid from the treasury for their service year-round. From a total of 10000 troops, 5000 troops were station in Attica and 1000 in Amphipolis(plus 4000 cleruchs),1000 in Byzantium(plus 1000 cleruchs),1000 in Messinia,1000 in Chios and 1000 in Rhodes**
*This army was vital for Ephialtes plans to control the league/Athens and crush any possibly rebellion/enemy. Most of the troops where Athenians and/or supporters of the radical democracy/Ephialtes.
* *the cities of Rhodes together with cleruchs from Athens built the city of Rhodes , a new capital on the northern end of the island.
The League maintained the standing army from all member states in approximate proportion to their size. A tribute was also raised by all the members in approximate proportion to their size.
Every male citizen on reaching the age of 18 was now to be registered in his deme. It was this registration which confirmed his citizenship.
Finally decrees of the league were issued in Corinth, Delphi, Pynda, Byzantion, Ephesos, Thebes, Naxos, Rhodes, Chios, Amphipolis, Messinia and Pyndos.
Additional infos about the major Athenian Strongholds:
Thasos 200 garrison,1000 cleruchs
Amphipolis 4000 cleruchs( besides standing army)
Daskyleion 200 garrison/Hellespont
Byzantium 1000 cleruchs( besides standing army)
Megalopolis 100 garrison,2000 cleruchs /Black sea
Cotinth 300 garrison
Thebes 500 garrison
- Pericles commissions the architects Kallikrates and Iktinos to design a larger temple for the Parthenon and the construction begins on rebuilding the great temple of Athena (the Parthenon) on the Acropolis at Athens soon afterwards.
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Truly, the Gods of Olympus gives their sweet blessings onto the Great Athenian Republic, and all it's members.
Deleted member 97083
The creation of a professional standing army almost guarantees the Athenian State's longevity. At the same time, the amount of tribute that must require will almost certainly lead to rebellion later on. A rebellion in vain against ever powerful Athens, but a rebellion nonetheless.
Come to think of it, it wouldn't really be a Republic would it... isn't Republic derived from Latin res publica? Athenian Polity or Athenian State, perhaps?
Come to think of it, it wouldn't really be a Republic would it... isn't Republic derived from Latin res publica? Athenian Polity or Athenian State, perhaps?
I know Athens is now supreme, but historically Thebes doesn't like foreign Garrisons, is there a potential for unrest developing or is everyone now too cowed by Sparta's fate?
The amount of resources and man power to maintain this year round I can see causing problems with the smaller states in the league, especially as standing armies weren't the norm, would they question the necessity for so many to be tied down year round?
On a different note, I get it's all pro-democracy etc. but would Athens,now being unquestionably supreme power in Greece, immediately be so generous with the power sharing? Especially with the other states afraid of what happened to Sparta
Yes the standing army of Ephialtes can almost guarantee the Athenian state longevity. About the salaries of the troops, the amount needed is easily within the capabilities of Athens.
Some stats analysis :
Laurion mines 1000 talents (20000 slaves working)[1]
Amphipolis/chrysoupoli(mt Pangaion) mines 1000 gold and silver talents(24000 slaves working)[2]
Thasos mines 250 gold talents (5000 slaves working) [3]
Tributes 660(460 indirect by delian league members and 200 direct to Athens) talents [4]
Athens from the mines made minimum 4000-5000 talents per year(Gold to silver ratio around: 1/10)
1 talent(silver) was equivalent to 6,000 drachmas. So 10000 troops(with a salary of 1 drachma per day)needed around 2 talents per day x 365 days per year, thats a total of 700 talents per year. Pretty doable from the Athenian republic.
But never the less we can expect rebellions for sure.
Good idea. Ill find a Greek title
Thebes doesn't like foreign garrisons but the example of Sparta is a scary one. Besides that Thebes is controlled by the local Democratic party that is in close relations with Ephialtes network.
The amount of resources as ill ready posted its not really a problem for Athens. But i can see for allies to question the necessity of this.
Well there is not really a power sharing... Athens/Ephialtes controls almost complete the board with his followers in many allied cities, and he made this move to strength his control against Pericles also. For those allies not under his control there is always the example of Sparta...
Something really important here is that Ephialtes is making an army of followers that are not just Athenians...
