WI: Poland Joins Operation Barbarossa

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Poland Joins Operation Barbarossa

"The Nazi foreign minister had lost his patience with the Poles. “You are stubborn on these maritime questions,” he told Polish diplomats in January 1939. “The Black Sea is also a sea!” Joachim von Ribbentrop had been trying for years to induce Poland to join Germany in a war against the Soviet Union. Germany would annex from Poland districts by the Baltic Sea; the two countries would invade the USSR; and Poland would be compensated with conquered Soviet territory on the Black Sea."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/dec/03/nazis-soviets-poles-jews/?pagination=false

In January 1939, the Poles agree to give up the corridor and join Operation Barbarossa in exchange for territory in Ukraine. Hitler is uneasy about working with Slavs but is persuaded by Riddentrop to tolerate the Poles. The attack on the Soviet Union occurs in 1939-40. Britain and France keep a policy of neutrality.

What is the result? Who would win? What would be the post war result?

Also if there are any good TL's on Poland in Axis let me know:D
 
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Well, the Germans have only half the number of trucks they had IOTL to sustain their logistics, the Soviets are manning a fully intact Stalin line, a lack of a war in the west means Stalin is not going to dismiss the intelligence reports about a massive German build-up along his border, and the German's axis of advance is severely constrained because he can't use Romanian or Hungary as springboards.

Best case for the Germans, they manage take Smolensk and Kiev before exhausting themselves but, unlike IOTL, don't manage to besiege Leningrad (although they will probably be able to threaten it), threaten Moscow, or seize the Orel-Kharkov and Donbass industrial regions. The Soviets promptly bury them in a even greater sea of men, machines, and guns then IOTL over the next few years. The hammer-and-sickle waves over Berlin 1944.
 
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Well, the Germans have only half the number of trucks they had IOTL to sustain their logistics, the Soviets are manning a fully intact Stalin line, and a lack of a war in the west means Stalin is not going to dismiss the intelligence reports about a massive German build-up along his border.

Best case for the Germans, Berlin falls in 1944. Worst case, 1942.

What happens to Poland then? I'm guessing they try to pull out early and make a deal.

On another note, won't the Soviets be facing the full force of German air power? Isn't that going to make victory alot hard? I wouldn't be surprised if the Germans, with the additional Polish forces can fight themselves to a stalemate. In addition no lend lease so the Soviets aren't getting any help.
 
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Well, the Germans have only half the number of trucks they had IOTL to sustain their logistics...

But the logistics could have been sufficiently alleviated (in the opening stages) with a rail line from Berlin-Poznan-Warszawa-Brest and enough stockpiles (which undoubtedly would have occurred if they pursued Barbarossa.

...the Soviets are manning a fully intact Stalin line...

Which does not mean the Soviets will escape the horrific encirclement that they experienced IOTL 1941.

...and a lack of a war in the west means Stalin is not going to dismiss the intelligence reports about a massive German build-up along his border.

Nothing really supports that statement since historically after the German's "blitzed" through Poland and the West and the war became effectively a standstill with a massive number of German troops building up on the border, Stalin continued to dismiss the vast amounts of intelligence reports he received, as well as the warning the British gave him that the German's would attack extremely soon.

Best case for the Germans, hammer-and-sickle waves over Berlin in 1944. Worst case, 1942.

Barring an Allied intervention against Germany during the war (which is extremely doubtful), this can only be achieved by ASB's, unless you have an actual reason?
 
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What happens to Poland then? I'm guessing they try to pull out early and make a deal.

Even if they switch sides, they'll be made into communists like Romania was IOTL. As far as Stalin (and the West) is concerned, they just proved their hostile intention by aligning with Hitler. The WAllies are going to be more concerned with the fate of Germany (since there is the very real possibility of Soviet troops on the Rhine ITTL) instead of Poland.

On another note, won't the Soviets be facing the full force of German air power? Isn't that going to make victory alot hard?
Not once the VVS gets enough experience and equipment under their belt to wrest air superiority away like IOTL... or when the Germans run out of oil in 1941.

