Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Glen

Moderator
While I understand that TTL is much more populated than OTL, thanks to earlier advances in medicine.

Well, somewhat more populated at least.

I would think that the Green Revolution would also happen much sooner here (it should be well underway by the 1930s), and the population problem is soon to be mitigated.

Well, given that it didn't start IOTL until the 1950s, what makes you think it would have happened much sooner ITTL? As of the early 1930s, it has not happened ITTL - I am curious however to hear your thoughts on why it might happen earlier ITTL than IOTL.

Whatever happens I am very curious to see where you take it. Keep up the good work.

Thank you, your patronage is much appreciated!
 

Glen

Moderator
I enjoy that you haven't painted Malthusians as bad or good guys, most people would do that with alternate ideologies.

Thank you, I am glad to hear that you find it so.

I can see myself being happy if Malthusian ideas win out everywhere or if they ultimately failed.

Well stay tuned, and see how it goes!;)
 
Well, given that it didn't start IOTL until the 1950s, what makes you think it would have happened much sooner ITTL? As of the early 1930s, it has not happened ITTL - I am curious however to hear your thoughts on why it might happen earlier ITTL than IOTL.

My thoughts were these:

Overpopulation is a very big problem in TTL and thus there should be a bigger push from governments and private institutions to solve it. In OTL where we "broke" the Malthusian cycle by accident, the green revolution happened just as overpopulation was starting to become an issue. In TTL the break will likely happen by design. The establishment of the the International Malthusian Conference shows how this push to create this break is already happening. Secondly, you have a higher population and thus more brains to focus on the matter. Malthusian ideas and the understating of the malthusian cycles, are also much wider spread in TTL than in OTL.

In summary TTL has more people with better understanding of the problem working to find a solution than OTL did. In OTL changes began to occur in the 1930s though as you mention, the revolution didn't quite get underway till the 1950s. A 15-20 year head-start for TTL doesn't seem that outrageous.

Also I am very curious to see if you plan developing the negative social side effects of overpopulation. So far most social changes seem pretty progressive in TTL, but social darwinism and entrenched classism should be marked consequences.
 

Glen

Moderator
My thoughts were these:

Overpopulation is a very big problem in TTL and thus there should be a bigger push from governments and private institutions to solve it.

Fair point. Of course, one might argue that the Malthusian Clubs and later Governments push towards population control is the solution they are pushing...

In OTL where we "broke" the Malthusian cycle by accident, the green revolution happened just as overpopulation was starting to become an issue. In TTL the break will likely happen by design. The establishment of the the International Malthusian Conference shows how this push to create this break is already happening. Secondly, you have a higher population and thus more brains to focus on the matter. Malthusian ideas and the understating of the malthusian cycles, are also much wider spread in TTL than in OTL.

In summary TTL has more people with better understanding of the problem working to find a solution than OTL did. In OTL changes began to occur in the 1930s

Which changes are you referencing?

though as you mention, the revolution didn't quite get underway till the 1950s. A 15-20 year head-start for TTL doesn't seem that outrageous.

Maybe, assuming people don't latch on to other things first (like population control).

Also I am very curious to see if you plan developing the negative social side effects of overpopulation. So far most social changes seem pretty progressive in TTL, but social darwinism and entrenched classism should be marked consequences.

Time will tell...
 
Fair point. Of course, one might argue that the Malthusian Clubs and later Governments push towards population control is the solution they are pushing...



Which changes are you referencing?



Maybe, assuming people don't latch on to other things first (like population control).



Time will tell...

So far Malthusianism seems like a pretty empty ideology besides population, how is it gonna stay relevant once people stop caring about population growth (which should fade sooner than later)?
 

Glen

Moderator
So far Malthusianism seems like a pretty empty ideology besides population, how is it gonna stay relevant once people stop caring about population growth (which should fade sooner than later)?

Good question - of course, when has that ever stopped a political movement?;)
 
Are these really larger? Remember there is a bit of distortion as you go North on a map...

Very much so - to again use the Dakotas for an example, the 17th and 19th largest states. In comparison, Alberta is bigger than OTL California, and is barely smaller than Texas.
 

Glen

Moderator
Very much so - to again use the Dakotas for an example, the 17th and 19th largest states. In comparison, Alberta is bigger than OTL California, and is barely smaller than Texas.

I see - well, I do think there is a need to make them bigger as they become more sparse in population in order to be of a size worthy of statehood.
 

Glen

Moderator
The Liberal Party in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was born from the roots of the Whig Party and the Radicals and took center stage during the Reform Revolution. It vied with the Conservative Party (the Tories, ironically "tory" derived from the Irish term for outlaw, Tóraidhe) throughout the 19th and early 20th century for leadership of the British Empire.