Hecatee
Donor
According to Xenophon Athens could raise around 1000 talents a year from the Delos alliance, its taxes and its exceptionnal revenues.
In the fourth century, which is poorer than the fifth, we see in the sources, both litterary and epigraphic, that the states revenue are similar (according among others to the pseudo-Demosthenes. We also know that Athenians finance officials raised up to 1575 talents a year during the period 338-326. According to Van Wees (Greek Warfare : Myth and realities, 2004, p. 236) about 10% of this amount came from taxes on the citizens (he speaks of some 170 talents).
A soldier at the time was being paid 1 drachma a day (data known from, among other, Thucidydes, especially about the siege of Potidea, and Xenophon), which means that the 30 000 men of the Sicilian expedition were paid around 5 talents a day, 130kg of silver, around a ton a week.
Modern calculation also shows that 5000 talents is enough money for 25 month of operations for a fleet of 180 triremes , which was the size of Athens' fleet at the start of the 2nd peloponesian war according to Thucidydes (so in practice around 3 to 4 years of operation as sailing was strongly curtailled during winter).
Now if we look at what Sersor wrote, we have around 10 000 men in a standing army : that's around 600 talents a year, to which we have to add a fleet of around 200 ships probably, taken from a much larger tax base.
Ship operations require us to look at both the cost of building, maintaining and operating the ships. A new built ship cost around 1 talent, and Athens seems to have built around 10 a year on a 20 year lifecycle, meaning it always had close to 200 ships in operation. That's 20 talents a year for new ships. But not everything lasted 20 years : cords, sails, etc. lasted much less. A modern sail may last as little as 5 years, and there is no reason to think it was not the case at the time. Epigraphy shows that a lot came from captured ennemy ships, and we also have indication coming from judiciary procedures that overall you had around 1 talent of equipement per ship. If we consider that 1/5th of the equipement was reniewed every year (5 year lifecycle) then we have to add around 40 talents/year for a 200 ships maintenance.
So we have a fixed yearly cost of some 700 talents for infrastructure, equipement, maintenance and standing land force, something Athens alone could easily bear. If we count a budget of around 1000 talents a year for full season full fleet operation, we are only 700 talents above athenian revenues but with contributions from cities such as Corinth or Thebes. And we can expect that the fleet did not always operate full force full season, so that budget would usually not be used and money would be stored for later operations
We know that Corinth could raise at least 60 new built ships after her initial defeat at Actium early in the second peloponesian war, a maximum effort in which they invested at least some 120 talents in a year (we don't know if the 90 ships they engaged after this massive effort were all new built or if they had survivors of the 30 ships engaged at Actium). So their contribution to Sersor's federation could easily be around 20 to 50 talents a year for just one city.
Well Plato's text is often translated as "the republic"
About the standing army, note that 5000 talents is enough money for 25 month of operations for a fleet of 180 triremes (so around 3 to 4 years of operation as sailing operations were strongly curtailled during winter), which was the size of Athens' fleet at the start of the 2nd peloponesian war according to Thucidydes. According to Xenophon Athens could raise around 1000 talents a year from the Delos alliance, its taxes and its exceptionnal revenues. In the fourth century, which is poorer than the fifth, but the states revenue are similar according to the pseudo-Demosthenes. We also know that Athenians finance officials raised up to 1575 talents a year during the period 338-326. According to Van Wees (Greek Warfare : Myth and realities, 2004, p. 236) about 10% of this amount came from taxes on the citizens (he speaks of some 170 talents). A soldier at the time was being paid 1 drachma a day, which means that the 30 000 men of the Sicilian expedition were paid around 5 talents a day, 130kg of silver, around a ton a week.
Now if we look at what Sersor wrote, we have around 10 000 men in a standing army : that's around 600 talents a year,
Nice analysis and facts as always mr @Hecatee ! Yes with all this cities under her leadership Athens would make from tribute at least 1000+ talents per year*. So together with the mines we are talking for 5000-6000 talents per year!with military expenses less 800 (standing army ship maintance)
*The first assessment for Delian League tribute(with way less members than current ATL)amounted to 460 talents, according to Thuc. 1.96.2
Well Plato's text is often translated as "the republic"
I didn't know that
I guess republic it is !