In addition no lend lease so the Soviets aren't getting any help.
Doesn't matter. Most of the big industrial regions that were captured IOTL are still in Soviet hands ITTL. With that, the Soviets have enough industry to not only produce an even larger quantity of guns, tanks, and artillery but also provide the logistics for their army.

In fact without what they looted from Western Europe, without the imports of material from the USSR in 1939-1941, and with their shitty financial situation the German war industry is fucked.

But the logistics could have been sufficiently alleviated (in the opening stages) with a rail line from Berlin-Poznan-Warszawa-Brest.
That does not make up for the fact that the Germans don't have the quantity of trucks they need to provide any degree of motorization to their logistics, not even the partial motorization they had IOTL 1941.

More importantly, without a war in the west to convince Stalin to re-arm faster,
No war in the west probably means Stalin is rearming even more frantically ITTL. After all, the whole point of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was to deflect German attention westward so as to give the time to prepare. ITTL there is no Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, no war in the west, and the Germans have just spent the fall and winter of 1939-1940 building up on the Soviet border. How do you think Stalin is going to interpret that?

you will most probably see a German defensive war,
...
What?

Which does not mean the Soviets will escape the horrific encirclement that they experienced IOTL 1941.
Yes and no. Encirclements will still happen but breaking through the heavy defenses will take the Germans longer, at a greater cost in men and material, to greater exhaustion of the German forces involved, and with more Soviet forces escaping eastward. By the time the Germans have successfully finished sealing and digesting the pockets sufficiently to move eastward again, the Soviets will have set-up a new line of defense with even more men and material behind it.

Nothing really supports that statement since historically after the German's "blitzed" through Poland and the West and the war became effectively a standstill with a massive number of German troops building up on the border, Stalin continued to dismiss the vast amounts of intelligence reports he received, as well as the warning the British gave him that the German's would attack extremely soon
Because Stalin was convinced that Hitler wouldn't attack him while the war with Britain was unfinished, while Stalin was providing Hitler with all the raw materials he wanted, and after Hitler had held up to his end of the bargain in 1939-1940. ITTL, there is no war with Britain, Germany ain't getting jack from Stalin, and Hitler has in fact betrayed the secret protocols of the MR-Pact dividing Poland between Germany and the USSR.

Barring an Allied intervention against Germany during the war (which is extremely doubtful), this can only be achieved by ASB's, unless you have an actual reason?
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Sarcasm aside, you are pretending that a vastly weaker Germany will achieve at least as much success against the USSR as IOTL, which is the minimum required for Germany to even have good odds on achieving a stalemate. There is no basis for that. Germany IOTL 1941 was at it's most powerful relative to the USSR then it ever was going to get. In 1939 and 1940, the relative strength of the two sides were much closer.

Also, some degree of Western aide for the USSR probably will be seen ITTL as the Soviets gain western sympathy for being the victim of unprovoked German aggression and the propaganda fodder subsequent German atrocities on Soviet soil will provide without any of the enmity from Soviet aggression in the 1939-1940 period to cloud the issue. That will dry up once it becomes clear that the Soviets are going to overrun Germany, but by then it will be too late.
 
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nbcman

Donor
What happens to Poland then? I'm guessing they try to pull out early and make a deal.

On another note, won't the Soviets be facing the full force of German air power? Isn't that going to make victory alot hard? I wouldn't be surprised if the Germans, with the additional Polish forces can fight themselves to a stalemate. In addition no lend lease so the Soviets aren't getting any help.

Germany, Poland and Slovakia are no match for the SU in 1939 as the Wehrmacht of September 1939 is nothing like their forces in June 1941. They lack the combat experience of Poland and France plus they lack the captured resources from those conquests. Germany's best hope is to fight to a stalemate in the East until the WAllies decide to intervene and the WAllies overrun most of Germany before the Soviets get there.
 