Thomas Malthus was an important early influence on Liberalism, but his contributions fell out of favor relatively rapidly in the 19th century. It was not until the dawn of the 20th century that he was rediscovered and some of the earliest of the Malthusian Clubs were founded in the UK and the Malthusians became a powerful influence in the Liberal Party of the United Kingdom, though a majority of the Liberal Party was not as pessimistic about the threat of global overpopulation - many of them relied on the continued promise of the British Dominions such as Southern America and the Australias as options for settlement of excess population.

The Liberal Party was in power at the onset of the Subcontinental Crisis, which threatened to tear in twain between its Majority and Malthusian branches. They government's paralysis led to the stalemate between the British Empire and the breakaway Malthusian-led United Nationalities of India.

That paralysis was shattered by the Saint Petersburg Slaughter. The new King-Emperor, Alexander II, accepted the resignation of the Prime Minister after the no confidence vote in Parliament, and invited the leader of the Conservatives, Edward Thomas, to form a government. The Malthusian leadership in Parliament found themselves ostracized as the new PM formed a national unity government with Conservatives and other several Liberals who had been more outspoken critics of both the Malthusians and their own leadership's kowtowing to their demands.

Prime Minister Thomas' government declared war on the Thuggies AND the United Nationalities of India within 24 hours of its formation.

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Well, war it is...

I believe you mentioned in an earlier update that the USA was committed to helping Britain in case of a war like this, and I think the DSA would be pretty inclined to help. I would also think that a few other nations who suffered casualties in the terrorist attack would also join the UK. Are there many other Malthusian nations likely to help out India?

In any case this will be interesting to see... I hope it doesn't get out of hand, both during and after war. For example, what will this mean for the Indian population of the USA, DSA, and other countries with significant immigration? Hopefully they won't go the way of the WWII Japanese-Americans. I know the Indian-Americans, both DS and US, have had some civil rights victories; that should help.

Good job,Glen.
 

Glen

Moderator
Well, war it is...

I believe you mentioned in an earlier update that the USA was committed to helping Britain in case of a war like this,

In what way? The USA has no entangling alliances...Washington would be proud!;)

and I think the DSA would be pretty inclined to help.

Oh the Southrons are incensed and will definitely leap to defend the honor or the Crown and the Mother Country! Hmmm...will have to remember to get the post about that up...

I would also think that a few other nations who suffered casualties in the terrorist attack

Yes, several did.

would also join the UK. Are there many other Malthusian nations likely to help out India?

Time will tell....

In any case this will be interesting to see... I hope it doesn't get out of hand, both during and after war.

A very good question.

For example, what will this mean for the Indian population of the USA,

Not very large, and there's work afoot to protect them.

DSA, and other countries with significant immigration?

A bit harder time.

Hopefully they won't go the way of the WWII Japanese-Americans. I know the Indian-Americans, both DS and US, have had some civil rights victories; that should help.

Indeed it should.

Good job,Glen.

Thank you, thank you very much.:D
 
What is the population of the USA and DSA right now? I think the DSA's population would be only about 15-20 million people due to immigration factors (otl immigration records to Canada show that the not many people really went there, and I'd expect the same for the dsa except with more natural population growth), but the different territory of the USA is a major wildcard.
 
What is the population of the USA and DSA right now? I think the DSA's population would be only about 15-20 million people due to immigration factors (otl immigration records to Canada show that the not many people really went there, and I'd expect the same for the dsa except with more natural population growth), but the different territory of the USA is a major wildcard.

No, there are a lot more Anglos and other protestant groups that immigrated to the Americas, not to mention Indian and Asian labourers. DSA is perhaps the richest land in all of the Empire, and somewhat, it industrialized and developed. The people will really go for it for jobs business.

I round it at 34-37 million.
 

Glen

Moderator
What is the population of the USA and DSA right now? I think the DSA's population would be only about 15-20 million people due to immigration factors (otl immigration records to Canada show that the not many people really went there, and I'd expect the same for the dsa except with more natural population growth), but the different territory of the USA is a major wildcard.

The population of the USA and the DSA are actually higher than their OTL equivalent geographical areas at this point in time due to the effect being felt globally of the earlier institution of health and sanitation changes, germ theory, etc., but also in the case of the DSA due to better economics than the OTL South attracting more migration from the Briitsh Empire as well as having no flight to the north by the black population, and the importation of Indians as indentured servants. The USA has been very peaceful and open to immigration and that has led to increased influx of people from throughout the world looking for a better life, and of course there was the aforementioned boom in population that everyone has had in the civilized world. The DSA area has more population compared to its OTL equivalent than the USA to its OTL equivalent, but the USA has the larger population overall compared to the DSA.

I hope that answers your question.
 

Glen

Moderator
No, there are a lot more Anglos and other protestant groups that immigrated to the Americas, not to mention Indian and Asian labourers. DSA is perhaps the richest land in all of the Empire, and somewhat, it industrialized and developed. The people will really go for it for jobs business.

I round it at 34-37 million.

The DSA is in fact a relatively rich land in the British Empire - it's developed more than industrialized, if you catch my meaning.

I'd have to do some calculations to come up with the population figures for the DSA at this point in the timeline....
 
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