Germany, Poland and Slovakia are no match for the SU in 1939 as the Wehrmacht of September 1939 is nothing like their forces in June 1941. They lack the combat experience of Poland and France plus they lack the captured resources from those conquests. Germany's best hope is to fight to a stalemate in the East until the WAllies decide to intervene and the WAllies overrun most of Germany before the Soviets get there.

Your forgetting Hungary, Romania and Finland will be invading as well. The Soviet Union preformed awful in the Winter War and is still recovering from purges, so they are still inferior to the Germans. That said the Soviets might still win just lets not make them out to be fantastic at this stage.

Wallies will stay out of this one most likely
 
Your forgetting Hungary, Romania and Finland will be invading as well.

The only reason Stalin attacked Finland was because the western powers were already tied down with their own war. ITTL, there is no war in the west so there is no Winter War and thus no reason for the Finns to attack the USSR. Furthermore, without Norway and Denmark under it's control, Germany has no means of pressuring them into it. The Romanians and Hungarians aligned themselves with the Germans IOTL because they were intimidated by their quick defeat of France. ITTL, France has not fallen so they are still solidly in the French camp.

The Soviet Union preformed awful in the Winter War and is still recovering from purges, so they are still inferior to the Germans.
Without the Germans achieving as much success, that will change even faster then IOTL. There is a reason I specified the German "worst-case" scenario as still taking 2-3 years for the soviets to win despite the Germans only managing to advance 1/3rd of the distance they did IOTL.
 
The only reason Stalin attacked Finland was because the western powers were already tied down with their own war. ITTL, there is no war in the west so there is no Winter War and thus no reason for the Finns to attack the USSR. Furthermore, without Norway and Denmark under it's control, Germany has no means of pressuring them into it. The Romanians and Hungarians aligned themselves with the Germans IOTL because they were intimidated by their quick defeat of France. ITTL, France has not fallen so they are still solidly in the French camp.
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Finland you do have a point but i still think Romania and Hungary would join in. Romania is Poland's ally and Horthy is very anti communist, it wouldn't take a lot to persuade him.
 
Finland you do have a point but i still think Romania and Hungary would join in. Romania is Poland's ally and Horthy is very anti communist, it wouldn't take a lot to persuade him.

We also have the Italians to factor in:rolleyes: If Mussolini puts everything into the East maybe it could have an impact.
 
Is it at all worth considering that the alt Axis may in fact receive support from Britain and France? There had always been people outside of Germany who saw Hitler as a courageous bulwark in the face of Bolshevism. I mean, sure, he's broken his word on Czechoslovakia, but now he's fighting the Soviets and once again peacefully achieved nationalist aims.
 
Also we probably need to factor in Japan, maybe they will take the opportunity to the attack the Soviets in the east.

This is literally just at the end of Khalkhin Gol; the Japanese might want to attack, but they are going to have… problems on the ground. That is not mentioning their commitments in China which sap troop strength available for attack further.

We also have the Italians to factor in:rolleyes: If Mussolini puts everything into the East maybe it could have an impact.

Italian forces are going to be of limited utility, and I find it doubtful that Mussolini will throw in with the Germans like that without actually being in the war with them beforehand.

Is it at all worth considering that the alt Axis may in fact receive support from Britain and France? There had always been people outside of Germany who saw Hitler as a courageous bulwark in the face of Bolshevism. I mean, sure, he's broken his word on Czechoslovakia, but now he's fighting the Soviets and once again peacefully achieved nationalist aims.

Just a few months ago the British and the French considered a common pact with the USSR which only fell apart due to Polish concerns; why are they now going to support an unprovoked German-Polish attack on the USSR? They may dislike communism, but neither love the current German government either. Technically France and the USSR are even allied under the Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance of 1936, although that isn't worth the paper it is written on. I don't think they would give aid to the Soviets, but they're not going to back up the Germans either.

Finland you do have a point but i still think Romania and Hungary would join in. Romania is Poland's ally and Horthy is very anti communist, it wouldn't take a lot to persuade him.

Romania only signed up with Germany when France fell; if they align with Germany and friends they're just giving up their independence. The USSR hasn't done anything to them this time around as they had previously with Bessarabia either. While they may be allied with Poland, Poland has also rejected its alliance with France and is now diametrically opposed to Romanian interests.
 
Poland in the Axis isn't ASB. You just have to make them hate the Soviets more than the Nazis, or have the Nazis temporarily treat them a bit better than they did.

Poland had quite a bit of anti-Semitism and quite a bit of "right-wing" militarism pre-war. They were so anti-Semitic that they actually were training Jewish revolutionaries in the Stern Gang to go and invade Palestine so as to get the Jews out of Europe.
 
Well, the Germans have only half the number of trucks they had IOTL to sustain their logistics, the Soviets are manning a fully intact Stalin line, a lack of a war in the west means Stalin is not going to dismiss the intelligence reports about a massive German build-up along his border, and the German's axis of advance is severely constrained because he can't use Romanian or Hungary as springboards.

Best case for the Germans, they manage take Smolensk and Kiev before exhausting themselves but, unlike IOTL, don't manage to besiege Leningrad (although they will probably be able to threaten it), threaten Moscow, or seize the Orel-Kharkov and Donbass industrial regions. The Soviets promptly bury them in a even greater sea of men, machines, and guns then IOTL over the next few years. The hammer-and-sickle waves over Berlin 1944.
Simply impossible if the USA is not in the war. I'm not a Nazi-wanker by any means but even I can see that.
 
The German oil problems might also be helped some by not fighting the West. The Russians aren't going to blockade Germany with their Navy.
 
Simply impossible if the USA is not in the war. I'm not a Nazi-wanker by any means but even I can see that.

A Soviet Union that avoids losing nearly 5 million in the first year of war along with avoiding the loss of it's biggest centers of industry, raw materials, manpower, and agriculture is easily in a position to smash the Germans all the way back to Berlin, with or without the United States. We're talking about a Soviet Union that has not lost around half of its industrial capacity here.

The German oil problems might also be helped some by not fighting the West.
No, it will become a whole lot worse. Without French loot, Soviet imports, and the ability to twist the Romanian's arms the German's don't have the money to keep buying oil after 1940.
 
Poland Joins Operation Barbarossa

"The Nazi foreign minister had lost his patience with the Poles. “You are stubborn on these maritime questions,” he told Polish diplomats in January 1939. “The Black Sea is also a sea!” Joachim von Ribbentrop had been trying for years to induce Poland to join Germany in a war against the Soviet Union. Germany would annex from Poland districts by the Baltic Sea; the two countries would invade the USSR; and Poland would be compensated with conquered Soviet territory on the Black Sea."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/dec/03/nazis-soviets-poles-jews/?pagination=false

In January 1939, the Poles agree to give up the corridor and join Operation Barbarossa in exchange for territory in Ukraine.

Nope. You may as well consider UK giving Cornwall and Devon to France in exchange of getting central Ireland. It makes similiar amount of sense.

Poland can't give away Polish Pomerania because:

1. It's majority Polish.
2. Polish transport network would need major rework - it was set up to use the mouth of Vistula as window to the outside world. To use other ports, like Klajpeda or Black Sea ports would require laying of thousands of kilometres of railways.
3. It would make Poland Germany's economical puppet.

Hitler is uneasy about working with Slavs but is persuaded by Riddentrop to tolerate the Poles. The attack on the Soviet Union occurs in 1939-40. Britain and France keep a policy of neutrality.

What is the result? Who would win? What would be the post war result?

Also if there are any good TL's on Poland in Axis let me know:D

Poland wasn't interested in attacking USSR.

Poland in the Axis isn't ASB. You just have to make them hate the Soviets more than the Nazis, or have the Nazis temporarily treat them a bit better than they did.

Soviets were hated more than Nazists. Didn't do anything in the end.
 
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